When Nature's Wrath Is History's Reminder

Post by **AntiM** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:41 am

I was trying to find how Diego Garcia fared in the tsunami, and I stumbled across a military board. Yikes. One posting from a soldier was ranting on about the tsunami happened on Christmas for a reason, and why should he care if a bunch of christ haters died?

Hard to fathom such hatred and ignorance.

gigglesnort · Post by **gigglesnort** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:42 am

I feel somewhat sorry for these kinda people; they must live in constant fear of hte hand of god! I imagine life to them being akin to walking a tightrope high above turbulent thrashing water filled with mad hungry alligators.

(Maybe I'm just delusional, but I prefer to believe I have little wings for those unsteady-on-my-feet moments, ethereally speaking anyway.)

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:02 am

Donita wrote:
Simply Joel wrote:January 1, 2005 -- A Time to Mourn -- By DAVID BROOKS
<<snip snip snippity snip>>
Human beings have always told stories to explain deluges such as this. Most cultures have deep at their core a flood myth in which the great bulk of humanity is destroyed and a few are left to repopulate and repurify the human race. In most of these stories, God is meting out retribution, punishing those who have strayed from his path. <<snip snip snippity snip>>
The hospital I work in is Catholic-based. I'm not. The other day I was talking with a woman in the department about the devistation of the tsunami and all those poor unfortunate souls that have died, 33% of which were children, and she commented, "God has a reason for punishing them. They must have done some really bad things in their lives."

My fucking jaw dropped. I was speechless. I was in such shock (at her obvious stupidity) that I was unable to converse with her for even another second. I thought this kind of thinking and believing went out with the Dark Ages. Apparently it has not, which really baffles me.

^
Her faith will crumble from the weight of her stupity. I can only pity

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:49 pm

Donita ... tell her you heard that Osama said the same thing.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:35 pm

St Francis Memorial Hospital (where I was born) has one of the best burn centers in the country, appropriate for a hospital founded a year before the 1906 quake.

I'd hope the impression given by one caregiver posting here isn't taken to be representative, despite that it seems designed to further spread hate.

Donita · Post by **Donita** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:57 am

Someone is reading hate into a post that isn't even there. Anyone who really knows me knows I am not about hate or perpetuating it. I am very proud of where I work. Our heart center is number one in this area. I enjoy working with the gracious, loving nuns that are such an integral part of this hospital. I was simply taken aback by this *one* person's comment about all those people being killed in the tsunami. Why the fuck am I defending myself? On to better things....

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:29 am

Granted, your opinion and philosophies may be different, but the post seemed to be painting that one person's opinion as representative of the hospital and Catholicism in general. I've just seen far too much of "burners" trashing religion over the years to let it stand.

FWIW, phrases such as "Nature's Wrath" are just as repellent to me.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:34 am

Bob, take a break.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:37 am

Jesus Tribblestuffer Christ... now I've offended the Nature Freaks.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:38 am

any religion that advocates hate, condemnation, and self-righteousness on any level deserves to be trashed

Donita · Post by **Donita** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:44 am

Bob wrote:but the post seemed to be painting that one person's opinion as representative of the hospital and Catholicism in general.

That was not my intention or motivation at all. Sorry that it seemed that way to you. One person's religious opinions do not represent a whole. I did not judge this person's opinion -- I was shocked by it. Trying really hard not to get into religion here...I just cannot picture a God/Goddess (of anyone's understanding) that would be so vengeful and hateful that he/she/it would strike down a lightening bolt (or tsunami, in this case) and wipe out hundreds of thousands of innocent children, tourists, people, whatever...

Well, except for Zeus. He was a bad mother fucker.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:16 am

I see phrases like " natures wrath " as the opposite side of, " Natures bounty".

Nature is, it can be seen as horrific, beautiful, threatening, gracious, and anything else you can think of to call something you attribute human traits to. It still doesn’t change the fact that it just IS. Even the most nature loving folks tend to see it in human terms rather than seeing themselves in natures terms and thus put themselves apart from it. Humans are a part of nature and we and all we do are nature, nuclear weapons are natural as are genetically modified organisms, they are natural as we are. Things live, things die, things kill other things, and things fight to survive, its all natural.

That said most creatures know not to shit were they eat. Most social animals look out for each other and try to help the others out when they are having problems. In the end when a comrade is killed by a predator or illness I have no idea if other creatures reflect on their own mortality while considering their fallen comrade. Some people have always sought ways of differentiating themselves from their fallen comrades. Creating personal myths that relieves their feelings of vulnerability, and the stress that brings. No matter how repugnant blaming the victims my seem it is a survival mechanism some of our kind have always used it's natural.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:59 pm

Zule hit that nail squarely on the head... quite well, in fact! Bob is just trying to stir up shit... therefore, on to what Zule said, and fuck Bob...

This universe is what it is. If we venture out into space and establish colonies there, and one of those colonies suffers a massive decompression due to a small, solid object striking it, it is no more "God's Will" than it is an act of malice by one of the inhabitants: it is simply a small object trying to occupy the same space at the same time as the colony. It may be tragic, but it is the result of man's will and reality colliding. The same with the tsunami.

Reach for this one... if there hadn't been several million people living along the coast of the affected region (massive population) the death toll would have been much lower (less quantitative pain). HOWEVER, since we now number over seven billion on this planet (a number I, personally, find obscene) then we are going to experience massive casualties, no matter what the disaster may be! We are poised to see even higher HUMAN death tolls in the future, because there are more of us on the planet now than there ever have been in recorded history. Tragic? Yes. Inevitable? Possibly... at least until we learn to be responsible for the amount of people, humans, that we have on this place at any one time.

And, going back to what Zule said: when one of our brothers died in 'Nam, we would sit around that night (or whenever we had a chance to) and dis him. It was his fault, he should have been paying attention, he was weak, he was unlucky, he was stupid... we even had a Born Again Christian from Detroit who claimed it was "God's Will" (he was still a good killer, and a brother). That is the way we are. We will defend our own survival against those who didn't survive. We need to, to justify our existence.

Why did the people die in that tsunami? Well, they were there when the waves (a natural phenominom) washed around them, that's all. Tragic? Yes. Divine? Maybe (I don't have all the facts on 'divine' yet). Could it happen to any of us? You betcha'! It's the way of Life.

And Life is still Good!

Sam...

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:24 pm

I have also noted a tendancy by some to get involved with a little exaggeration. When you hear "one of the worlds worst disasters in history" please translate that into "one of the worlds worst disasters in my political career". I can think of two earthquakes that were worse in terms of loss of life right off the top of my head. Both were in China. One caused 830,000 deaths and the other 655,000. The second one was in 1976.

I don't want to say that there isn't terrible suffering and that we shouldn't help those in need. What I am saying, though, is that I tend to be a bit cynical and expect politicians to use a bit of hyperbole in order to make themselves look better for the next election cycle.

Yes, it is terrible. No, it isn't the worst that has ever happened or even the worst that probably ever will happen. There have been and are going to be worse and more widespread disasters. A volcanic eruption that tosses enough crap into the atmosphere to cause crop failure has happened before and is going to cause global misery and death and no amount of money is going to prevent it because you can't pay the earth to grow a crop or the atmosphere to allow more sunlight.

So I guess my point is ... yes, they are suffering, yes, we can and should help with whatever we can. But let's try to keep a lid on the hyperbole, shall we, and address it for what it really is. With one or two exceptions, the countries hit with this disaster are not devastated. Their main industry and communications and agriculture are just fine. With the exception of a portion of their tourism the countries as a whole may actually see a strong long-term local economic benefit from reconstruction.

Countries such as the Maldives should probably stop to consider their viability. This is going to happen to them again. Do they want to continue to experiance it? There are nations in the Pacific that should be considering the same thing.

The lesson we should be taking long-term is prevention of this happening again. That will at least give some small meaning to those that lost their lives. If through their deaths a warning system is put in place, new sturdier construction is moved further inland from the coast, and such an event in the future is prevented or greatly mitigated, they will have a chance to serve as heros to future generations.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 3:34 pm

By the way, for all the athiests around here...
http://www.livescience.com/othernews/at ... 41210.html
Dunno... he may be on to something...

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:32 pm

any religion that advocates hate, condemnation, and self-righteousness on any level deserves to be trashed

That's a wish I personally like to see granted by the universe.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) that'd mean the end to a good number of religions acoss the globe.

I for one could live with that.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:36 pm

Atheist Philosopher, 81, Now Believes in God

Not at all uncommon. The guy's probably taking stock of his mortality and trying to stack the deck in his favor just in case a lifetime's worth of non-belief doesn't hit 21 on the ole cosmic poker table.

Enlightemnent at gunpoint might be another way of describie his new found faith. Not that that's bad or anything.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:43 pm

Badger wrote:
Atheist Philosopher, 81, Now Believes in God
Not at all uncommon. The guy's probably taking stock of his mortality and trying to stack the deck in his favor just in case a lifetime's worth of non-belief doesn't hit 21 on the ole cosmic poker table.

Enlightemnent at gunpoint might be another way of describie his new found faith. Not that that's bad or anything.

Or... he's connected some dots that his earlier belief system (atheism) wouldn't allow him to connect... in the article it does say that he doesn't believe in the survival of the 'soul'... I don't think he's really planning on making a 'deal' with 'god'...

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:48 pm

The spectacle of 30,000 odd "burners" telling the 2,000,000,000-odd residents of southern Asia where the fuck to get off the karmic wheel is ludicrous in the extreme. Check your emotional baggage & Leisure Worship at Bangkok Customs, pls.

CoworkerLurker · Post by **CoworkerLurker** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:51 pm

Badger wrote:
any religion that advocates hate, condemnation, and self-righteousness on any level deserves to be trashed
That's a wish I personally like to see granted by the universe.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) that'd mean the end to a good number of religions acoss the globe.

I for one could live with that.

Does it have to be a religion? That just seems so limited. Can we include other philosophical systems? "Movements"?

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:00 pm

The spectacle of 30,000 odd "burners" telling the 2,000,000,000-odd residents of southern Asia where the fuck to get off the karmic wheel is ludicrous in the extreme.

I don't see anyone here saying anything particularly derogatory about the southern Asians belief systems.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:12 pm

CoworkerLurker wrote:
Badger wrote:
any religion that advocates hate, condemnation, and self-righteousness on any level deserves to be trashed
That's a wish I personally like to see granted by the universe.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) that'd mean the end to a good number of religions acoss the globe.

I for one could live with that.
Does it have to be a religion? That just seems so limited. Can we include other philosophical systems? "Movements"?

no, because they don't for the most part claim to be mouthpieces of God

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:21 pm

Or... he's connected some dots that his earlier belief system (atheism) wouldn't allow him to connect... in the article it does say that he doesn't believe in the survival of the 'soul'... I don't think he's really planning on making a 'deal' with 'god'...

Maybe he's just gotten senile? Or maybe he's trying to join the Masons or the Boy Scouts (for both of which you must admit the existence of a supreme power). Maybe he's just getting OLD and can't deal with all the new scientific evidence. The complexity of DNA and biology do not mandate that one posit an intelligent creator. There are plenty of other explanations for the abundance, complexity, and very existence of life on earth that one does not need to suppose some sort of all-powerful creator in order to explain it. For further readings, see Richard Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene" and especially "The Blind Watchmaker," which provides illucidating ways of thinking about biology as evidence for/against God, and discusses some evidence and arguments in detail.

As many people get older, they become more conservative. Some people embrace scientific and technological adances, and some people are confused or overwhelmed by them. Flew simply can't imagine how life could become so complex by the machinery of natural selection alone, but others with more sight can, have, and can show at least SOME evidence of how it happened.

There, you've done it. You got me started on "Intelligent Design." Bah.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:25 pm

I don't see anyone here saying anything particularly derogatory about the southern Asians belief systems.

[Raise hand, wave frantically] Ooh, ooh, I will. All religions are fairy tales, designed to keep the rich rich and the poor poor. What does every religion have in common? The belief that if you stay content with your lot and don't try to get any more porridge, you'll be rewarded.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:30 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:
I don't see anyone here saying anything particularly derogatory about the southern Asians belief systems.
[Raise hand, wave frantically] Ooh, ooh, I will. All religions are fairy tales, designed to keep the rich rich and the poor poor. What does every religion have in common? The belief that if you stay content with your lot and don't try to get any more porridge, you'll be rewarded.

Horseshit!

They may have that at the periphery, where the political animals roam, trying to get power over others, but at the heart of each and every one of them is a sincere desire to know the truth. Jesus! Who the hell bit you on the ass? Christians? Buddhists? Druids?

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:33 pm

All of the above. Anything that tells a person that their fate is in the hands of anyone but themselves. All forms of tyranny over the minds of men. Religion may have been necessary earlier--evolutionarily, I mean--for guaranteed survival of the hive...but we're beyond it now. Nietsche said "God is dead," but what I think he meant was "God is extinct."

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:34 pm

Looking back on my life, I just wish it were more of a fucking, camping, trip. Any time I spent on earthquake engineering was obviously wasted on people who think it was an act of God that turned their boathouse into a houseboat.

CoworkerLurker · Post by **CoworkerLurker** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:46 pm

cowboyangel wrote:
CoworkerLurker wrote: Does it have to be a religion? That just seems so limited. Can we include other philosophical systems? "Movements"?
no, because they don't for the most part claim to be mouthpieces of God

That makes sense.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:46 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:All of the above. Anything that tells a person that their fate is in the hands of anyone but themselves. All forms of tyranny over the minds of men. Religion may have been necessary earlier--evolutionarily, I mean--for guaranteed survival of the hive...but we're beyond it now. Nietsche said "God is dead," but what I think he meant was "God is extinct."

Agreed... but getting pissed off at people because they don't have the evolutionary development to think for themselves and not follow the group is... well, a little disingenuous. We are part of a group that has certain (nebulous) beliefs, don't we? Don't we align ourselves with others... and then dis others that don't believe the way we do? If we were in power, would we outlaw other beliefs that piss us off? But, that's just religion.

And as far as 'fate' goes... call it what you will, some live, some die, and there are incidents that can be defined as 'fate' that affect that. I've seen it. Call it 'accident' 'karma' 'will of God' (loaded phrase), but they are all pretty much the same thing. It may just be the whole space/time thingy (the bullet occupied the same space as his head at the same time) but some people are 'lucky' and some are not.

Sorry... I refuse any belief system that anyone (even you) attempts to place on me. Vehiment atheism is, to me, just another form of belief.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:52 pm

samtzu wrote:...We are part of a group that has certain (nebulous) beliefs, don't we? Don't we align ourselves with others... and then dis others that don't believe the way we do? If we were in power, would we outlaw other beliefs that piss us off?...

Whaddaya mean "we", whitey?