Hi! Can we park our RV in your camp and then you bugger off?

[ygmir]

what rules are they breaking exactly?

this

[Elorrum]

Decommodification
In order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to protect our culture from such exploitation. We resist the substitution of consumption for participatory experience.

No rules broken. placement doesn’t care… you can argue these people are essential to the camps infrastructure, sell them them a WAP and a stewards ticket while you are at it. We stand ready for nothing and we protect nothing and we resist nothing. Only suckers worry about principles and guidelines. It won’t hold water in your FFA Roberts rules of order competition, so you win. Take the money and enjoy your rave.

[The Rod]

lets see.. so the decommodification thing I see your point. Kinda. By these burners offering to pay "fees" they are either in direct contradiction of this principle by trying to "buy" a parking place. OR there is a language/cultural barrier and what they really mean is dues. That they are willing to contribute to the camps operating expenses as members.

That's not a transaction, that is communal effort. But we don't know which it is and so far we've spent an entire page making assumptions and it doesn't look like anyone has engaged, er participated, with these mass-emailing, flagrant principle breakers on holiday to ruin our precious party. Rather than, in the spirit of immediacy, try and include these nefarious bad burners in any sort of conversation about why their approach ruffled so many feathers, and or how they could become more self reliant, we are choosing to derelict our obligations and civic responsibilities. We could be gifting these poor unfortunate souls with some enlightening experiences or education about what makes our event so special. But instead we're just expressing our grievances and drawing an equivalence between them and the sherpa gate camps of the mid 2000 teens.

Which, if you recall, I was right there in the trenches eviscerating Elderberry with everyone else back when we were fighting the Burning Man Camp Culture Wars. When BMORG board members were accepting shady back-room deals to place entire camps inside monolithic RV walls to keep their clients safe from burnery riff raff. When entire camps were built to scam (like real scams not just hippy flakey shit) people like our hapless euro friends here. This is not that day my friend. This is, at very absolute worst, a couple euro-ravers who just don't get it. I really, really, really, don't think that they are the demons you're making them out to be. But if it makes you feel better you can sleep with the lights on tonight.

[Lonesomebri]

Edgy suckers will fight tooth and nail for these international party people, not to actually take them in, all talk, but then nickle and dime real people, to justify being edgy, and afford cliche camp culture. Such an act.

As the camps contacted by the trollers responded here, no thanks. I respect that, and don't need any go-fers quoting rules to justify squat. Go patrol the fence or get a European handjob, something even less useful. The original poster is correct. Now argue some more about how they should be forced to take in international party people because what ever bullshit you muster.

What is so hard to understand that this poor camp lead made a good decision?

[Lonesomebri]

One wonders if alt and AntiM, after all the big brain bigdickinhandwaving, have seen the error of their ways and reached out to these international party people? Surely with so much logic and posturing aligned against them, they have had a change of heart, how could they not? Isn't this what the thread is about? Convincing the people who were approached (look at the original post) to give in? Did they? Were the champions of the international party people successful? Of course we know that some camp looking for a quick buck took them in. But I am curious here. Was there a change of heart, an invite sent? Or do these dedicated camp lead Burners need more convincing?

[The Rod]

This thread was about Alt ASKING if he was overreacting. So some people said, "yes you might be overreacting" and that turned into "big brain dickwaving being forced to take in international party people".

Ask for input. Receive input that doesn't support confirmation bias. Become a victim. Simple formula. Immediate results. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Meanwhile there's actual plug and play camps still running amok.

No one is trying to convince these poor harassed camp leads to change their ways, just maybe provide an alternate perspective to the "good burner/bad burner" dichotomy playing out as jaded veterans act as arbiters and martyred protectors of a sacred culture under attack. Camp lead made the best decision for their camp, and then asked what the community thought and didn't like some of the responses. Add some snark and we have an active thread.

Eplaya working just as god intended.

[Elorrum]

"good burner/bad burner" dichotomy playing out as jaded veterans act as arbiters and martyred protectors of a sacred culture under attack.

No, I know I was only ever a customer. I overly committed myself to a product I loved. Even Larry admitted to accidentally creating what seemed to be an impossible business model: tell your customers they are participants. They will stand in for employees, work for free, even provide all the materials, and build everything, while they pay for the opportunity. The principles are a wishful construct that is actually a quality control mission statement.

The pay to play starts with an expectation. People being able to buy-in at will dilutes the willing and knowledgeable builder group. I think we only disagree on when the teachable moment is. I think it should be before people get there. The spam for good placement is a clever strategy.

Thanks for the wake-up. I’d appreciate a truce. I’m really priced out at this point. No good point in me being jaded and bitter, but I think it takes at least a year to wear off.

[The Rod]

Truce? None needed, I was under the impression we were all friends here having some, uh, colorful debate about the teachable moments of our shared culture… and an opportunity to explore what the principles mean, sprinkle in a few years of pent up burner anxiety and voila! Snarky debate.

Truce accepted. You’re cordially invited to Camp THREAT (6&D) to either continue or settle once and for all the plug and play debate over some strong drinks. Undoubtedly not as strong as the opinions expressed in thread but we will try our darndest!

[Savannah]

Hey guys,

We are all just trying to make things work for everyone and all creatures in the whole entire world, for a long, long time.

The playa is a good place to start.

First you assume these people are ignorant of what they are doing. You go on to tell us to make no assumptions, only those assumptions that you support. Last you assume we all share good honorable intentions to benefit all, as if. I'm giving the original international party people the benefit of the doubt, they aren't ignorant. They asked for what they wanted. Everyone dancing around that is assuming. Why blame culture and language? It's a weird bigotry. These folks asked for a place to park, to plug and play, tap into what they want from a camp, without responsibility. It wasn't confusing. They handled getting airfare and scoring tickets, repeatedly. Why is it so easy to blame culture and language, instead of respect what these international party people asked for? People who can learn multiple languages are very smart, I feel. Not ignorant

So these ignorant schmucks have scored tickets to the most coveted sold out event on Earth, 3 times! Now they're bring an RV and truck with tow capacity. Where did everyone get the idea that these successful and smart guys are confused or misunderstood in any way?

Agreed 100%. They're experienced. They know what they're asking for. And people are not obligated to give it to them, or even accept their offer. Many camps wouldn't.

There is plenty of open land and good parking spaces. These people don't need a dedicated camp.

Look, I am not saying you are wrong, and I am not saying I am right. All I am saying is, before we form the lynch mob, maybe asking a few simple questions of the people sending the email is in order.

Is that what a lynch mob is now? . . . Reasonably civil debate and minor argument? That would have been lovely!

No one is trying to keep them out of the event. We're arguing about how many camps would not like people like this, which is significant. So the onus is on the Seeker to be less foolish and scattershot (i.e., don't be an idiot and message AntiM's petite camp!) and find a camp who finds their money + lack of responsibility a good fit. These people? . . . are clearly Not Trying.

It would be like messaging Stag Camp and asking if they have an electrical grid and a meal plan. It's openly offensive and ignorant, is what it is.

I would like to request some openness, seeking of clarification, and suspension of judgment until someone is proven guilty.

Welcome, Solutionist.

This is not a court of law. ePlayans or other Burners are not obligated to "prove someone guilty" before deciding "Wow, these sound like people who pay a lot to openly USE other Burners, and will be unpleasant campmates."

Radical Inclusion: Anyone may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger. No prerequisites exist for participation in our community.

"We welcome the stranger" does not mean "Come mess up our specific camp of limited physical space with your enormous RV + your ignorance, laziness and negligence."

. . . However, these people in the RV sound like a risk in that direction.

I don’t know these folks looking for a spot, but please, can we be openminded, hospitable and supportive as a starting point?

We welcome them to the event, and to this board.

However, I am happy to elaborate further.

The people seeking a camp are not virgins like yourself. They are experienced people who are offering money so that they don't have to participate in a camp they don't even need.

You've mentioned that English is not your first language. While your English is excellent, I will explain that their use of:

"and of course help out with camp duties if you wish", means

"We don't want to help out, and will pay extra $$ not to have to do so."

IF YOU WISH? . . . for God's sake.

That is terrible.

[Skuzzy61]

Savannah, I chose not to make assumptions about their intentions from one email, regardless of how it is worded. They could be the biggest asshats on the planet, or not. I will not read into that email what could be easily answered by asking them a couple of questions.

If the question is simply, "is it wrong for someone to want to buy a parking place?", then I agree. It is wrong and should not be accepted by anyone.

Maybe my interpretation of this discussion is missing the mark. I took it to read as a judgement of the people asking the question and not the question itself. If that is the case, then my bad.

By the way, the reference to "lynch mob" was hyperbole on my part, not meant to be taken literally.

[Lonesomebri]

Yeah, actually, at this point, it is personal. I don't like them as individuals. Even if, of course, we are discussing their actions, as individuals, and emblematic of a larger issue.

As an aside, an interpretation of a discussion is... wait for it... an assumption! Assuming bad intentions based on evidence? Not gonna believe this, but that's a legitimate assumption just like good assumptions based on fairy dust. Accurate assumptions can save a lot of painful time. Humans exist by assuming. It's the wrong assumptions you wanna look out for and avoid.

Now we can all get back to handling our own personal relationships, and building the fabulous Burn, with the same grace and dignity shown here. Or, like the international party people, just throw money at it.

[Skuzzy61]

Interpretation is not the same as assuming.

[goodleaf]

“just maybe provide an alternate perspective to the "good burner/bad burner" dichotomy playing out as jaded veterans act as arbiters and martyred protectors of a sacred culture under attack”

I’m reading eplaya as an entertaining way to procrastinate on my packing (sooo many bins and ziplocks). Gotta agree with the poster who said the above. Some of the veterans here give me flashbacks of some of the Americans I encountered when I moved to the US as a teenager.

[Lonesomebri]

“just maybe provide an alternate perspective to the "good burner/bad burner" dichotomy playing out as jaded veterans act as arbiters and martyred protectors of a sacred culture under attack”

I’m reading eplaya as an entertaining way to procrastinate on my packing (sooo many bins and ziplocks). Gotta agree with the poster who said the above. Some of the veterans here give me flashbacks of some of the Americans I encountered when I moved to the US as a teenager.

An alternative is to not ask every camp you can find if you can ride on their hard work and time, without any participation, for a few bucks you offer. Don't do that. Understand? Try to actually participate in what you join. Or don't join a camp. You know what's funny, some of the jaded veteran Burners are the international party guys in the RV. That point keeps being missed intentionally.

[Token]

"good burner/bad burner" dichotomy playing out as jaded veterans act as arbiters and martyred protectors of a sacred culture under attack”

This is a keeper!

Fucking ‘sacred’!!!