philosophical discussions

All things outside of Burning Man.
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some seeing eye
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Re: philosophical discussions

Post by some seeing eye » Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:27 pm

ygmir wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:21 am
so the conflict:

some burners: we wish TTITD would go back to the old days, less rules, less safe, free to do as you please
other burners: we want more rules, and restrictions, because we don't feel safe, and we don't like how others do it.

Thing is, some were the first, and now they seem to be the second. They want rules so the things they don't like, don't happen.
Some want to "keep Burning Man potentially fatal", as long as it's within their comfort zone and with their approval.
Some resent others who have more, spend more, or "do it wrong" because it's not in their vision of "doing it right".

To me, it seems the way of humans: Something is new, it's limited in scope, fun and everyone is on *mostly*, the same page. Others discover it, see it as "cool" or "fun" or "edgy" and join in. Eventually, enough come that some want to change it, to meet their vision, and at some point, they are successful, and then the originals, are pushed out. It happens with cities, societies, events, games...I see it as human nature. Not that I like it, but it can't be a surprise to anyone.
Well stated. I have studied people using anthropology techniques as part of my projects, including mobile phone projects and overseas projects.

The culture of the participants changes, and that can change the event.

There are fuzzy boundries, going beyond which, financially and existentially endanger the event through government intervention.

Marian is the brains of the post-John Law event, but Larry was the philosopher. I think he saw the event as a big organic experiment unfolding on its own. And I think he was curious to see what it would do. I don't think he was interested at all in controlling it.

Larry wrote down the 10 principles, in 2004, extracting his perception of the event as it had evolved to that point. It was originally written to guide the new regionals. The Cocophony Society OG was diluted or faded by then. It was just luck or Crimson Rose's insight that Dada art was replaced by open source art.

I think one of the weaknesses of the organizers is that they are still Larry-thinking, they only react when a problem has already become serious, and there may be some legal department strategy influencing things.

If I were the Org, which I am not, I would add more experienced-burner qualiative research anthropologists to the Census department. Then I would roll that up through a permanent Cultural Direction cross-department group, including the board. One would hope that process could correct direction before it becomes large and hard to correct. They are building a younger and more diverse board, which is good, but the inner founder board may not be with us forever.
ygmir wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:21 am
I see the only resolution, is for those who don't like what it's become, whatever "it" is, to break off and start anew.
new rules, new restrictions, more oversight, are going to do, exactly what the event was intended to avoid... IMHO.
I hope an un-BLM-licensed alt event evolves outside the closure zone, same time, BRC and the alt within view of each other at a distance. My impression is that the Regionals evolve slowly enough that the criticicms of BRC culture have not become a controversy.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

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ygmir
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Re: philosophical discussions

Post by ygmir » Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:17 pm

some seeing eye wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:27 pm
ygmir wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:21 am
so the conflict:

some burners: we wish TTITD would go back to the old days, less rules, less safe, free to do as you please
other burners: we want more rules, and restrictions, because we don't feel safe, and we don't like how others do it.

Thing is, some were the first, and now they seem to be the second. They want rules so the things they don't like, don't happen.
Some want to "keep Burning Man potentially fatal", as long as it's within their comfort zone and with their approval.
Some resent others who have more, spend more, or "do it wrong" because it's not in their vision of "doing it right".

To me, it seems the way of humans: Something is new, it's limited in scope, fun and everyone is on *mostly*, the same page. Others discover it, see it as "cool" or "fun" or "edgy" and join in. Eventually, enough come that some want to change it, to meet their vision, and at some point, they are successful, and then the originals, are pushed out. It happens with cities, societies, events, games...I see it as human nature. Not that I like it, but it can't be a surprise to anyone.
Well stated. I have studied people using anthropology techniques as part of my projects, including mobile phone projects and overseas projects.

The culture of the participants changes, and that can change the event.

There are fuzzy boundries, going beyond which, financially and existentially endanger the event through government intervention.

Marian is the brains of the post-John Law event, but Larry was the philosopher. I think he saw the event as a big organic experiment unfolding on its own. And I think he was curious to see what it would do. I don't think he was interested at all in controlling it.

Larry wrote down the 10 principles, in 2004, extracting his perception of the event as it had evolved to that point. It was originally written to guide the new regionals. The Cocophony Society OG was diluted or faded by then. It was just luck or Crimson Rose's insight that Dada art was replaced by open source art.

I think one of the weaknesses of the organizers is that they are still Larry-thinking, they only react when a problem has already become serious, and there may be some legal department strategy influencing things.

If I were the Org, which I am not, I would add more experienced-burner qualiative research anthropologists to the Census department. Then I would roll that up through a permanent Cultural Direction cross-department group, including the board. One would hope that process could correct direction before it becomes large and hard to correct. They are building a younger and more diverse board, which is good, but the inner founder board may not be with us forever.
ygmir wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:21 am
I see the only resolution, is for those who don't like what it's become, whatever "it" is, to break off and start anew.
new rules, new restrictions, more oversight, are going to do, exactly what the event was intended to avoid... IMHO.
I hope an un-BLM-licensed alt event evolves outside the closure zone, same time, BRC and the alt within view of each other at a distance. My impression is that the Regionals evolve slowly enough that the criticicms of BRC culture have not become a controversy.
well said.
and to be fair, IIRC, Larry had said the "big event" was supposed to be temporary, and that it should split off into regionals. I think he saw, back then anyway, what would happen as it grew and "progressed". I do, also, think he and the ORG lost sight of a lot of that idea, as the popularity grew, with fame and money ensuing...
YGMIR

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Simon of the Playa
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Re: philosophical discussions

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:19 am

from a friend:

"it may be time to discuss what a 21st century zone trip would be"



indeed...
Frida Be You & Me

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some seeing eye
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Re: philosophical discussions

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:15 pm

Found on FB, not mine
Screen Shot 2022-10-28 at 4.39.35 PM.jpeg
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increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

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