The basic problem with modern BRC

[Elorrum]

The fly project is priced out of inclusivity in my thinking. It needs to generate some revenue to be maintained. When they charged for volunteer work weekends, (granted this may be for food, but a free lunch in return for donated labor and transport, does not seem unreasonable.) I started giving it the side eye. I live close enough, but it is still a 4 hr round trip, and the pay to volunteer events stopped being overnighters. One day I may pony up the fee to see it, but It’s a retreat for the movers and shakers, not the hoi polloi. Stewards of the black rock desert just adopted a subscription model for membership, same as Friends of black rock high rock. Paid participation is the rule.

[ygmir]

we see the beast,
we reject the beast,
we become the beast.

[Lonesomebri]

...so... was there no moop this year? Seems like the moop map and shaming was a big part of the corrective culture in the past. Is moop now just a institutional infrastructure issue? Instead of accountability and public shaming, are dumpsters going to be the way? You know, the way other "festivals" don't have moop because they don't have leave no trace.

The big sound camps, that by their very nature create moop, are given a break, because otherwise it calls into question their very nature of creating moop. Years back, I enjoyed connecting talented dj Paris Hilton's boutique pnp to the giant moop dump recorded out where I used to camp. It was if I was looking at facts and evidence.

I know the hippies, libs, pnp's, sellouts, and feel good vibe people are against the public shaming over moop, so maybe they managed to bury that previous significant public show.

I've seen personal interest articles on the great people working out on the playa, but just haven't seen a moop map for this year. What am I missing?

[Elorrum]

No report yet. Last resto log was Oct 4. New participants voted with their moop that the desert isn’t where they really want to go, because the services suck. They’ll pay whatever, you know, if somebody would just take care of it all, ebikes, generators, showers, air conditioning, mvs, rvs, shiftpods and dumpsters. For whatever reason it seems many really didn’t want to be bothered. If it was too hard at the end, it didn’t happen. To stop and remove stakes and lags would be a red, right? Very time consuming. Now if theses were placed camps with DGS, then some naming shame, some “No soup for you!” seems reasonable for next year. We’ll see. I’m wondering how the final blm inspection went. Is Burning Man a too big to fail event?

“We are seeing a LOT of tent stakes, cement stakes, rebar, and lag bolts. It’s HUGE this year. It looks like a lot of people staked things down or drilled them in but for whatever reason didn’t take them out. Maybe people forgot some, or they didn’t have the energy to take them out, or the batteries on their drills were dead by the end of the event. But there are a lot of them stuck in the ground and we’re having to yank them out ourselves. That’s the number one unique thing to 2022. We’ve never seen this many of that category. We’re also seeing a bunch of rugs and carpets for whatever reason. Also cardboard”

https://journal.burningman.org/2022/10/ ... aps-it-up/

[some seeing eye]

New participants voted with their moop that the desert isn’t where they really want to go, because the services suck. They’ll pay whatever, you know, if somebody would just take care of it all, ebikes, generators, showers, air conditioning, mvs, rvs, shiftpods and dumpsters. For whatever reason it seems many really didn’t want to be bothered. If it was too hard at the end, it didn’t happen. To stop and remove stakes and lags would be a red, right? Very time consuming. Now if theses were placed camps with DGS, then some naming shame, some “No soup for you!” seems reasonable for next year.

The BORG really needs a very personal come to Jesus discussion with camp leaders. The problem camps need to be on probation for 2023, and hopefully the weather will be better.

Someone should build a wheeled metal detector rake/pushbroom, say about 10' wide to scan camps for any metal before they check out.

[Elorrum]

Is there a check out procedure? I saw some big fails here and online of folks needing a lot of help leaving and posting about what huge moop items they were “gifting” since they could not pack their vehicles or containers. How many brand new impact drivers were purchased as essentially disposable items with no clue about what was needed to charge them? I saw many informational posts saying that “only lags work.” That Jackery 10 watt panel didn’t do all that was wished for.

Theme camps are now established primarily for ticket access, and “personal comfort and convenience”, so, a lot of unprepared “leaders” aren’t acculturating folks as new as they are. (Big wallets and no experience.) The cultural direction journal states: “Theme camps allocate their collective focus, time, and resources primarily toward their public contributions rather than personal comfort and convenience. Conveniences are used in service of the camp’s contribution, which adds to the vibrancy of the city.“ https://journal.burningman.org/?s=Cultural+direction

Yes, some hard discussions need to be had.

I wish they might split off the pro d.j. rave festival to a paved near off highway venue somewhere with electricity and plumbing. Trying to make that facility in the desert is a ruinous approach.

[Elorrum]

.

[Lonesomebri]

Again, where is the progressive moop map? If the sweeps are finding things, why is no updated section by section map being released, as is done every other year? Why is this year different? I thought maybe I was just missing the info. This really seems like a conscious choice to bury those results.

[The Rod]

The check out process is online, *required* if you want to return as a camp, a “post playa report* survey asking for you to prove that you contributed to BRC. A bunch of silly essay questions about how great your camp was and a chance to tattle tell on your neighbors.

Next up is a Letter of Intent which is basically what the theme camp application USED to be, and then a few weeks later we gotta fill out the the actual application which now features a bunch of supposedly high minded philosophical prompts to “have the conversation”.

So they’re trying to “have the conversation” but unsurprisingly the approach of bureaucracy and extra applications is not having the intended effect if half of BRC couldn’t bother to get their stakes out of the ground.

Culture is more than “a conversation”, and this forum has hosted more than a few conversations over the years concerning the deterioration of burning man’s culture. We don’t need to wonder why or how anymore.

[Elorrum]

Culture is more than “a conversation”, and this forum has hosted more than a few conversations over the years concerning the deterioration of burning man’s culture. We don’t need to wonder why or how anymore.

I guess you are right. The Bmorg is having annual ongoing discussions and group breakouts, about cultural direction, while a lot of people are flying in to Reno with a suitcase and a dream, no planned expectations, thinking they can rideshare an Uber to BRC, be fed, shaded, bathed, housed, and drugged to the gills upon arrival, no problem.

[some seeing eye]

unsurprisingly the approach of bureaucracy and extra applications is not having the intended effect if half of BRC couldn’t bother to get their stakes out of the ground.

Culture is more than “a conversation”, and this forum has hosted more than a few conversations over the years concerning the deterioration of burning man’s culture. We don’t need to wonder why or how anymore.

Not only forms. The organizers know there is a problem with acculturation. Through placement, outside services, and after, the MOOP map, they should know which the problem camps are and they inspect them in person in BRC. It is not working and it is important it work.

It may be that camps have commodified business plans which are compromising the culture, and hopefully that is not the case upstairs.

[Papa Bear]

Through placement, outside services, and after, the MOOP map, they should know which the problem camps are and they inspect them in person in BRC. It is not working and it is important it work.

I would caution anyone not to draw too strong a set of conclusions from the first year back after two events were cancelled due to a pandemic.

It was a rough year - the weather was harsh, multiple camps had COVID and other illnesses sweep through, and quite a few vets who would usually be there helping run things took the year off. Lots of departments were short on staff, and some of the staff they did get was less experienced than in years past. Lots of theme camps were missing key members, or had fewer hands than they'd planned for.

Even among the crusty old veterans, quite a few (including me) found themselves relearning basic stuff that had been second nature ("wait... how the fuck is this important thing supposed to fit together again?"), and that made everything that much harder.

From an organizational perspective, it's also worth pointing out that many of the initiatives that came out of the Cultural Direction Setting discussions are quite new - as in, circa 2018/2019 new - particularly with respect to Placement. Some of them are publicly visible (like the new restrictions on OSS, the banning of paid labor, the new "encouraged conversations" in the placement application process, the Camp Support Network and PEERS organizations, etcetera), but some are very much not.

There's a well known maxim (I've heard it called "Harley's Law") that suggests it takes three years for any new initiative at BRC to get to the point where it works well. I'd amend that to say "three burns", and honestly, I think that in a number of cases the canceled event years set some of that progress back at least a year or so. You can plan changes all you want, but no matter how careful you are, you don't know what's really going to work until you actually hit playa and try to execute them during the event. No plan survives first contact with the playa.

That all said, stuff is and has been happening, it's just highly unusual for the org to announce anything to do with specific camps publicly. They did so with Gypsy Flower Power and Humano, but historically those were very much the exceptions rather than the rule.

As for the speculated/reported moop issues, I'm guessing (and *just* guessing, no insider knowledge here) that they surprised the org as much as they did everyone else. After all, the moop map has been looking better and better pretty much every single year prior to now, so it wouldn't have been obvious there was a lurking problem. If I had to hazard a guess, most people were far more focused on trying to shut down PnPs and deal with some of the other stuff that came out of CDS than they were on reminding people not to moop.

If anything, I wonder if some of the new policies might have helped exacerbate moop problems? For example, could some camps that had gotten used to relying on OSS for RV deliveries and other conveniences have stumbled trying to make the transition to handling it all themselves. Likewise, could camps have added extra work for themselves by trying to bring in bikes (rented off playa from PBR or wherever) for members that would normally have done it individually, without really understanding how much extra effort they were piling on - especially if they were already shorthanded? When people are exhausted and burnt out, they get sloppy and make mistakes.

To be clear, I'm not saying those policy changes are bad, or that any camp should be given a free pass for failing to plan or adapt quickly enough. I'm just saying that in hindsight, I'm not overly surprised that the adjustment period might be a bit rough, especially in conjunction with the weather/contagious disease issues.

[The Rod]

I dunno, I wonder about the years-long policy of marketing the event in a bid to "spread the culture" coupled with their goal of 40% (or some other other silly number ICR) first timer attendance every year what it might have to do with so many people who don't fully understand the nature of the event being at the event. We wailed and gnashed our teeth while they paraded around rubbing elbows with the rich and famous, imposing parking fees and boasting about Burning Man changing the world but maybe what they were really doing was providing the conduit for the world to change Burning Man.

The organizers know there is a problem with acculturation, fucking news flash alert the press. Breakouts and growth oriented retreats at the Gated Community to discuss the culture crisis! The solution: Blame the peasants!

I think OSS is a double edged sword, things like resource delivery and an easier time coordinating with RV/Porto pumpers might free up more time and energy for a camp to focus on a better MOOP strategy or Interaction. Does the potential benefit outweigh the cultural cost? I wouldn't know- they didn't invite me to the retreat.

2022 was exceptionally brutal, as mentioned by PapaBear, weather and pandemic fallout effects. Those factors didn't seem to be taken into account in the Blog post deriding us, the commoners, for losing our tent stakes. I don't know how many of you had to deal with trying to get fuel, delivered or at Hell, its not exactly like the services running BRC were shining examples of having their shit together either.

The experts must have concluded the weather and other challenges are much less likely to be contributing factors, while everybody's drills running out of batteries at the end of the event is presented as a valid theory... Not to mention the (positively minuscule) potential effects of a population where ~40% of the population were, according the BRC census, either first or second-timers and almost half the population came from California.

I was talking to some more seasoned and more jaded burner than myself at some point, or did I read a blog somewhere, fuck I cant remember, but the point was that it is the children who were ruining Burning Man, or more specifically it's the allowing of children that is ruining Burning Man. The story went like this: BRC used to be much more of a strictly grown-up party with more grown up things happening out in the open, like sex acts in public, more notably gay men engaging in public sex acts. This particular freedom bestowed from inhabiting a Temporary Autonomous Zone having the side-effect of keeping the easily offended straight squares away from the event. If you wanted to go party at Burning Man you had to be comfortable with the fact that you might have to exist in a public space with a gay orgy going on in visual or audio range. When the decision was made to start allowing children at burning man (according to the mythology it was around the same time they banned guns), they had to clean up the city to make it kid-friendly, Jiffy Lube has been out public view for 25 years and we're still scratching our heads as to why Burning Man is now a top destination on the world-wide travel rave circuit and the fat frat boys are finally starting to show up.

[some seeing eye]

I dunno, I wonder about the years-long policy of marketing the event in a bid to "spread the culture" coupled with their goal of 40% (or some other other silly number ICR) first timer attendance every year what it might have to do with so many people who don't fully understand the nature of the event being at the event. We wailed and gnashed our teeth while they paraded around rubbing elbows with the rich and famous, imposing parking fees and boasting about Burning Man changing the world but maybe what they were really doing was providing the conduit for the world to change Burning Man.

Commodification and de-cacophonization was the debate between John Law and Larry in the mid-90s, finally settled in 2008. Gate sales ended around that time and sold out in 2011.

BTW, "fuck yer burn" and bullhorns are not cacophony IMO. Too low effort. Cacophony is not low effort.

Larry, whose strength was visioning believed the event could grow to 100K and beyond. That was why the vehicle passes were instituted, to prove to LEO that vehicle traffic on 447 could be limited while the event grew. The vehicle traffic problem was burners crashing.

I don't know the history of regionals. I have never believed in the messianic vision and no idea when that began. Yes, it is an intense vacation, people are nice, the art and costumes are good, open source art can sit beside curated art, gifting, and no money are cool, in BRC for a week.

The BORG has made a devil's bargain with the press to get a certain type of coverage aligned with marketing goals for admission, but now the media is uncontrollable TikTok.

What is super irritating is that every festival and EDM party producer has adopted the burning-man volunteer labor model. The hippie prosperity model for me but not for you and mystical yoga talk message of burning man has definitely spread to my area.

What "sells" burning man are creative, young, physically attractive participants, and named DJs. But in the US, Gen z prime/Alpha existential values are climate, wealth distribution injustice, racial injustice, (and mass shootings.) Burning man is weak on those. Maybe they have to recruit virgins from overseas to sacrifice?

In Europe, there is a movement https://www.google.com/search?q=climate ... l+movement. Greta is not going to burning man.

The social media influencer genie is not going back into the bottle and increased mobile connectivity is inevitable with fiber coming to Gerlach as part of rural broadband modernization.

IMO the BORG has been reactive to trends only when they become liability-, legal-, BLM-, or LEO- problematic rather than sensing early and redirecting. I would guess that was Larry, who just wanted to see what unfolded, but it has persisted.

Because tickets are guaranteed to sell out, the organizers have a financial cushion, but rising costs against fixed population works against that. There are unsubstantiated media reports that Sergey camped in First Camp, or maybe they could have very expensive events at the ranch as they build that up. They did a good job despite a lot of grumbling getting through COVID economically, with a bite in the ass to participants at the end.

Virgins have been down the last 2 years as a percent, but a small percentage of moopers can create a big problem, and many festivals never got the moop religion. Haven't some DJs stoped playing for a de-mooping break?

It's all an interesting pickle.

[Elorrum]

What is super irritating is that every festival and EDM party producer has adopted the burning-man volunteer labor model. The hippie prosperity model for me but not for you and mystical yoga talk message of burning man has definitely spread to my area.

This. The volunteer model means all of it, rolled up beyond having a twenty hour work commitment while on vacation, for jobs that may need to be monetized in order to happen. Clean up after yourself is also a “volunteer” requirement that many newer participants are viewing as a service that should be provided, as well as all the art and music, electricity and running water, and even a quicker highway transit time. (For how the event is evolving, a distant desert is just the wrong environment.)

The development of Gerlach, and their expensive “work development program” workshops this winter are an approach to making better workers for the Fly City, out of paying participants. It will not shift to an employment model for the huge amount of labor required before it collapses is my feeling. I’ve been remembering the Dr. Seuss story “Yertle the turtle”: When all the turtles at the bottom of the tower decide they don’t want to do it for free, because it no longer is a fun cooperative thing, and the turtles who paid top dollar for the view just won’t contribute, it will collapse. Rod is right, stakes are just an easy item to grasp for this one exceptional year.

I know that a big group of folks camping and playing together can be a whole lot of fun. Many understand this. Maybe there are other options.

[Skuzzy61]

Well, I am simply going to say the smart phone has changed Burning Man forever. I should not have to explain why. Burning Man will never be what it was before the smart phone and that is a shame.

[Papa Bear]

Those factors didn't seem to be taken into account in the Blog post deriding us, the commoners, for losing our tent stakes.

No offense, but that seems like an oddly reactive reading of the interview with DA. I don't see anyone being derided there - he's just explaining what they are seeing that's different from previous years.

I'd guess that his first guess on the matter "maybe people forgot some" may be the biggest contributor - I know from experience that it is remarkably easy to lose track of a lag screw that's all the way in once whatever is attached to it has been unhooked, even when you're not breaking down in a whiteout.

If you're being careful and taking things down one at a time, so you only have a handful, it's easier to realize you've missed one and have an idea where the missing one will be. If you have a big camp with lots of things coming down at once, with a lot of dust blowing around, it doesn't take much for that dust to hide them from view.

I was talking to some more seasoned and more jaded burner than myself at some point, or did I read a blog somewhere, fuck I cant remember, but the point was that it is the children who were ruining Burning Man, or more specifically it's the allowing of children that is ruining Burning Man.

That sounds remarkably like an argument someone (IIRC, an individual who has a long track record of making shit up and presenting it as fact) was pushing not too long ago on Reddit, blaming the presence of kids for people being less willing to be naked or weird. But I'm pretty sure that argument, as well as the one someone made to you, are both wrong.

Granted, I wasn't around for the first burns, not having made it to BRC until 2003. But what I've always heard is that kids have been part of every single burn, from the first one on. There wasn't a decision made later to let them in, they were already there. And I can absolutely say for sure that kids were there in 2003, when public nudity was far more common.

I think the much bigger influence has simply been smart phones, cell service, and social media. Back when I first started coming, we all knew that someone could take a picture, develop and scan it when they got home, and post it on their personal website. But it wasn't common, and didn't seem like much of a risk. Now if you go out there and get naked or provocative, video of you could wind up on Facebook, Instagram, Youtube, and a hundred other places before you even get off playa, and quite possibly tagged with your real name so that it'll show up in a search. That has had a serious chilling effect.

[Papa Bear]

IMO the BORG has been reactive to trends only when they become liability-, legal-, BLM-, or LEO- problematic rather than sensing early and redirecting. I would guess that was Larry, who just wanted to see what unfolded, but it has persisted.

Assuming that's true, I have a guess as to why it happens.

I've been told often that the org tries hard to make internal decisions by consensus. If there isn't widespread agreement on a course of action, nothing happens until there is. There are pros and cons to that kind of consensus-based decision making, but one of the major cons is that it can take quite a while just for everyone to agree that a problem exists, and then even longer to agree on a way to address it.

I'd also bet that the fastest way to speed up that process is for something to start posing a threat to the event itself, in terms of legal liability or the ability to get a permit.

[Elorrum]

I'd also bet that the fastest way to speed up that process is for something to start posing a threat to the event itself, in terms of legal liability or the ability to get a permit.

It won't be lagging ticket sales.

The idea of children being a contributing factor is not far off the mark. There is a class of dependents now that need to be housed, and fed, and transported, the same as children. They need everything provided for them as they are likely stepping on playa with no, or little, more than what they had stepping off an airplane. They will not worry about how materials are dealt with upon delivery or exodus, the same as children. They pay whatever it costs to have it the way they want it. The expectations of this group has changed the event. They were invited, and are welcomed. They feel little connection to the strangers around them as long as they have their woobie cell phone teddy, that connects them to all the people they already know and trust. They treat their accommodations much like a rental and a restaurant, or a parking space with a nice location. I doubt many would see tent stakes, or carpet, or cardboard, as something they are responsible for after paying dues for accommodation, much like I don't offer to wash dishes and take trash out at a restaurant. The responsible members of a camp, those who have perhaps commodified the experience for others they barely know, in order to guarantee they will be able to continually attend, would be undermanned, I'm sure, to be the ones to pick up the mess.

[Papa Bear]

There is a class of dependents now that need to be housed, and fed, and transported, the same as children.

I’ll agree, with two caveats. One is that they want all those services, they don’t actually need them, and the event need not cater to that desire.

The other is that I’ve seen plenty of kids out there that pitch in, pick up moop, and are generally wonderful participants, so comparing the “cater to me” crowd to children really isn’t fair to the latter.

But from what I’m told by those who’ve been around longer than I, those PnP spectators have been around since the very early 2000s, if not longer. They were largely ignored until tickets started selling out.

And this is where that management by consensus thing comes in. It took the mess in 2014 to really call attention to the problem, and it took the CDS initiative a few years later to seek out community consensus on the matter.

Even then, it wasn’t a slam dunk. There were well-known people who contribute art and effort to the city who thought it should be just fine for someone who personally funded a large chunk of an art installation or mutant vehicle to have a camp cater to them in return. They called it patronage.

But in the end, the community said that wasn’t ok. And so rules were created against it and many loopholes that enabled it were closed. But most of that only started happening in 2018-2019, and then we had nearly three years off between burns.

You can absolutely argue that the issue was neglected too long. I’m in full agreement with that. This would all have been much easier to correct if the consensus was reached much earlier, say around the time Larry made up the principles in ‘04. But it didn’t, so we have to deal with things as they are.

I don’t know if it is possible to turn the tide, but I know the org is actively trying (and keep in mind that the org isn’t a single entity, it’s a large group, many of whom are volunteers, including me). They announced before the 2022 event that several camps got shut down for offering “concierge camping”. Per a comment the head of the DMV posted on Reddit a few months ago, the actual number appears to be closer to a dozen. I know there were other camps that faced consequences on playa when they were discovered (and so, I presume, are no longer “in good standing”).

Did they get every offender? No. The org isn’t omniscient, and camps don’t just come out and say that they’re a PnP on their placement apps. They have to be caught at it, and most of the time that begins with a tip from some random burner who sees something or knows something and alerts them to go check it out.

But even if it isn’t perfect, it’s progress. There were definitely people that came into the city expecting the catered experience, only to discover that the cozy PnPs they had paid to take care of them never even made it past the gates. I can’t imagine that was a pleasant welcome to the city, or that it didn’t have repercussions outside the event.

If that scares some of them off next year, or makes it even more expensive for anyone else wanting to try it, then I think that’s a win.

[Meaningless]

I totally agree. Time has changed....

[Elorrum]

Did they get every offender? No. The org isn’t omniscient, and camps don’t just come out and say that they’re a PnP on their placement apps. They have to be caught at it, and most of the time that begins with a tip from some random burner who sees something or knows something and alerts them to go check it out.

If that scares some of them off next year, or makes it even more expensive for anyone else wanting to try it, then I think that’s a win.

How secretive, really? I just can’t ignore all the expectation some here on this board, and on burning man fb pages, where new burners just ask where these camps are, if somebody can drive them from the airport, who has a.c. accommodations to share for a fee, who will provide water power and groceries. I saw please join our camp notices as well, listing what was provided to the camp members, or asking for skill sets required for accommodation infrastructure, electricians and people who could tow things. These aren’t large art patrons, or corporate big wigs, some are international tourists who will pay whatever it costs for what they have learned is the experience of a lifetime, some are US tourists. They want things towed and purchased, charged, or removed from playa after single use. If the Org was managing this, and ferreting out the one or two pay for accommodation camps managing to sneak under the radar, after following up on unpredictable tips, how could so many people be expecting these accommodations as a matter of course?

I think a few valuable census questions would be how much did your camp provide at what cost? How much did you pay for your ticket? What sale did you get it from? Did you consider camping on your own at all? Why did you want to join a camp?

I don’t pretend it is a changeable course.

[ygmir]

this is a good thread, good discussion and info.
It points out some of the reasoning for my ever increasing misanthropic Nihilism.
Years ago, I thought I'd found a "group" (loosely defined) self reliant scoundrels, of varying backgrounds and attitudes, opinions and perversions. But mostly, accepting of eachother on the TTITD playing field, and even in defaultia for the most part.
As with human nature, the elites and "no loads" (all somehow feeling entitled) started showing up. The jackals, if you will, that come in after the hard work is done, to share in the largess of said work, with no real input or effort on their part.
And then, as society in general has become so polarized, so, it seems, has burner society. Defaultia crept in and began to fester.
We can point to a myriad of specific events and people, even circumstances, and try to lay blame. But really, IMHO, it's a function of human nature.
The calls for "more rules" and "turn in your neighbor", are just a symptom. Ironic as they are, coming from an event that prided itself on "no rules", that depended on integrity, for a pleasant experience, for all.
We can point fingers all we want, but really, all we need is a mirror (as relates to humanity).

[FIGJAM]

100% agree.

[Elorrum]

The calls for "more rules" and "turn in your neighbor", are just a symptom. Ironic as they are, coming from an event that prided itself on "no rules", that depended on integrity, for a pleasant experience, for all.

Yes. James Madison is quoted: “If Men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and the next place, oblige it to control itself.”

In theory, we chose an alternative tribe that was based on integrity, and a desire to build rather than buy. The mutual respect we had for each other was based on qualities money does not buy. It only takes a few colonial types, or parasites, or people just better situated in the coin of the realm with a will to leverage it, to co-opt a good thing from a group less capable to compete on terms set by the interlopers, or even to remain as participants. Your word “jackals” most succinct. The principles were a bulwark against it, but only for a while. Now they are dismissed as hippie tripe, simple suggestions, not even guidelines.

It is a small step for a few to wrench out of balance a thing that can only be achieved through communal integrity. Once the integrity is gone, to keep the thing as it was, it can only be maintained through a behemoth of regulation, fees and employed labor. I’m amazed at the few who state the only thing that will govern the nature of the event (as to safe behavior even) is a losing finding in a lawsuit. If nobody can make a case, then so be it. As in nature, an unregulated parasite can kill the host.

Yes, it was a very fun big camping trip.

[ygmir]

The calls for "more rules" and "turn in your neighbor", are just a symptom. Ironic as they are, coming from an event that prided itself on "no rules", that depended on integrity, for a pleasant experience, for all.

Yes. James Madison is quoted: “If Men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and the next place, oblige it to control itself.”

In theory, we chose an alternative tribe that was based on integrity, and a desire to build rather than buy. The mutual respect we had for each other was based on qualities money does not buy. It only takes a few colonial types, or parasites, or people just better situated in the coin of the realm with a will to leverage it, to co-opt a good thing from a group less capable to compete on terms set by the interlopers, or even to remain as participants. Your word “jackals” most succinct. The principles were a bulwark against it, but only for a while. Now they are dismissed as hippie tripe, simple suggestions, not even guidelines.

It is a small step for a few to wrench out of balance a thing that can only be achieved through communal integrity. Once the integrity is gone, to keep the thing as it was, it can only be maintained through a behemoth of regulation, fees and employed labor. I’m amazed at the few who state the only thing that will govern the nature of the event (as to safe behavior even) is a losing finding in a lawsuit. If nobody can make a case, then so be it. As in nature, an unregulated parasite can kill the host.

Yes, it was a very fun big camping trip.

sigh, indeed

[Papa Bear]

I just can’t ignore all the expectation some here on this board, and on burning man fb pages, where new burners just ask where these camps are, if somebody can drive them from the airport, who has a.c. accommodations to share for a fee, who will provide water power and groceries.

Yes, I see those too. But what I generally see in response is other burners criticizing the newbie looking for the PnP experience, and I'm not sure I've ever seen a camp come back and say "sure, camp with us, pay us enough money and you don't have to do anything".

I saw please join our camp notices as well, listing what was provided to the camp members, or asking for skill sets required for accommodation infrastructure, electricians and people who could tow things.

First off, just so I'm clear, there's nothing wrong with a group of friends that decides to work together to do common meals, build themselves a shower structure, and maybe even share generator access. Nor is there anything wrong with them agreeing to split the costs of that equally. That's a completely normal camping trip. And if they want to allow a few newbies to camp with them, I don't have an issue with that, either.

That said, I have long warned people that if a camp is leading with "here's the amenities you get if you join our camp", it's a red flag. But I also make a habit of going and checking out the website/facebook group/etc of any camp that does that. Almost universally, that site also tells people that they can't just pay money and go party, they're going to be expected to work.

Now, that work requirement may or may not be real, but absent some other kind of hard evidence to the contrary, it's not like someone from the org can go read that and say "oh, this is a PnP, let's shut them down". They have to actually catch them. And sometimes, some burner goes through the "application process" far enough to get an email pitching them on "and if you pay $X more, you don't have to do anything", or a burner finds the camp advertising that kind of deal on some other festival networking site. Sometimes someone who was hired by a camp and then mistreated turns them in. Then the org has evidence, and can drop the hammer.

I'm not sure why a camp looking for people with specific skills to help with their infrastructure is a problem, though, as long as said people aren't being paid? If a camp wants to do something that requires electrician skills, civil engineering skills, or needs to be towed in, that's not a problem. They can dream as big as they want to, and build as big as they are capable of. (But perhaps I'm missing something - what are "accomodation infrastructure" skills - the ability to put up a tent?)

That said, the expectation and requirement is that those skills are given as a gift to the community, they aren't offered in return for pay. In past years there was no explicit rule against that, just a fairly loose cultural bias against it - but that bias was never universal. Now there is one that can be enforced.

These aren’t large art patrons, or corporate big wigs, some are international tourists who will pay whatever it costs for what they have learned is the experience of a lifetime, some are US tourists.

I fully agree - the big PnPs are the most visible and easy to point fingers at, but in terms of sheer numbers the big problem comes from camps who don't think of themselves as PnPs. Instead, they're made up of a core group of people who want to build something cool but don't have the budget for it, so they settle on making the camp larger so that there are more people to cover the cost. Those extra people aren't really doing much beyond helping with meals or picking up moop, which they'd be doing if they camped on their own anyway.

That's actually my preferred metric for "participation" when you're involved with a theme camp. If you aren't spending more time and effort on camp operations/interactivity than you would be spending to maintain yourself if you camped on your own, you're not really adding anything to the city.

If the Org was managing this, and ferreting out the one or two pay for accommodation camps managing to sneak under the radar, after following up on unpredictable tips, how could so many people be expecting these accommodations as a matter of course?

Well, lots of newbies are going to make that assumption because so many other "festivals" work that way.

But also, up until 2018/2019/2022, lots of stuff was allowed simply by virtue of not having explicit rules made to prevent it. As much as many of us here frown on certain things, there wasn't really a clear consensus against it. So some groups did it for profit, and some did it in order to further what they (wrongly, IMO) thought of as a greater good of bringing something bigger or better to playa.

That went on for years, so it's no surprise that people who've heard about the event from people who went in the past (or who went themselves in the past but don't really read the JRS or placement newsletters) would think that's how it still works. And there are still camp organizers who think "oh, that's just about rich PnPs, it doesn't apply to our group" and need to learn otherwise.

Likewise, you don't just invent new departments and get to have them instantly fully staffed by volunteers who know exactly what to do. Nor can you instantly expand a department, especially one like placement. It takes time to build that infrastructure in terms of people, policy, and training. That's one of the downsides to a city built and mostly run by the participants (and most "org departments", including Placement, are almost entirely composed of volunteers) - it takes multiple years to make meaningful changes happen.

What pissed me off, though, is that some of the same people who rail against the "decline" of the city in terms of many of these issues also speak derisively of the idea that participants should "turn in" their neighbors when they see evidence of paid staff or "concierge camping". They claim they want the problem solved, but they want someone else to solve it, and apparently aren't willing to do anything to help make it happen. It's magical thinking, and I don't have much patience for that.

[Papa Bear]

Also, for the record, I too miss the days when we all felt like personal integrity and at least some shared values of tolerance and respect for individual contribution was enough. But much as I wish it were, I'm not sure that was ever truly universal - it was just that there were enough people who did value those things to outweigh the people who didn't.

I think there's also a long history of things being built by a smallish, dedicated group with shared ideals that eventually become interesting and popular enough that there is an inrush of people who just don't understand what built the thing they so value. I've seen it in interest groups, volunteer groups, and even successful startup companies.

So as much as I recognize in hindsight that the org has made missteps that contributed, I doubt they could have ever fully avoided a situation where we have to deal with the kinds of things we are dealing with now. It seems to just be human nature.

[Elorrum]

I feel many will defend it until they are forced from attending for cost or being unable to get a ticket. I worked on projects, and camped on my own. The days of the solo burner in open camping are over.

I sent about a dozen emails to “doing it wrong”, for commodification of dgs tickets mainly. One for a camp offering a ticket to store their vehicle until 2023. One offering a ticket in exchange for a golf cart. I am not proud of it, I feel like an obsessed and pouty brat to be honest. Just in a cursory glance at eplaya’s camp thread last year, here’s a few of what I’d consider red flags. But it feels like splitting hairs ad Infinitum until an actual criminal or civil crime can be proven, so ok, human nature. Nobody got paid for work on playa, but scarce tickets were offered or exchanged for services and materials. Placed Camp status was maintained and built from selling access as dues. When human nature prevents you from attending, you might feel differently about it.
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“We're have two open, air-conditioned Shiftpod's (look it up) to accommodate you—complete with air mattresses. We have room for two couples (4 people) –or– up to 6 individuals. We also have space for one more RV. Maybe two.

Our camp is called Ahimsa and is part of The Avant Yard village located at 6 & K or so. (July 2022)
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‪Backfire is seeking fresh new faces and perspectives!‬ (Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:05 pm) We also have a few tickets that can go to the right people. The cost of tickets will be face value, taxes, fees and the camp dues will all be payable at the same time. ($905)
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now, I’m looking to recruit 2 people who have extra shade structures they can bring with them for the Chapel. I’m also looking for a DJ who can bring his or her own sound system (it doesn’t have to be huge, by any means). As of now, I cannot offer tickets, but can likely offer a ride, placement and work access passes.
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Seen on Reddit: “But I know what I would do if I was not already getting a lush personal DGS allocation every year. I would go out and develop some scarce skill that was ultra in demand in our community. For example I know of multiple camps that would gladly hand a free ticket and wave all camp dues to someone that had a CDL and was willing to drive a semi in early and out late.”

[Elorrum]

Criteria for “camps in good standing”. addresses selling “concierge packages”
https://burningman.org/event/participat ... odstanding