Requirements for propane tank water baths?

[CuIICl2]

Back in the days when I was exhibiting fire art at the big burn (2012-2015), FAST would require a temperature controller and a way to dump the water, but beyond that, other measures were extra.

Nowadays I teach NFPA-160 based flame effect classes on occasion for our local event, and there was a request to cover current water bath requirements for those that were intending to proceed on to the main event.

Last I heard from my campmates that have been exhibiting more recently, I heard these requirements, but I wanted to see if that's still current. I haven't been able to zero in on the current requirements and I've gone through all the posted fire\project\fuel agreements.

primary - electronic temperature controller
secondary - pressure switch (any variety) for disabling heating system
emergency - water dump with quarter turn cutoff

Are those requirements still correct?

[Molotov]

I think an emergency water dump in an overheating condition would only exacerbate the problem by allowing the temperature to climb unabated. I trust you won't be disabling any of the factory installed overpressure relief valves/rupture discs, which would be the ultimate safety factor, as long as you are not heating the LPG tank above the liquid line, causing a possible tank shell failure and rupture.

I think your head is in the right place as far as the safeguards you propose, except for the water dump.

Burn on!

[ygmir]

I think an emergency water dump in an overheating condition would only exacerbate the problem by allowing the temperature to climb unabated. I trust you won't be disabling any of the factory installed overpressure relief valves/rupture discs, which would be the ultimate safety factor, as long as you are not heating the LPG tank above the liquid line, causing a possible tank shell failure and rupture.

I think your head is in the right place as far as the safeguards you propose, except for the water dump.

Burn on!

I believe the water system is to warm the tanks, as they tend to freeze up when used at high volume, due to boiling off the liquid in the tank. I'd imagine the water dump would be if the heating system malfunctioned and the water got too hot, and therefore increased pressures too high. Dumping the water would take the heat transmission source away from contact with the tanks?
To be fair, I'm totally guessing, based on a rudimentary understanding of flame effects and physics... just fun to speculate.

[CuIICl2]

I believe the water system is to warm the tanks, as they tend to freeze up when used at high volume, due to boiling off the liquid in the tank. I'd imagine the water dump would be if the heating system malfunctioned and the water got too hot, and therefore increased pressures too high. Dumping the water would take the heat transmission source away from contact with the tanks?
To be fair, I'm totally guessing, based on a rudimentary understanding of flame effects and physics... just fun to speculate.

Correct. For our projects that have a higher (100-125psi) maximum operating pressure, we would normally have the depot held at ~100F via a separate lpg water heater setup.

While I'm waiting for some official response, if anyone has a direct line to the current FAST gurus, please PM me. All of my old records for contacts at the big burn are out of date.

[Elorrum]

While I'm waiting for some official response, if anyone has a direct line to the current FAST gurus, please PM me. All of my old records for contacts at the big burn are out of date.

Since you are diving deep at this point, you also know that no official response comes from eplaya. There are some pretty knowledgeable people here to chime in. I am not one of those. Just in case anybody else is curious about flame effects regulations or how to get started, there is a 2023 fire art page on the main burning man site, with some general email addresses to contact with questions after reading the guideline pages. Perhaps one might be a trailhead to the FAST guru you seek.

Art installations in general: [email protected]
Open Fire: [email protected]
Flame Effects: [email protected]
Mutant Vehicle Flame Effects: [email protected]
Pyrotechnics: [email protected]

https://burningman.org/event/participat ... -fire-art/

https://burningman.org/event/participat ... e-effects/

[CuIICl2]

Thanks! That should get me to the needed info after a few hoops.

[Molotov]

Disregard my previous post re: water dump. It was based on my ASS-umptions, which appear to be incorrect.

Carry on!

[The Rod]

I brought a flame system with heated water baths in 2016. FAST didn't give the baths a second glance during our inspection, nor do I ever recall seeing or hearing anything about a dump method - which my baths did not have. Mine were heated and I manually regulated the temp - would def NOT do it manually again, constantly checking gauges and adjusting was a PITA.

[Mattguyver]

I am a current FAST member from 2014-present and I'd be happy to help with this question. While on playa we are looking for the following for a hot water bath:

-Minimum of a temp control of water with appropriate shut offs (generally 100degFwater temp is more than enough for water baths)
-Pressure cut off switch is not mandatory but is also very handy. Technically NFPA prefers this method but we also understand that it is technically more difficult to achieve which is why we are ok with temp regulation.
-A dump valve isnt a hard requirement either but also good practice to do. In the event of a temp control failure we can dump the water and remove the heat source from the tanks. Also, this should be sized appropriately for the vessel and to rapidly dump the water from it (think 2"). You dont want a 1" valve on a 275gal IBC tote.

CuIICl2 you are on the right track, keep it up!

[Mattguyver]

I am a current FAST member from 2014-present and I'd be happy to help with this question. While on playa we are looking for the following for a hot water bath:

-Minimum of a temp control of the water with appropriate shut offs (generally 100degFwater temp is more than enough for water baths). (dipping your hand to "manually" control the water temp is not acceptable under any circumstance)
-Pressure cut off switch is not mandatory but is also very handy. Technically NFPA prefers this method but we also understand that it is technically more difficult to achieve which is why we are ok with temp regulation.
-A dump valve isnt a hard requirement either but also good practice to do. In the event of a temp control failure we can dump the water and remove the heat source from the tanks. Also, this should be sized appropriately for the vessel and to rapidly dump the water from it (think 2"). You dont want a 1" valve on a 275gal IBC tote.
-method to secure the tanks in the bath when they start to float.

CuIICl2 you are on the right track, keep it up!