Borg2 - East Coast Opinions

GlowScreen · Post by **GlowScreen** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:18 am

Greetings,

Last night I wanted to have a NYC Burner meeting to discuss the Borg2 situation.

The Asylum Happy Hour crowd didn’t want to have a formal meeting last night, (like trying to herd cats), so I talked to as many individuals as I could about the Borg2 situation. Of course opinions varied but I would like to relay some of the discussion to the community at large.

There was agreement that the art on the playa in 2004 was weak and that perhaps “new blood” is needed. If Borg2 brings a few art pieces to the playa in 2005 that would not otherwise be there, then it is a good thing.

However, many NY burners feel that Borg2 is not an option for non West Coast artists. Because of transportation and logistical costs the amount of grant money needed for an artist living far from Black Rock City is much greater than the amount of money needed for a West Coast artist. There was doubt that Borg2 voting community would choose a project from the East Coast because a larger grant would have to go to an artist from further away to cover transportation costs. It was also mentioned that the Borg2 Curators and Art Council seem to have left out all of Canada and the rest of the International Burner community.

Many people said that this seems to just be an elaborate way to fund projects by Chicken John and Jim Mason. A lot of people will give time, energy, and money to this experiment in artistic democracy, but mostly SF people will register to vote and they will elect their own local art heroes. The artist from Montana is shit out of luck.

There were a few interesting ideas to level the playing field a bit:

What if Borg2 financed a container shipment from New York to BRC? One container just for East Coast artists to get their stuff to the desert.
What if the projects were put up for a vote anonymously? That way it would be less of a popularity contest.
What if everyone who has been funded by Borg1 in the past is ineligible for Borg2 money, thereby insuring new artists get a fair chance.

In my discussions last night I found that there was a lot of mistrust of the Borg2. There is an adversarial attitude towards Borg1 which turns off a lot of people. The discussions on Tribe and e-playa have been disrespectful at times. We here in NY have little personal connection with any of the candidates and so it is difficult to trust them. Some people felt that Borg2 should just go and plan a totally separate event from Burning Man.

One artist signed the original “We Have a Dream” petition, but is considering removing his name because he doesn’t agree with the methods that are being used.

There was no one who said that they would be willing to give money to Borg2, and most people doubt that they will reach the goal of $250,000. And then, the smaller amount of money that is raised will go to artists from San Francisco.

Please remember that what I have said here is a distillation of conversations with many people and not necessarily my own opinions (so don’t attack me if you disagree). I’m trying to facilitate discussion and keep us up to speed on this issue.

I’m cross posting this to a few different lists. I know that’s bad etiquette but it seems like the best way to communicate at this point.

Much Love,

amy

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:44 am

I've spent some time wondering if the whole borg2 thing isn't a product of living in the shadow of the original event by sharing the hometown. I mean, if you new yorkers put on a regional burn (and I believe you do, but typical of the eye of hte storm, I'm not sure) that's great. San Francisco Regional Burn sounds silly and a little off. So the locals spend their energy on tilting at that particular windmill.
Just a thought.

GlowScreen · Post by **GlowScreen** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:58 am

Ineresting theory.

Playa del Fuego is the East Coast Regional burn which is held twice a year in Delaware. I went this fall and it was great.

amy

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:57 pm

People contributing to BORG2 discussions didn't just all of a sudden wake up cranky. It took a few years. Let us know when you reach that point back east.

My motivation has been to get people to open up on how things are currently done, and how they might be different. Burning Man has always funded art, but the current art department seems to live in a dream world in which a quarter to a half million dollars of your ticket money can freely be squandered on questionable art and questionable ASS (Art Support Services) without people questioning it. In an ideal world, I'd say fuck you to anybody and everybody asking for money or transport, but we already have money, volunteer groups, etc. committed, and may as well talk about how it can better be spent.

And I'm sure BORG2 is pleased that their movement has apparently spurred you all to be more vocal about whatever.

buckethead alien · Post by **buckethead alien** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:45 am

The Odeon bar "debate" for Art Council and(?) Guest Curators can be listened to here:

http://66.245.248.139/~fuXboy/borg2audio.html
Some great moments amid plenty of blather.

Also, from the Borg2 on Tribe,
Thunderdome's proposal for Guest Curator is worth a look.

GlowScreen · Post by **GlowScreen** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:34 am

Hi,

Last night I had a lively phone conversation with Chicken John. He feels that the opinions of NYC burners expressed in my post yesterday demonstrate a misunderstanding of Borg2.

It is difficult to have a clear understanding of this project because of the large amount of information to sort through on the Borg2 site, and also on Tribe, and eplaya. This is not anyone’s fault. It’s the nature of the beast. Few people are going to have the time and patience to sift through all of it. So, we in NYC made some snap judgments and that has caused Mr. Chicken John some frustration. I did apologize to him for that.

He did react positively to the idea of Borg2 paying for a shipping container from NYC to the playa. He will not be on the council that makes such decisions, but they will listen to what he has to say.

He wants us to understand that Borg2 is only for those disenfranchised from Borg1. He said, “If you are not pissed off, then this is not for you. Borg2 is only for a small angry mob.”

However, they are calling out for the entire community to register to vote, run in the elections, propose are projects, and donate money. They hang this $250,000 carrot in front of us, intrigue us with the revolutionary idea of a democratic curatorial process, and then get pissy when we point problems with the idea.

After my quite charming conversation with Chicken I felt that what I had unknowingly involved myself in a gigantic family squabble. The burners in San Francisco deal with Borg1 on a regular basis and so they can foster years of resentment and personal conflicts. Our distance provides a buffer zone which may prevent us from being pissed off enough to join their revolution.

I’m going to let this issue rest for awhile now. I’ll vote and see what the future brings.

amy

GuinivereElise · Post by **GuinivereElise** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:43 am

GlowScreen wrote:Hi,

He wants us to understand that Borg2 is only for those disenfranchised from Borg1. He said, “If you are not pissed off, then this is not for you. Borg2 is only for a small angry mob.”

However, they are calling out for the entire community to register to vote, run in the elections, propose are projects, and donate money.

hmmm, wait.

I'm just trying to understand what you're (chicken john) saying: Borg2 is only for the angry few, but they want everyone to donate money and vote, etc?

Can someone explain this in better terms for me? right now, that just doesn't make any sense. Maybe I need more coffee...

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:53 am

GlowScreen wrote:
He did react positively to the idea of Borg2 paying for a shipping container from NYC to the playa.

So did I, but neglected to say so.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:07 am

GuinivereElise wrote:
GlowScreen wrote:Hi,

He wants us to understand that Borg2 is only for those disenfranchised from Borg1. He said, “If you are not pissed off, then this is not for you. Borg2 is only for a small angry mob.”

However, they are calling out for the entire community to register to vote, run in the elections, propose are projects, and donate money.
hmmm, wait.

I'm just trying to understand what you're (chicken john) saying: Borg2 is only for the angry few, but they want everyone to donate money and vote, etc?

Can someone explain this in better terms for me? right now, that just doesn't make any sense. Maybe I need more coffee...

exactly what I thought.

it seems to be more of the inflammatory bullshit we've seen so far.

too bad it obscures andy good that could sprout from all of this.
hopefully it will get better...

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:01 am

fuck, I had the same thought

Borg2 is only for a small angry mob

but

they are calling out for the entire community to... donate money

GuinivereElise · Post by **GuinivereElise** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:13 am

okay, well, I feel better, knowing that it's not just me...

sparkletarte · Post by **sparkletarte** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:37 am

Sounds awfully US-centric to me. What about us in the rest of the world? Huh? Huh?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:41 am

sparkletarte wrote:Sounds awfully US-centric to me. What about us in the rest of the world? Huh? Huh?

Look, sparks, our state department is so intent on being a superpower, it can't even get our citizens out of thailand after a disaster.

And you expect the LLC or the BORG2 to be any more cosmopolitan?

You are hopelessly niave about the narcissism of the american psyche. (OOOOOOOOooooooh OOOOOOOoooooooooh thematic!)

There's a moosehead in the bar for you.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:50 am

I think you are closer to BORG2 than folks in NY velvet. Your application of such phoney constructs as 'nationality' and 'borders' really demonstrates that you are not burny enough to be a part of their club. I am so embarrassed for you.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:00 pm

There is an international position available on the council. Run for it! While I am not going to try to give THE definition of BORG2, it might be useful for me to lay out what it is to me. And please keep in mind that I am only speaking for myself here and not for any of the others in the organization.

Basically it is about not bitching at BMorg about stuff they think is messed up and people getting up and just doing something different. Much of this stems from a process within BMorg that people see as opaque and arbitrary. People want to see art on the playa. There is a perception that the art has been getting weaker ... lamer ... generally not as good as in past years. Many of the artists that have produced art in past years did not like working with BMorg because of what they felt were often mysterious and arbitrary decision made with no input or view into the reaching of them.

Some people have gotten together and decided that they are going to try to get out on the playa using a different process. It is a demonstration to see if this new process can work. The first piece is in opening up the art decisions to the community. Rather than having an "inner circle" of core cadre that make the art decisions, individual participants from the community can nominate themselves or others to be on the council that decides what art will be coming as part of BORG2 and how much the grant will be. The process is designed to be democratic. It is hoped that people with experiance with art on the playa will take part. The folks at Thunderdome have stepped up, for example, and are really running with the ball so far as have several others. (Nat the Bat, for example, fuck you very much) <--NOTE that fuck you thing is part of the other part of BORG2 that is going over some people's heads and to even have to explain it means ... well ... it is like claiming to know The Tao.

Now about all the chaos and confrontation ... that is part of the art. Think of it as performance art. These are people that in their hearts have a geniune desire to make a difference in the way things are done and are ready to put their backs into it. They also want to have some fun doing it and are having a little media pie fight with BMorg. Note that the articles so far have been MUCH more confrontational than anyone really wants but that is because the writer in the SF Chronicle doesn't really get it. She has picked up some of Chicken's sarcastic remarks and run with them. Many of the folks at "Operation Desert Snuggle" have come around to see this for what it really is ... FUN damnit. We will resist Snuggle and all that Snuggle stands for to the last drop of water in our Super Soakers.

It is about involvement, it is about participation, it is about love for the event and love for art. It is about getting OFF your snuggly butts, stop bitching, come up with ideas that can make things better, and DO IT OURSELVES without sitting around yelling at other people telling them what we think they should do. It is about trying it ourselves and seeing if it actually can work.

Please, have a look at the website and the tribe. Lobby for your favorite candidates, run for office, give some money to the art fund (because BORG2 has no funds of their own from borg1). YOU ARE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN DECIDING WHAT ART IS ON THE PLAYA. We have decided that you are allowed to. Just by fucking DOING it.

sparkletarte · Post by **sparkletarte** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:00 pm

Oh for heaven's sake, since when did you decide to take what I say so seriously?! I'm joking, duh! Huh, huh, duh, duh. I'm hardly offended by what the #2 is doing. I couldn't care less if they want to make it whatever they want to make it- more power to them for doing what they want to do.

Geez.

Wait. On second thought, re-reading stuart's post, I detect some scarcasm in there, but I can't quite see it clearly.

Nevermind.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:07 pm

Oh, it wasn't YOU so much as a general tone I perceived from reading stuff in lots of other places besides just here. Sounds to me like some people have some honest questions about what the thing is and I just chimed in with my own $0.02.

Sorry to have gotten all serious all of a sudden. It must be confusing.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:31 pm

I dunno, Geek.

I enjoy the guerilla tactics, I applaud the part of the BORG2 which is about do-ocracy.

I don't appreciate the way they treat other people. And this is from someone who enjoys surliness to the point of camping with a whole lot of loud, surly tricksters.

This alone certainly doesn't invalidate their endeavor, though I see certain points as unworkable. It just encourages me to continue to work with regional events and camps rather than throw my energy to another massive SNAFU. Working locally is much more my style, I guess.

I just don't feel a need to have faith - or not have faith - in the BORG2. Maybe they'll fail, maybe they won't; either way i shall enjoy watching the results... and continue to not spectate in my own way.

I should say though, if they're going to critique the BuMP, I see no reason why we shouldn't critique them. After all, they're trying to be 'democratic,' aren't they?

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:42 pm

perfect RJ

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:51 pm

Ya know it's not that they critique the BuMP but hte hyperbole with which they do it.

I have my quarrels with the llc. After experimenting, I don't air them here. and we're back to the old fishy thing of refusing to let someone else explain her experience to her. Why don't you just live my life while yer at it.

secretly I think they should start their own event. I couldn't be the llc, that's one reason I'm quiet about it. It's the old "If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own" story.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:52 pm

They can't be a democracy until the council has formed. Right now it is just the original founders and so you have to live with their quirks until the elections on the 15th. Then they step aside and the council runs things. THAT is when the real BORG2 makes its appearance.

Can you give me a specific example of the treatment of other people that bothers you?

I went to the meeting the other night. I didn't feel mistreated. In fact, I was treated to bowling. Bowling is a very important thing. Without it, we wouldn't have bowlers and thousands of people would be walking the streets jobless. Support all the people that make bowling possible, support BORG2. Oh, and we had beer too. Too much beer, but beer nonetheless. Beer and Bowling are important ... VERY important. They are cornerstones of what makes this country great. In fact, beer, bowling and playa art should be what we invade the next country with. Maybe we can invade Canada. I think The Bus will make it that far. Maybe a stop in Portland and Seattle on our way to pick up more beer drinking bowlers. Oh, wait, this was about art.

BORG2 can't treat anyone well or badly because BORG2 really doesn't exist yet. It is in the process of being formed. I support Nat The Bat for council, I support Thunderdome for curator. I support also the woman from New York whose name I have now forgotten. Hell, I support support and all the beer and bowling that go along with it. And I vow to defend BORG2 against all snuggling, both foreign and domestic. Fuck you very much.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:03 pm

Oh, and one of the things raised at the meeting was getting more stuff like theatre and live musical art out there too. That would be very very cool.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:21 pm

Arson Islanders brought theatre, spoken word, live acoustic music to the playa. We didn't need the help of any BORG2. Why should we?

And this seems a little wonky to me. The founders declare that they are the artists, then that they are BORG2. A lot of these people will probably be on this council or whatever. I'm assuming that the council has some power, therefore there's a reason for it? But those people who may well end up on the council are somehow NOT BORG2, nor do these semi-powerful founder people have any impact on the way it is shaped.... huh?

Maybe it just boils down to false democracy. It doesn't really sound like people will have that much say. Just different folks than now. The concerns of tons of people across the country aren't really being answered, there are no plans for how to do this supposedly democratic system, and now we're appointing a power elite. It may not be any better or worse than what we have now, but it seems a little delusional to think it will be some great experience of the masses. It hasn't really promised that yet. Just a new clique.

I may be way off here. Considering that the founders came in from the beginning saying they represented my way of thinking even when they clearly didn't, and wouldn't listen to any dissenting voice, i haven't bothered to keep up on the deatils of how they plan to run their operation. I don't see enough integrity in these initiators to want to waste my time.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:22 pm

http://battleborgs.tribe.net/

Here you may see comments from and debate among the various candidates.

Membership is limited to candidates only for posting but you may view and post comments in the main tribe where your drivel will get mingled with the drivel of others and might spark another eruption someplace, or not. Have at it.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:26 pm

I wrote:i haven't bothered to keep up on the deatils of how they plan to run their operation. I don't see enough integrity in these initiators to want to waste my time.

thanks geek. not now.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:38 pm

Fair enough, Rian. Everything isn't for everyone. It was important to me that I try to show them how I see them and I have done that now and have pointed out a couple of places where they can look and make up their own minds. If things are fine for you the way they are, awesome, I hope you continue to have a great time. For people who might think the art was a little lacking and want to try to do something to get more out there, fine, there is something for you to do.

But it also isn't an either/or thing. It isn't like anyone has to choose one or the other. It isn't like it is a separate event or you have to place yourself in their space or anything. I think that is an area of confusion too. People think they have to pick one. You don't. BORG2 is part of the city just like the rest of it. They are just going (hopefully) to have some pretty cool shit there for everyone to experiance. And ... the art that is funded will be funded by popular vote, that's all the difference is, really. The council brings in candidate art. The people vote to choose which pieces they want funded, the funding goes out, and hopefully the art comes in. It is just a one time experiment in a democratic process for choosing and funding art.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:43 pm

I'm not taking issue with its existence or anything. I think i made it pretty clear in the earlier discussions that I believe a regional approach to be much more effective for tackling most of these issues and then some. You can read back on Jim's numerous threads if you want to hear it.

Cheers.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:53 pm

Well, maybe I agree with you in the regional aspect. I think I posted in the BORG2 tribe (or maybe it was here, I don't remember) that the regionals is a possible way the BORG2 concept could be assimillated by borg1 if it is successful. If the regionals could have a representative that serves on the global art council for burningman, that would be awesome. It would give the regionals some visibility into the selection process and provide another reason for people to get involved with their regional organization. Or possibly some funding could be delegated to the regionals directly for funding of projects from their region. I am all for stuff like that. And ... part of the purpose of this whole thing is to get people talking about these things.

The bottom line is that while we all know what the criteria is for consideration for art funding from burning man, exactly what they choose to fund and what they choose not to fund and the process surrounding that are invisible to the community and people want to be able to participate more in the selection process.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:16 pm

You can see Jeanavive's (The Network Girl) platform here:

http://www.thenetworkgirl.com/Links_to_ ... /Borg2.htm

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:37 pm

actually, that's not the kind of reginal action i'm talking about at all... i'm talking about raising our funds, distributing our funds, teaching each other, organising with each other....

much more democratic than any of this bruhaha.

you'd still need - no, not need, possibly want - some sort of larger support (particularly for those w/o much regional action) but there's no way to be involved like actually being involved.

than again, you're talking to someone who's region is creating their own LLC.

it's just a choice i make with BM - not to make my experience all about committees and meetings and crap. they don't need me to do it. and when it is needed of me, it can usually happen in a local bar. i tend to think i can do more this way that i'd accomplish the other.

just sayin.'