Borg2 - East Coast Opinions
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buckethead alien
- Posts: 2456
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:07 am
- Burning Since: 1997
- Location: Wrong Island
interesting point to ponder - considering NYC has had years of drama over about 4k in profits... i hope this angry mob of few at borg2 knows what theyre doing with the 250k they hope raise. otherwise they are truly fucked.
::StacycatS
Miss Black Rock City - The Self-Proclaimed Beauty Queen
http://www.missblackrockcity.com
Miss Black Rock City - The Self-Proclaimed Beauty Queen
http://www.missblackrockcity.com
Disgusting pile of shit
(taking a stroll through the eplaya, after a long time not here, only to find this pile of shit)
Amy Shapiro / Geekster, you should be ashamed of yourself.
To roll out such incendiary drivel on a public list, against someone like corey who has done so much for this community for so many years, with the support of so many, and supported so many in the process, and at the loss of so much money is, simply, disgusting and inexcusable. your blithe accusations have me shaking with anger and if a brick through this monitor would get to you i would throw it without hesitation. this is so terribly unfair and irresponsible of you i am having difficulty putting my disgust in adequately disgusting terms.
amy, what the fuck have you done here other than get freaked out that the BORG2 is somehow making you make this weird choice between 1 and 2 and that was too much for you to think about and you needed to post your confusion ad nausem, and in the process ignore nearly all the interesting ideas at issue. for an actual real artist like you are, your response to a creative social experiment has been decidely uncreative, fear-thinking, and tedious. like you wanted a done instructions manual for something everyone was in the process of trying to figure out through experimentation and play. kinda pathetic.
while trying to dredge up whatever hazy well-intended accounting that exists from hazy years ago, (like hazy old well-intended burning man event accounting) maybe cory should also show you her bank account statements from her voter drive project where she drove a bus across the nation for 3 months, registering people to vote, while spelling out the word "vote" by her chosen route. she lost in the neighborhood of 15k on that project i believe, but she thought it important to register people to vote and make a "log book" of people's thoughts along the way. deeply impressive project.
amy, this is a woman who picks up an idea and does it. she has done it again and again and again. with integrity and style. i have deep respect for this person. as does the whole LLC of burning man. as does larry harvey, whose office she spent a good deal of time in during her trip out here last week for the debates. as do so many artists and participants around the general project. as they have, for years.
also, this sf-centric whining about the BORG2 experiment is really geting tired, if not delusional, at this point. the art council will be divided into 6 california slots and 3 national slots. that is more "regional" tilted than the actual demographics of the event. 3 of the 4 national candidates are from the east coast (corey, peter durand and zach coffin) and one of the guest curator candidates is from nyc also (Madagascar). both corey and peter are heavily involved in the borg1 regional network. these are not angry old farts who pine for the old days of guns and 100MPH roof top car rides.
and yes, there will likely be a container organized from the east coast to the event this year by the BORG2. that will happen because corey figured out how to do it and did it for multiple years. many will likely continue to benefit from that hard work.
but amy, hopefully you will not. please keep your negativity, poor judgement, and extremely unhelpful input away from the BORG2 experiment. if there were any remaining confusions as to who you should play with, i think you just chose for yourself.
jim mason
Amy Shapiro / Geekster, you should be ashamed of yourself.
To roll out such incendiary drivel on a public list, against someone like corey who has done so much for this community for so many years, with the support of so many, and supported so many in the process, and at the loss of so much money is, simply, disgusting and inexcusable. your blithe accusations have me shaking with anger and if a brick through this monitor would get to you i would throw it without hesitation. this is so terribly unfair and irresponsible of you i am having difficulty putting my disgust in adequately disgusting terms.
amy, what the fuck have you done here other than get freaked out that the BORG2 is somehow making you make this weird choice between 1 and 2 and that was too much for you to think about and you needed to post your confusion ad nausem, and in the process ignore nearly all the interesting ideas at issue. for an actual real artist like you are, your response to a creative social experiment has been decidely uncreative, fear-thinking, and tedious. like you wanted a done instructions manual for something everyone was in the process of trying to figure out through experimentation and play. kinda pathetic.
while trying to dredge up whatever hazy well-intended accounting that exists from hazy years ago, (like hazy old well-intended burning man event accounting) maybe cory should also show you her bank account statements from her voter drive project where she drove a bus across the nation for 3 months, registering people to vote, while spelling out the word "vote" by her chosen route. she lost in the neighborhood of 15k on that project i believe, but she thought it important to register people to vote and make a "log book" of people's thoughts along the way. deeply impressive project.
amy, this is a woman who picks up an idea and does it. she has done it again and again and again. with integrity and style. i have deep respect for this person. as does the whole LLC of burning man. as does larry harvey, whose office she spent a good deal of time in during her trip out here last week for the debates. as do so many artists and participants around the general project. as they have, for years.
also, this sf-centric whining about the BORG2 experiment is really geting tired, if not delusional, at this point. the art council will be divided into 6 california slots and 3 national slots. that is more "regional" tilted than the actual demographics of the event. 3 of the 4 national candidates are from the east coast (corey, peter durand and zach coffin) and one of the guest curator candidates is from nyc also (Madagascar). both corey and peter are heavily involved in the borg1 regional network. these are not angry old farts who pine for the old days of guns and 100MPH roof top car rides.
and yes, there will likely be a container organized from the east coast to the event this year by the BORG2. that will happen because corey figured out how to do it and did it for multiple years. many will likely continue to benefit from that hard work.
but amy, hopefully you will not. please keep your negativity, poor judgement, and extremely unhelpful input away from the BORG2 experiment. if there were any remaining confusions as to who you should play with, i think you just chose for yourself.
jim mason
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GlowScreen
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:34 am
- Location: NYC
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Re: Disgusting pile of shit
I am stunned. I do not deserve such a vicious attack.jimmason wrote:(taking a stroll through the eplaya, after a long time not here, only to find this pile of shit)
Amy Shapiro / Geekster, you should be ashamed of yourself.
your response to a creative social experiment has been decidely uncreative, fear-thinking, and tedious. like you wanted a done instructions manual for something everyone was in the process of trying to figure out through experimentation and play. kinda pathetic.
but amy, hopefully you will not. please keep your negativity, poor judgement, and extremely unhelpful input away from the BORG2 experiment. if there were any remaining confusions as to who you should play with, i think you just chose for yourself.
jim mason
I'll tell you why I am not pathetic. I went to my community last week and asked them what they thought of the Borg2 experiment. I posted my findings here on eplaya to the community at large. A pathetic person does not take that kind of action. That is not unhelpful input. That is helpful input.
When Cory's platform was put up on this thread as an example that NYC was represented in Borg2 I did have a problem with that. I really am sorry that I mentioned it because I had no idea that it would start such a shitstorm.
I am not ashamed of myself.
amy
http://amyshapiro.com/
Amy,
I think jim's response was visceral because he, like so many other people,
have had personal experience with Lady Merv, and allegations she was
involved in embezzlement have been hard to take.
BUT I think it's good to see concerns raised. I think hearing from actiongrl
and others here who have sounded off in support of Lady Merv's integrity
has largely put this issue to rest.
Amy, my major concern is that some people interested in the BORG2
project cannot read tribe (where most of the discussion is occurring).
I think your comments on the NYC perspective and even the Lady Merv
business ultimately are supportive of BORG2 success. We need to hear the
unpleasant questions and comments. Please keep posting them.
harriet
I think jim's response was visceral because he, like so many other people,
have had personal experience with Lady Merv, and allegations she was
involved in embezzlement have been hard to take.
BUT I think it's good to see concerns raised. I think hearing from actiongrl
and others here who have sounded off in support of Lady Merv's integrity
has largely put this issue to rest.
Amy, my major concern is that some people interested in the BORG2
project cannot read tribe (where most of the discussion is occurring).
I think your comments on the NYC perspective and even the Lady Merv
business ultimately are supportive of BORG2 success. We need to hear the
unpleasant questions and comments. Please keep posting them.
harriet
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sweepinggirl
- Posts: 9
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- Location: E Harlem, NY
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amy
you did not start the shitstorm, you propagated it.
i think those who know cory and have come to her defense are so up in arms because, AGAIN, this is a serious accusation. Embezzlement is a crime.
if i were to post that i HEARD that your hair is not real, it's a weave, that's one thing. but if i post that i HEARD that you are a pedophile or a drug addict or an embezzler it is quite another.
one doesn't need a rulebook to know that SERIOUS allegations made on an international forum should be checked first. the golden rule of "do unto others..." covers that.
but for future reference, you could follow rule # 2 from the Society of Professional Journalists ethics rules:
"Diligently seek out subjects of news stories to give them the opportunity to respond to allegations of wrongdoing."
so as to avoid the possibility of Libel, defined as:
"Published material meeting three conditions: The material is defamatory either on its face or indirectly; The defamatory statement is about someone who is identifiable to one or more persons; and, The material must be distributed to someone other than the offended party; i.e. published"
above all i am curious, did you follow the link, amy? you give no indication that you read the explanation cory provided.
if you did not, that would leave the perception that you were not seeking an explanation, you just wanted to spread the shitstorm.
if you did, then are your 'concerns' answered?
peace
you did not start the shitstorm, you propagated it.
i think those who know cory and have come to her defense are so up in arms because, AGAIN, this is a serious accusation. Embezzlement is a crime.
if i were to post that i HEARD that your hair is not real, it's a weave, that's one thing. but if i post that i HEARD that you are a pedophile or a drug addict or an embezzler it is quite another.
one doesn't need a rulebook to know that SERIOUS allegations made on an international forum should be checked first. the golden rule of "do unto others..." covers that.
but for future reference, you could follow rule # 2 from the Society of Professional Journalists ethics rules:
"Diligently seek out subjects of news stories to give them the opportunity to respond to allegations of wrongdoing."
so as to avoid the possibility of Libel, defined as:
"Published material meeting three conditions: The material is defamatory either on its face or indirectly; The defamatory statement is about someone who is identifiable to one or more persons; and, The material must be distributed to someone other than the offended party; i.e. published"
above all i am curious, did you follow the link, amy? you give no indication that you read the explanation cory provided.
if you did not, that would leave the perception that you were not seeking an explanation, you just wanted to spread the shitstorm.
if you did, then are your 'concerns' answered?
peace
*energy
*connecting
*art
*connecting
*art
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Rian Jackson
- Posts: 3903
- Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:30 pm
- Location: In Rob's Head
i love it when jim models the very behaviours he rails against.
and it's nice to know that BORG2 is now choosing who can and can't be part of that social experiment.
ya'll, can you just LET IT FUCKING DIE?!?!
By now those that have berated Amy for her choice between two poor options have shown themselves to be everything they accused her of and more.
<plonk>
and it's nice to know that BORG2 is now choosing who can and can't be part of that social experiment.
ya'll, can you just LET IT FUCKING DIE?!?!
By now those that have berated Amy for her choice between two poor options have shown themselves to be everything they accused her of and more.
<plonk>
surlier than thou
The New York Community and a common mistake
New York City and the surrounding areas probably has a few thousand particpants of Burning Man living here part or full time.
We have had 4 decompressions with betweeen 1500 and 2100 people each time.
There have been numerous other events of grand scale in and around the city.
BRC, LLC would know the actual stats.
When Amy was speaking about her community, it is my impression that she was referring to the attendees of Asylum Village Happy Hour here in NYC which is a weekly gathering that last night, according to an email on the NYC list, had around 30 attendees.
I have heard people for years use the word 'community' land I am always interested in how we can best define it.
What is our "community", exactly?
I got this off of dictionary.com
com·mu·ni·ty:
#
1. A group of people living in the same locality and under the same government.
2. The district or locality in which such a group lives.
#
1. A group of people having common interests: the scientific community; the international business community.
2. A group viewed as forming a distinct segment of society: the gay community; the community of color.
#
1. Similarity or identity: a community of interests.
2. Sharing, participation, and fellowship.
# Society as a whole; the public.
Q
We have had 4 decompressions with betweeen 1500 and 2100 people each time.
There have been numerous other events of grand scale in and around the city.
BRC, LLC would know the actual stats.
When Amy was speaking about her community, it is my impression that she was referring to the attendees of Asylum Village Happy Hour here in NYC which is a weekly gathering that last night, according to an email on the NYC list, had around 30 attendees.
I have heard people for years use the word 'community' land I am always interested in how we can best define it.
What is our "community", exactly?
I got this off of dictionary.com
com·mu·ni·ty:
#
1. A group of people living in the same locality and under the same government.
2. The district or locality in which such a group lives.
#
1. A group of people having common interests: the scientific community; the international business community.
2. A group viewed as forming a distinct segment of society: the gay community; the community of color.
#
1. Similarity or identity: a community of interests.
2. Sharing, participation, and fellowship.
# Society as a whole; the public.
Q
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leftunsaid
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:06 am
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leftunsaid
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:06 am
lets just all say om and go back to the original spirit of burning man which is radical inclusion...and besides- we should all just love each other becuase life can be harsh- or e-playa boards for that matter...
lots of valid points raised, lots of good answers...lets all just appreciate that we can do this and dont live in n korea.
lots of valid points raised, lots of good answers...lets all just appreciate that we can do this and dont live in n korea.
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Rob the Wop
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leftunsaid
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Rian Jackson
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Bob
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Rob, the hippies I knew were all about titties, beer, guns, blowing shit up, or at least two of the above --- and don't you have your own regional crackheads to slander up there? I hear they eat uncooked tofu, wear mismatched plaids, voted Libertarian, and traumatize their children by telling them spotted owl stories.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/
"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
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Rian Jackson
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Rob the Wop
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Living next to Portland, I have plenty enough hippy ammo to go around.Bob wrote:Rob, the hippies I knew were all about titties, beer, guns, blowing shit up, or at least two of the above --- and don't you have your own regional crackheads to slander up there? I hear they eat uncooked tofu, wear mismatched plaids, voted Libertarian, and traumatize their children by telling them spotted owl stories.
And spotted owl tastes nowhere near as good as California condor.
BTW, I steadfastly refuse to believe in the existance of tofu. Any 'food' that requires other food to give it flavor must not exist.
"I flavor, therefore I am."
-Chef Rene Descartes
[b]The other, other white meat.[/b]
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Clay Taurus
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:50 am
- Location: NE Reality Camp
And this, this is why we don't like Borg2.
Jim,
If anyone here should be ashamed of themselves, it's you. Who the fuck do you think you are, you arrogant, self centered, bucket of shit? It's responses and attitudes like yours that have made us on the East Coast feel isolated and turned off by the whole Borg2 project. Do you even know one iota about the problems out here that haven't come from Cory's mouth? Have you even spoken to any of the people who have been involved in the problems out here to, oh, I don't know, get the whole story? No, I doubt it. You've been believing your 'friends' and not paying attention to anything else - just as we, out here, have suspected all along. The whole Borg2 project is nothing more than a clubhouse for the SF people to gang together and support each other - Larry forbid someone from outside your little "clique" should try and get anything done. Our fears that Non Bay Area people will be sidelined and this will turn into a huge "look at us we're Bay Area Artists" are for sure coming true.
If I were you, I'd ask before I leaped out and bit the head off of someone who was simply asking a question that has been a big ongoing problem out here. Cory, contrary to her fairy tale "history", has never answered questions about any of the financing issues and to this day will not accept responsibility for them. If she has - let her prove it. There is a lot of proof lined up against her - let her show prove they're wrong. Otherwise, it is just a bunch of hot air.
If anyone here should be ashamed of themselves, it's you. Who the fuck do you think you are, you arrogant, self centered, bucket of shit? It's responses and attitudes like yours that have made us on the East Coast feel isolated and turned off by the whole Borg2 project. Do you even know one iota about the problems out here that haven't come from Cory's mouth? Have you even spoken to any of the people who have been involved in the problems out here to, oh, I don't know, get the whole story? No, I doubt it. You've been believing your 'friends' and not paying attention to anything else - just as we, out here, have suspected all along. The whole Borg2 project is nothing more than a clubhouse for the SF people to gang together and support each other - Larry forbid someone from outside your little "clique" should try and get anything done. Our fears that Non Bay Area people will be sidelined and this will turn into a huge "look at us we're Bay Area Artists" are for sure coming true.
If I were you, I'd ask before I leaped out and bit the head off of someone who was simply asking a question that has been a big ongoing problem out here. Cory, contrary to her fairy tale "history", has never answered questions about any of the financing issues and to this day will not accept responsibility for them. If she has - let her prove it. There is a lot of proof lined up against her - let her show prove they're wrong. Otherwise, it is just a bunch of hot air.
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Clay Taurus
- Posts: 4
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- Location: NE Reality Camp
Re: Disgusting pile of shit
Maybe you should talk to TheStickNYC guys instead. They actually ran the container this year and did it better than Cory ever did. Not only did they make money (something Cory claims to not have managed in 3 years) while keeping costs the same as 2003, but they were innovative and extremely organized. Everybody was able to get their stuff on and off the container with no problems, they were on the playa where they said they would be when they said it would be (again, something Cory couldn't do), and their finances were open and transparent (again - she's never done that).jimmason wrote:(taking a stroll through the eplaya, after a long time not here, only to find this pile of shit)
and yes, there will likely be a container organized from the east coast to the event this year by the BORG2. that will happen because corey figured out how to do it and did it for multiple years. many will likely continue to benefit from that hard work.
jim mason
But, I'm sure you'll ignore what I have to say and go with Cory anyway. Truth be damned.
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Bob
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Gawd, what a bunch of pansy-assed dipshits. You're not really from New York, are you?
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/
"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
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geekster
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Well, she has my vote. While I do not personally know many of the community that surrounds her that stepped up, some of the people I know do know them and I have a certain degree of respect for their integrity. So for now I will place my faith in that web of trust because that is kinda what it's there for.
I guess what saddens me most is that there are some people that try to tear down or detract from people when they attempt to do something new and bold. BORG2 is an awesome experiment that I fully support and intend to do whatever I can to help it succeed in producing one awesome event in 05. I think LadyMerv is exactly the kind of person that can get things done. It's big, it's bold, it's new and improved ... it's BORG2. Muaaahahahahaha
I guess what saddens me most is that there are some people that try to tear down or detract from people when they attempt to do something new and bold. BORG2 is an awesome experiment that I fully support and intend to do whatever I can to help it succeed in producing one awesome event in 05. I think LadyMerv is exactly the kind of person that can get things done. It's big, it's bold, it's new and improved ... it's BORG2. Muaaahahahahaha
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
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geekster
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It is also much easier to take a process that someone else designed and improve on it. That someone else was able to learn from what had been done for a couple of years previously and do it better doesn't surprise me in the least. Matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the process gets even better this year than last. You learn when you do things. You learn what works, what doesn't, what needs improvement and what needs to be eliminated. The point is that she is the one that actually DID it and got the ball rolling. That someone was able to push that ball and get it rolling a little faster isn't at all surprising. Congratulations are due for a good job, but why the need to tear into someone else? When I see that it usually means there is some kind of sour grapes about something. THAT is where I think the real issue lies. There is some kind of struggle somewhere over something and one party would rather discredit the other party than out DO them.
I don't recall TheStickNYC guys advancing a candidate.
I don't recall TheStickNYC guys advancing a candidate.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
As for the discussion about Lady Merv's involvement in the financing, I think it's good that concerns are discussed openly. But I think we'll all benefit if we can try to avoid being mean-spirited (that includes you, Jim, and even you a little bit Amy and just about every else.)
> The whole Borg2 project is nothing more than a clubhouse for the SF people to gang together and support each other -
I disagree that the BORG2 project is no more than a half-baked attempt to promote local, clannish SF interests. The originators of the project-- Chicken John and Jim Mason-- both manage to alienate people on a regular basis. BUT I think they both mean well with this project. I think they both mean to stimulate GENERAL interest in the Burning Man event. I do not believe they are any more motivated by self-interest than anyone else. I believe they both want to see an honest election of council candidates, and for christ's sake they even went so far as to offer to fly people out to the Bay Area for the council debates.
And now there are people involved who are not as obstreperous as CJ and jim, and who can lead the BORG2 with perhaps less dramatic outrage but also with less inflammatory dialogue.
So don't dismiss the BORG2 yet. Tolerate it while we figure out how things will work. Then when the project has some money to offer, you can decide whether it's worth applying for a BORG2 grant. In the meantime, keep voicing your concerns.
> The whole Borg2 project is nothing more than a clubhouse for the SF people to gang together and support each other -
I disagree that the BORG2 project is no more than a half-baked attempt to promote local, clannish SF interests. The originators of the project-- Chicken John and Jim Mason-- both manage to alienate people on a regular basis. BUT I think they both mean well with this project. I think they both mean to stimulate GENERAL interest in the Burning Man event. I do not believe they are any more motivated by self-interest than anyone else. I believe they both want to see an honest election of council candidates, and for christ's sake they even went so far as to offer to fly people out to the Bay Area for the council debates.
And now there are people involved who are not as obstreperous as CJ and jim, and who can lead the BORG2 with perhaps less dramatic outrage but also with less inflammatory dialogue.
So don't dismiss the BORG2 yet. Tolerate it while we figure out how things will work. Then when the project has some money to offer, you can decide whether it's worth applying for a BORG2 grant. In the meantime, keep voicing your concerns.
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geekster
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Also, I think they both REALIZE that many people don't "get" them and that is exactly WHY they are handing the whole thing off to the council next week. That is a gesture of true love, really. You want to see it succeed and you know that the only way to do that is to let it go and let the group you have provided an environment to form take it over. I really don't give a rat's pair of hips what anyone says, it is an awesome gift those two are giving and it is mainly just giving us the gift of ourselves. It isn't about saying once we get past Wednesday ... it is about DOing.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
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Chicken John
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Responce to Amy Glowscreen by Chicken John
"Also, if there was no embezzlement, then why do so many people think that there was? "
First of all allow me to say that I make my living having parties. I own a bar, I do huge events, I own 4 PA systems, jockey boxes, 2 trucks, I employ 11 people... the whole bit. I am a qualified outsider that doesn't know Cory very well. I have a statement to make:
There is always a bunch of people after an event that think the event made more money than it did.
And boy do they want to know where that money is going. I don't run a collective. It's just me. Anyone who contributes to my shows or whatever gets paid, and it's worked out in advance. People who play at the bar all get paid and I pay really well. Any problem with money or a mis-communication I throw my hands up and pay what they want. Sometimes I pay extra. You fucking have to, people are so suspicious. Face it, everyone wants to throw events and not have to have some shitty job. So they glamorize the position. They see 600 people dancing and drinking and think that the next day I'll be counting $30,000 one dollar bills. The fact is there is never as much as you'd think. Or want. People display a serious lack of diplomacy when being confrontational about money from events. I've seen it happen for 20 years. That's why I do the events that I do the way I do them. ALONE. I want people to respect me as a buisness man. I want to support performers. I want to give kick ass shows for $5. I do it every weekend.
Which brings us to amy's mild accusation of Cory embesseling money. I didn't see it as even that much of an accusation. It was done in a casual way. It's amazing how amy just tossed it out there, with no forethought. With zero relization of what she was doing. Without any humility, tact or understanding. Amy, you likely made Cory cry. If someone accused me of stealing from the people I adore so much I would fucking cry. The Borg2 may be a bit confrontational in our tactics but our intentions are to make more art and have fun. Noone is railing on a specific person (except Jim and Bee who are railing on each other and even then they are just calling each other clueless, noone is charging them with any crimes). I think that you didn't relise what you were doing. I don't think you thought it through. You should have, you would likely not have done that.
Cory is running for art council. She is campaigning. Now is her time. Now is time to support Cory. Not make unfounded claims in this already flawed public forum. These things are like shit-storm generators. I quit E-playa a while ago but was dragged her this morning from someone I respect who thought that I could either do something or make fun of everyone. I think I'll take another approach:
Amy, your a theif. Your stealing from your place of employment. You are on someone's clock right now and you posting to this board. If they found out they would likely block your access to it, repremand you or fire you.
Now wait a minute. The above statement was a presumption. I don't really know where you are right now. I don't know what deal you have with your boss nor do I know what their policy is. The above statement is an example of inflammatory behavior. If I were to write something like that you would likely defend yourself and then correct me and tell me I sucked then I would apologize and that would be that.
But what if the books that were kept from Cory's event were lost? Or the accounting sucked (likely)? What if the accounting was impeckable but you decided to not beleive it? What if the money was stolen or lost?
It's all about leadership. Cory organized an event. The people who organize events have the responsablility of dealing with the money. They usually don't do it correctly the first time or the thrid time. Ya see, it's important to let new people have new experiences. Cory showed (or at least tried to show) leadership and provide for the people. I beleive that she acted selflessly. Provide an event for the people. Raise some money. It's all romantic. Your mindless accusation (mindless as in you didn't use your mind enough when accusing her) is the dark side of showing leadership. There is always a dark side. My post here today is an affermation that if there aren't entire websites written about what an asshole you are you not doing enough stuff. Your gonna draw some fire from the loudmouths but the good people will respect you. So for every Rhian Jackson screaming at the top of her lungs there are many more taking quite note. It's those other people that are important.
So in my humble opinion I think that Amy made an error. At least she could have presented it a little better and then leave an out for herself so that people (like Jim) can't decend on her and bash her into next week. But it's not as much what she wrote it was in the way she wrote it, kinda off-hand or something. I don't think that she doesn't have the right to write whatever she damn well pleases, I just want to try to live in a world that is free from that kinda thing. It's one thing to make demands of the event that you put so much of yourself into and another thing to accuse someone of a felony that would fetch up to 5 years fed-pen (over $2,500).
I don't know Cory very well and don't need to. Everyone who ever touched the money at any giant event was accused of stealing some of it. Everyone. Each and every one. All of them. 20 years. Same story over and over again.
I don't know Amy very well either. I had a phone conversation with her to try to get her to back off a bit as she was starting to show signs of being a total pain in the ass. I gave her the benifit of the doubt, maybe she just wasn't as articulate or somethiing. Her posts were single minded and accusing. So I asked to speak to her on the phone. Talked to her for an hour. Tried to win her over, ya know. Diplomacy. I regret that now, and would prefer she stayed over there... I'd rather have Cory. So the comedy here is that Amy was going on and on that we are making people chose sides between Borg1 and Borg2 (which is not true) and now Amy sees how easy it is to create sides. Borg2 is chosing to side with Cory. So is Borg1. So it's perfect, actually. Borg1 and Borg2 happily together with no more Amy to accuse us of anything anymore. Perfect.
We protect our own. Welcome Cory.
First of all allow me to say that I make my living having parties. I own a bar, I do huge events, I own 4 PA systems, jockey boxes, 2 trucks, I employ 11 people... the whole bit. I am a qualified outsider that doesn't know Cory very well. I have a statement to make:
There is always a bunch of people after an event that think the event made more money than it did.
And boy do they want to know where that money is going. I don't run a collective. It's just me. Anyone who contributes to my shows or whatever gets paid, and it's worked out in advance. People who play at the bar all get paid and I pay really well. Any problem with money or a mis-communication I throw my hands up and pay what they want. Sometimes I pay extra. You fucking have to, people are so suspicious. Face it, everyone wants to throw events and not have to have some shitty job. So they glamorize the position. They see 600 people dancing and drinking and think that the next day I'll be counting $30,000 one dollar bills. The fact is there is never as much as you'd think. Or want. People display a serious lack of diplomacy when being confrontational about money from events. I've seen it happen for 20 years. That's why I do the events that I do the way I do them. ALONE. I want people to respect me as a buisness man. I want to support performers. I want to give kick ass shows for $5. I do it every weekend.
Which brings us to amy's mild accusation of Cory embesseling money. I didn't see it as even that much of an accusation. It was done in a casual way. It's amazing how amy just tossed it out there, with no forethought. With zero relization of what she was doing. Without any humility, tact or understanding. Amy, you likely made Cory cry. If someone accused me of stealing from the people I adore so much I would fucking cry. The Borg2 may be a bit confrontational in our tactics but our intentions are to make more art and have fun. Noone is railing on a specific person (except Jim and Bee who are railing on each other and even then they are just calling each other clueless, noone is charging them with any crimes). I think that you didn't relise what you were doing. I don't think you thought it through. You should have, you would likely not have done that.
Cory is running for art council. She is campaigning. Now is her time. Now is time to support Cory. Not make unfounded claims in this already flawed public forum. These things are like shit-storm generators. I quit E-playa a while ago but was dragged her this morning from someone I respect who thought that I could either do something or make fun of everyone. I think I'll take another approach:
Amy, your a theif. Your stealing from your place of employment. You are on someone's clock right now and you posting to this board. If they found out they would likely block your access to it, repremand you or fire you.
Now wait a minute. The above statement was a presumption. I don't really know where you are right now. I don't know what deal you have with your boss nor do I know what their policy is. The above statement is an example of inflammatory behavior. If I were to write something like that you would likely defend yourself and then correct me and tell me I sucked then I would apologize and that would be that.
But what if the books that were kept from Cory's event were lost? Or the accounting sucked (likely)? What if the accounting was impeckable but you decided to not beleive it? What if the money was stolen or lost?
It's all about leadership. Cory organized an event. The people who organize events have the responsablility of dealing with the money. They usually don't do it correctly the first time or the thrid time. Ya see, it's important to let new people have new experiences. Cory showed (or at least tried to show) leadership and provide for the people. I beleive that she acted selflessly. Provide an event for the people. Raise some money. It's all romantic. Your mindless accusation (mindless as in you didn't use your mind enough when accusing her) is the dark side of showing leadership. There is always a dark side. My post here today is an affermation that if there aren't entire websites written about what an asshole you are you not doing enough stuff. Your gonna draw some fire from the loudmouths but the good people will respect you. So for every Rhian Jackson screaming at the top of her lungs there are many more taking quite note. It's those other people that are important.
So in my humble opinion I think that Amy made an error. At least she could have presented it a little better and then leave an out for herself so that people (like Jim) can't decend on her and bash her into next week. But it's not as much what she wrote it was in the way she wrote it, kinda off-hand or something. I don't think that she doesn't have the right to write whatever she damn well pleases, I just want to try to live in a world that is free from that kinda thing. It's one thing to make demands of the event that you put so much of yourself into and another thing to accuse someone of a felony that would fetch up to 5 years fed-pen (over $2,500).
I don't know Cory very well and don't need to. Everyone who ever touched the money at any giant event was accused of stealing some of it. Everyone. Each and every one. All of them. 20 years. Same story over and over again.
I don't know Amy very well either. I had a phone conversation with her to try to get her to back off a bit as she was starting to show signs of being a total pain in the ass. I gave her the benifit of the doubt, maybe she just wasn't as articulate or somethiing. Her posts were single minded and accusing. So I asked to speak to her on the phone. Talked to her for an hour. Tried to win her over, ya know. Diplomacy. I regret that now, and would prefer she stayed over there... I'd rather have Cory. So the comedy here is that Amy was going on and on that we are making people chose sides between Borg1 and Borg2 (which is not true) and now Amy sees how easy it is to create sides. Borg2 is chosing to side with Cory. So is Borg1. So it's perfect, actually. Borg1 and Borg2 happily together with no more Amy to accuse us of anything anymore. Perfect.
We protect our own. Welcome Cory.
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GlowScreen
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:34 am
- Location: NYC
- Contact:
I'm being unfairly portrayed as some kind of monster. I'm not. My original reason for starting this thread was to facilitate communication regarding Borg2 from the East to the West.
I have already said that I wish I had not thoughtlessly repeated gossip.
I am not trying to work against Borg2, in fact I want to see it be a glorious success.
Chicken, I thought we had a good phone conversation. You made your concerns very clear, and I did as I said I would which was to communicate your opinions to my community.
Yes, I am stealing from my employer by writing to you right now.
amy
I have already said that I wish I had not thoughtlessly repeated gossip.
I am not trying to work against Borg2, in fact I want to see it be a glorious success.
Chicken, I thought we had a good phone conversation. You made your concerns very clear, and I did as I said I would which was to communicate your opinions to my community.
Yes, I am stealing from my employer by writing to you right now.
amy
http://amyshapiro.com/
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Rian Jackson
- Posts: 3903
- Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:30 pm
- Location: In Rob's Head
ahem. to clarify.
those 'quiet people' who are taking note have, by now, taken in the pros and cons to raising such issues in different ways.
i'd simply like to see this stop because now is utterly destructive - for people and for communities. all points have been heard. repeatedly.
this has now gone beyond the most odious behaviour i've ever seen here.
all anyone's doing now is making the 'quiet people' - and us loudmouths - lose all respect for ya'll.
can we all move back to semi-productive ground now?
those 'quiet people' who are taking note have, by now, taken in the pros and cons to raising such issues in different ways.
i'd simply like to see this stop because now is utterly destructive - for people and for communities. all points have been heard. repeatedly.
this has now gone beyond the most odious behaviour i've ever seen here.
all anyone's doing now is making the 'quiet people' - and us loudmouths - lose all respect for ya'll.
can we all move back to semi-productive ground now?
surlier than thou
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BeckyParty
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:48 am
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
- Contact:
Re: For your consideration
actiongrl wrote:I have known Cory for many years and am the manager of the Regional Contacts program. The finances for all Decoms have been available to us (and the New York Community) and I can verify that "tens of thousands of dollars" are *not* "missing" from those budgets, and there is no reason to believe that Cory nor Leslie "embezzled" money from the New York community.
How come actiongrl is the only one that says that she has seen the finances for all the decoms, when even Cory admits that the records for all 2001 and 2002 SEAL events are "limited in varying degrees"? As far as I know, actiongrl is the only one who seems the think that the financials are in order for 2001 and 2002. The financials from these years were NEVER available to the New York Community. If they are availabe as you say, then where are they? Lots of folks in NYC would love to know.