Borg2 - East Coast Opinions

[Rob the Wop]

Will anyone at least acknowledge borg3?

Don't they get a spot in your hearts too?

[leftunsaid]

ah Clay Taurus- who are ya?

If the container made money- we should get a refund? it was never advertised as a for profit endeavor...

and what kind of books did you publish- somethng that you had to join a yahoo group to see, or the one thats actually missing the money, lets see, yeah the money SEAL let ya that they have accounted for...

we're back to stones from glass houses i see...

Amy made a comment- her word choice was poor and I'm sure she didnt mean to have it turn into this and was just asking...some of the responses here have been amazingly viscious...if you really think that she was so mean then how can you answer in such a mean spirit...

[leftunsaid]

oh and clay taurus- my first exposure to the people running the container was someone yelling at me "get the fuck out of here" when i pulled up and there was no where to park and no signs indicating where to park...

nice introduction to the container crew. im sure a lot of new burners there really felt at home after that

[zekeman]

Howdy awl:

Sorry to jump into this so late in the game and break up the love fest, but I was just reading up on all the ballyhoo and figured I'd step in and speak up for myself.

For those that don't know me, my name is Zeke and I'm one of the founders (along with Satan, Splinter and The Mayor) of TheStickNYC here in NYC. We were responsible for The Container project from NYC to BRC this year and I figured I'd answer a few of the questions posed here about the container and other sundry finance stuff.

It is also much easier to take a process that someone else designed and improve on it. That someone else was able to learn from what had been done for a couple of years previously and do it better doesn't surprise me in the least.

This is generally true, but not in this case. Aside from a 10 page paper that was given to us (which wasn't much help) we had to do and kinda learn everything on our own. No website was given to us, no legalese, no contacts to container companies, no processes or organization - we had to come up with all that on our own. I say kinda, 'cause I've done this before - several times in fact. I've shipped tons of stuff via container for other projects I've worked on, so I'm pretty familiar with the process. Thus the reason why I took on the project when Cory decided not to do it any longer. The rest of it we figured out as we went along. So, this wasn't a project built on someone's shoulders as much as it was a project built next to someone, looking over their shoulder. I'm not here to slam Cory, she did what she did for 3 years, but to rest the accomplishments that we made on her shoulders is not fair to those of us who busted our asses this year to make sure the project went off without a hitch.

Matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the process gets even better this year than last. You learn when you do things. You learn what works, what doesn't, what needs improvement and what needs to be eliminated. The point is that she is the one that actually DID it and got the ball rolling. That someone was able to push that ball and get it rolling a little faster isn't at all surprising. Congratulations are due for a good job, but why the need to tear into someone else? When I see that it usually means there is some kind of sour grapes about something. THAT is where I think the real issue lies. There is some kind of struggle somewhere over something and one party would rather discredit the other party than out DO them.

You're absolutely right - it will be done better this year than last. First off - we're opening up the container project nationwide. We're going to leverage what we learned last year with our contacts and experience to allow any group that wants to, the opportunity to have access to a container. A very simple, turnkey operation. I've already spoken with ActionGirl about it and we're starting to put all the pieces in place. As soon as we're ready, we'll announce it.

I don't recall TheStickNYC guys advancing a candidate.

Correct, we didn't. Quite honestly, we're too busy with other things and are taking a wait and see attitude. In addition to The Container project, 2 of us are Rangers and some of us help run Asylum Village. I can't speak for the others, but my attitude is that I'll do what I was already planning to do and see what happens. Several of us already have serious misgivings about the project and how we (on the East Coast) are going to be represented. Rants by Jim Mason and wholesale acts of support without know the whole story behind things don't exactly make those misgivings go away. If Borg2 works and satisfies our doubts, then there is always next year. If it doesn't, then I didn't lose any sleep. In the meantime, I'm gonna help my peeps out here get there and have as good a time, and make as much art, as possible. That's where my priorities lay. Your mileage may differ.

If the container made money- we should get a refund? it was never advertised as a for profit endeavor...

Actually, it was. http://www.thesticknyc.org/thecontainer ... erfaq.html Read FAQ #27

We were VERY up front about the fact the container was going to be a for profit venture with the profits to be used for the community and that's what has been done.

and what kind of books did you publish

The finances are here. http://www.thesticknyc.org/thecontainer ... ainer.html Follow the link at the bottom of the page. Note the profits listed and the detailed expenses. I can show you receipts if you wish.

SEAL gave us $1000, but we were told to keep that quiet - so we did. Every last dime that came in is accounted for and the finances are clearly available to the world. We did this because:
a) We said we would. We do what we say we'll do.
b) We thought people should know how these things actually work and what kind of money goes into them
c) Because it wasn't difficult to do. An envelope to keep receipts in and a spreadsheet to do calculations is all that's needed.

I work in finance as a project manager and analyst. Before this, I worked as a Film, TV & Videogame producer. Needless to say, numbers are a big part of my life and I treat them very seriously. This is especially true when I'm dealing with other peoples money and the fact that anything I currently do regarding money is under the jurisdiction of several gov't agencies by virtue of my job. That said, I'd never put my future in jepordy for a few thousand $'s and I make enough that the point is moot. I do what I do for the love of doing it and see the potential profits earned as helping us to build something for our future.

something that you had to join a yahoo group to see, or the one that's actually missing the money, lets see, yeah the money SEAL let ya that they have accounted for...

Now you're mixing your projects up. The numbers on the yahoo group belong to Asylum Village which is NOT the whole NYC community. Consequently, the only people that should be able to see those numbers are the members of Asylum village and I was very clear about that. The "missing" money wasn't actually missing. The spreadsheet you're referring to - which was sent to one particular person - is the money that accounted for donations collected through 12-5-04 and hadn't been applied to the accounting at the time that one particular person got the spreadsheet. That was mentioned in the email I posted to the NYC list when I told everyone where the finances were - go back and read it again or find it in the archive. I find it pretty interesting that I'm being chastised - on ePlaya of all places - for putting MORE money into the pot, not less, and taking responsibility for the projects and money I've handled thus far. WOW. Now THAT'S a creative smear campaign. If I've made any mistakes they are mistakes I'VE made and I take ownership of them - I don't pass the buck. So, before you throw stones, be VERY careful who you're throwing them at. Them have a tendency to bounce back.

BTW: Could you please point me in the direction of where this "accounted for" exists. I seem to have missed the announcement and I have some questions ......

Just my .03

Cheers,
Z.

p.s. Who are you "leftunsaid" Anonymity when lashing out is very uncouth and cowardly.

[geekster]

There will be no "next year" for BORG2, it is a one-time experiment in using more democratic and inclusive methods for getting things done. Basically it is about the community electing their leaders for certain roles rather than having appointees do it.

[theCryptofishist]

Will anyone at least acknowledge borg3?

Don't they get a spot in your hearts too?

Oh, honey, one of my favorite mathematicians is in that tribe. He's long had a softspot in my heart.

[Bob]

Your first post here? Gee, welcome to the eplaya, B****.

[buckethead alien]

Anybody want to fuck?

[Bob]

Damn Edit button still doesn't work. Nevermind. Ahem.

No one wants to libel Larry?

The Artery?

Stu?

How about me?

[Chicken John]

Can I just say that you are the most articulate person I have ever read here on eplaya. I don't know who you are or what you do but your tone is awesome. I am a huge fan. If there is ever anything I can do for you just let me know. You are action personified, and I respect and admire you. You wrote that huge thing without one disparaging remark. You are better than me in every way, and I defer to your better judgement. You win the eplaya game.

spining with awe, chicken john

[Sandwichman]

Anybody want to fuck?

Nice tits.

[Rob the Wop]

Can I just say that you are the most articulate person I have ever read here on eplaya. I don't know who you are or what you do but your tone is awesome. I am a huge fan. If there is ever anything I can do for you just let me know. You are action personified, and I respect and admire you. You wrote that huge thing without one disparaging remark. You are better than me in every way, and I defer to your better judgement. You win the eplaya game.

spining with awe, chicken john

Well gee, you could have summed that all up with a "nice tits" too.

[geekster]

I have known Cory for many years and am the manager of the Regional Contacts program. The finances for all Decoms have been available to us (and the New York Community) and I can verify that "tens of thousands of dollars" are *not* "missing" from those budgets, and there is no reason to believe that Cory nor Leslie "embezzled" money from the New York community.

How come actiongrl is the only one that says that she has seen the finances for all the decoms, when even Cory admits that the records for all 2001 and 2002 SEAL events are "limited in varying degrees"? As far as I know, actiongrl is the only one who seems the think that the financials are in order for 2001 and 2002. The financials from these years were NEVER available to the New York Community. If they are availabe as you say, then where are they? Lots of folks in NYC would love to know.

Does it really matter? Was the time you had worth the effort/contribution you put into it? If so ... then fuck it, who cares.

That's kindof the way I see burningman ... pay buy my ticket, I have an experiance. Was the experiance worth it? If yes, I don't care what they did with the money, I got my experiance. Others may have a different view on things but hey, I really don't care.

[GlowScreen]

I have known Cory for many years and am the manager of the Regional Contacts program. The finances for all Decoms have been available to us (and the New York Community) and I can verify that "tens of thousands of dollars" are *not* "missing" from those budgets, and there is no reason to believe that Cory nor Leslie "embezzled" money from the New York community.

How come actiongrl is the only one that says that she has seen the finances for all the decoms, when even Cory admits that the records for all 2001 and 2002 SEAL events are "limited in varying degrees"? As far as I know, actiongrl is the only one who seems the think that the financials are in order for 2001 and 2002. The financials from these years were NEVER available to the New York Community. If they are availabe as you say, then where are they? Lots of folks in NYC would love to know.

Does it really matter? Was the time you had worth the effort/contribution you put into it? If so ... then fuck it, who cares.

When I said this I started a shitstorm, got called names, and kicked out of Borg2. However, when someone backs me up and says the same thing, you say it doesn't matter.

Either it matters or it doesn't.

amy

[Rian Jackson]

libel...How about me?

can i, Bob? you know it's one of my favorite activities.

sorry, did the rest of you say something? i didn't hear you. i was staring at your....

urg, nevermind.

[zzberlin]

> When I said this I started a shitstorm, got called names, and kicked out of Borg2.

Amy, what do you mean when you say you got kicked out of BORG2?

[GlowScreen]

> When I said this I started a shitstorm, got called names, and kicked out of Borg2.

Amy, what do you mean when you say you got kicked out of BORG2?

Both the founders of this project have recently said to me...

Jim wrote:

but amy... please keep your negativity, poor judgement, and extremely unhelpful input away from the BORG2 experiment. if there were any remaining confusions as to who you should play with, i think you just chose for yourself.

Chicken wrote:

Borg2 is chosing to side with Cory. So is Borg1. So it's perfect, actually. Borg1 and Borg2 happily together with no more Amy to accuse us of anything anymore. Perfect.

That is why I said that I have been kicked out of the Borg2 experiment. My intentions in starting this thread were good, but no one here will ever believe that. It appears that I've been excommunicated.

amy

[Cabanasprings]

Glow - I had a stressful job that I really loved. Worked with a lot of great people that I thought were my friends. And I got fired for asking too many questions of the bosses. I thought my life was over. Within two months I had a new job making more money with very little stress. I met the love of my life and look back and laugh at how lucky I was that happened. Coinceidently, most of people that I thought were my friends have left now too. True story.

Just a thought.

[geekster]

As far as I know, if you are on the mailing list, you have a vote. You can't be "kicked off" unless you have been unsubscribed or unsubscribed yourself. If you were emailed a copy of the BORG2 Bullhorn from BORG2, you can vote.

All in all, it was probably better to get this out of the way earlier rather than later but yeah, an email directly to her first would have probably been best but hindsight is always 20/20.

[sleepy]

I've tried many times to respond to this thread, perhaps this time I've got it.

This turned into being about Cory Mervis. What is important is, "Would Cory be a good organizer for BORG2".

The answer, yes. She has a track record of getting things done (barrel project, voterdrive, Larry at Cooper Union). She and her husband Leslie have an amazing aura about them, are go getters, have the gift of gab like no one else, they infuse in their current cadre of friends a level of devotion that borders on cultism. They have a way of rousing people to do and say things that range from amazing to reprehensible.

Cory is a beautiful, wacky, cowgirl who can drive a 3/4 size school bus around the smallest streets in Manhattan, and park it anywhere. She is devoted to the cause of Burningman to a fault.

However, and you should have known this was coming, there is one thing you should know.

Cory and Company also created a real mess in New York. An actual, real, still unaccounted for mess. The fact that she's gotten all you people on the West Coast who were not there, were not invovled, have only heard one side of the issue, so up in arms and ready to defend her, is a tribute to her ability to keep going through a shit storm, even one she herself created.

I just deleted something that was going to mention names and a post that actually has completely innacurate information, but then I would be digressing.

The reality of this is, no matter how high up anyone in The Project is, no matter how much they say, "I know what actually happened and it's...", no matter how much of a jerk Jim Mason is to someone who thought she was in a dialogue with adults, no matter how many new friends Cory has made since the New York community fell into "Where's the money" mode, no matter how fervently those who see what she has done lately exclaim, "Integrity, Hard work, artist, devoted...", one fact remains

If Cory makes a mess of something, she isn't concerned with cleaning it up or coming clean about it. She will let it persist to the detriment of the community. She will rally new people to her side and do really good stuff that will make them think it not possible that she could have been involved with something that is so aging and putrid.

This is a fact, if you want proof, re-read this list. Issues of money from three years ago should have been put to sleep years ago. That this could be mentioned in 2005, and cause this kind of uproar sort of tells you that it certainly wasn't resolved. It should have been.

Chicken John understands this, I believe. And said as much. If someone bitches loudly about money, take care of it. The community in New York has been asking about this since it happened. Believe me, we aren't sitting around here figuring out ways to bring it up again, but when it does, it's a mess, it's a conversation halter, it's our 800 pound gorilla that is always in the room and it was created by Cory and Leslie.

Sorry, but no matter what kind of understandable devotion you have to Cory, the fact remains, Cory and Co. created a mess in the New York Community. It is real, not imagined. It will not go away because you all think she is a wonderful person. It could go away, but only Cory can do that. I've told her as such privately and all I get in return is double talk.

Regarding BORG2, Cory will do a fine job. Regarding past events in New York, Cory created a big mess that she has personally stated she will not discuss anymore. That issue will not go away until she decides to clean it up. It has been a thorn in the side of the community for years, and could have been dealt with any number of ways and put to sleep. Cory's poor handling of it has been a detriment to the community. It's still being talked about in 2005.

This ends the portion of this post that deals with anything having to do with BORG2.

I will now tell who I am and what I know of the New York mess. Not in total (it would take a long time which I don't have right now) and not because I want to, but because I have to present the other side of the story so that you can know that I am not a "shit thrower", am not holding a grudge, and that I have many other things I would like to devote my time to, including The Project, BORG2 and my personal life other than talking about old old New York situations.

-----------------

Who the F#@(#$ are you buddy?

This is Splinter. In Reality Camp, my name is Mark Harder.

Why do you know so much about all this?

Well, primarily because I was one of the people who helped start the mess.

Burner since 99
Black Rock Ranger since 2000
Rangered in BRC 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004
Black Rock Ranger Mentor Program Manager 2002, 2003, 2004
Currently Special Projects Manager for Black Rock Ranger Council
Black Rock Ranger Shift Leader
Black Rock Ranger Trainer
Burningman Staffer (I get staff emails)
Director of Training Playa del Fuego rangers since inception
Flipside ranger
Co-Founder of Freak Scouts NYC

Member, Madagascar Institute

Co-founder of thesticknyc.org
Which has done a number of events in NYC including but not limited to running the containers to BRC in 2004 and bringing Larry Harvey to NYC to speak in an event called "The Rabbi, The Reverend and the Renegade"
Arthur Wascow, Rev. Billy and Larry.

In charge of burning Johnny on the Spot, 2003

Proposed large scale burning art project to Burningman for 2004. "Ptolomy's Observatory" which made it to the final round of consideration. Not funded due to increased cost of the Man's observatory.
(if anyone has the time or desire to help me put that info on a web site to show "what didn't get funded last year" it would probably help the cause of BORG 2)

Former "Community Elected" Board member of SEAL
There were elections for board members of SEAL. The executive committee of Cory, Leslie and another person never officially included us in anything.

Ran the Bar with my own money at the NYC Decom 2001 Gave the entire profit of around 6000 dollars cash to Cory and Leslie at the end of the night

I kept the Bartenders tips hoping to use it as seed money for some cool project. 2 years later when someone finally said, hey, what happened to all that tip money? I'm broke and could use it. I discussed it with the rest of the bartenders and it was agreed to give money to people who wanted it, buy tickets to the 2003 decom for those who wanted it and the rest of the people said "Splinter, you do what you think is right with it". I took the envelope that still had the cash from that night and I bought more tickets, in cash, from the organizer Leslie and gave them to people who were broke in the community

In 2002, I ran security for the Decom. I ended up holding the cash that night. At the end of the event, after security had been paid, the venue made their money, and the guy who fronted the money for the bar needed a thousand dollars back, I and an old friend of Cory and Leslie counted out 12,000 dollars cash. I handed it to Leslie.

At some point an active vocal member of the community started posting that she was "Really concerned where the money was going", I was one of the people to rally for Cory and Lesie saying, "Don't worry about it, it's in good hands". I spent a good amount of time getting people to believe that Cory and Leslie would do the right thing. It will all work out. When a year or two passed and very little was being done for the community as a whole, the cry for where the profits went grew louder. I started asking. I started not getting answers. All of a sudden blame was being placed on accountants and lawyers who didn't do what they were supposed to.
The bank hadn't been able to mail the SEAL statements because they had the apartment number wrong in the address.

Explanations of where proceeds from events have gone have ranged from:
Cash is hard to keep track of
No records were kept the night of the event
the volunteer accountant lost all the receipts
the volunteer lawyers didn't do their job
There were lots of hidden costs that came up

and a few more.

It has been said that the finances from this event have been known to New Yorkers for some time. I am a pretty active member of the community, and I've only seen numbers from one Decompression at a last minute meeting. It was so last minute and posted at the end of some long missive, that only 5 people realized it was happening and had the time to attend. Two pieces of paper were presented with 4 point type that was hard to read it included a lot of miscellaneous expenses. More copies weren't available because "The copy machine was broken".

In short, lots of money went in, very little came out and lots of excuses and "I've made mistakes" have been levelled and nothing has been resolved.

I have to send this now, if at a later time, anyone wants more information, email me. I will go into greater depth. I will run the names of whomever asks for more information by Cory before I send it out. There is no need for this to get even bigger AGAIN and especially to anyone who has no need of getting involved.

You see, though this is a tiring subject and it has needlessly wasted lots of many people's time which could have otherwise been used productively, Cory, Leslie, Amy, Zeke, myself and the people who are ACTUALLY involved in this are New Yorkers. We do everything better than anyone. We fuck up bigger, we complain louder, we have much thicker skins, and if there is a need to take care of a problem between us, we'll do it ourselves, thank you very much.

If you care to do the sleuthing yourself, you can always visit the NYC Bman list archive and see all the questions that went in, and the answers that didn't come out, contrary to some of the statements made in this thread.

I dream of waking up and realizing that wasting this much time was a nightmare and I'll get all the time back. Sadly, I won't.

Splinter
splinter at rangers . org

[stuart]

I think, after all of this, Amy deserves an apology.

[stuart]

just so you knew yorkers know, I have street cred. I was born in flower 5th ave hospital. Lived on clinton street back when it was the heroin capital of NYC and called all you folks out in brooklyn B&T.

[GlowScreen]

I think, after all of this, Amy deserves an apology.

THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH FOR SAYING THAT.

I have been treated like crap for telling the truth. At this point quite a few people from NYC have backed me up on my original statement. I doubt that Chicken, Jim, or anyone else who attacked me will have the grace to apologize.

amy

[stuart]

no worries,

judging from the post from Mark Harder you asked a legitimate question. All the evidence in Lady Merv's defence, at least in this thread, is nothing but emotional conjecture no matter how correct and heartfelt and in no way addresses the issue. Certainly the shameful personal attacks levied against you in no way helped the matter either.

[geekster]

Wow, that post from Mark is certainly food for thought. Certainly made me look at things a little differently. Possibly the difference that might be made in this instance is that there is a council and Cory would be only one person of many on it. Also most of the decisions are going to be (it is my understanding anyway) by the community and not by any one individual.

So the picture that is starting to form in my mind is of a very enthusiastic person with drive, vision and a certain amount of charisma who possibly sometimes gets bogged down with details and loose ends but probably not intentionally so.

As I mentioned earlier, this isn't going to be a one-person show and I would expect that someone would be chosen for the roles of secretary and treasurer so the details might be made more managable that way rather than one person or a few person having to wear many hats. Different people are good at different things. Few are good at everything.

If what you way is true, Mark, and I have no reason at all to doubt you, it would appear that maybe Cory might be guilty of letting herself get a little overwhelmed at times. I still don't see any evidence of INTENTIONAL deception for personal gain and nobody else from your community stepped up for the job so ... I guess my feeling is I will still vote for her but try to voice my concern that work get divvied up enough so that any one person doesn't get overwhelmed or have a family emergency or something and possibly cause the whole thing to fall over. These are some pretty smart people, though, and I think they can figure that out.

[beatdizzy]

OK

1. Lets not demonize ANYONE - whats the point of ART if we can't fucking get along with each other to enjoy dancing around together as it burns?
2. Nice to see that NY local GOSSIP is now nationwide.

WHAT DO WE WANT MOVING FUCKING FORWARD?

[sleepy]

Thank you Stuart and Geekster,

So totally helpful and healing your comments are. All of a sudden I feel like I'm at the Integratron bathed in warm hippie like peace thoughts. I love this kind of stuff. If you give good, you get good back. Mmmmmmm

I better shut up before they throw me out of Madagascar.

Good luck all. Now just exactly who has that 225 thousand dollars laying around so we can get some ass kicking art done?

[geekster]

I am having a really hard time choosing between you guys and Thunderdome/Deathguild. You both have advantages and it is almost a shame that you both can't be elected but there is only one curator spot
I wish they had done with the Curator position what they did with the art coincil, make local and national seats. Fuckity fuck fuck, Curator is the one seat that is really making this a hard vote for me.

[natthebat]

OH MY GOD! I'm so glad I missed that conversation!

I'm having trouble deciding who to vote for, for the guest curator position also. Fuckity fuck fuck indeed!

Thanks for the support in the begining of the thread, Geekster. You do an important service by connecting the e-playa to the BORG2. I'm wrapped up in the election right now. I'm tring to proove to myself and everyone else that I should be on the BORG2 Art Council or the Council of Nine as Harriet called it. I have much to learn.

I see so much negativity and I'm glad I was not in the cross fire. I could have easily been consumed by this discussion. Now the ashes seem to be setteling and I think I will go bact to tribe and focus on my campaign. Ouch! the hurt feelings and all that. I've spent every spare hour I have working on the BORG2 since the begining of the petition. Mostly, all I can do is describe what I see. Here, I will keep my mouth shut. What I see here can die now. It's done. I'm leaving so don't try to talk to me. If you need me I'll be at

http://borg2.tribe.net/

Peace be with you.


and fuck you too
Nat the Bat

[Bob]

No problem here -- never planned on voting on BORG2, much less BORGNYNE.

But the sooner the admin blows this libelous thread to smithereens the better.