Borg2 - East Coast Opinions

[geekster]

Holy Guano, Batgirl .... these people here are askeert of BORG2 or somethin. All they do is say "it will never work because you don't have enough pivot grease". I am tired of hearing why it won't work and why people aren't going to play. Maybe they are jealous of people having fun and doing cool shit, I dunno.

I mean JEEZ ... we even went BOWLING! How much more fun can a person HAVE in one lifetime anyway? There was upside down spanking and EVERYTHING. It made me feel like snuggling or something. A totally corrupting experiance.

Ya got my vote Natalie just because you are workin hard and makin people smile while doing it.

[zzberlin]

This discussion makes me realize how easy it must be to mess financial things up
if you aren't extremely rigorous from the GET GO, because any money left in limbo may
fuck things up royally later.


It makes me think that if I end up part of the art council, someone is going to have to be
sweating the minute details of the money very early on. And I'm not sure I want it to be me.
My personal finances manage to be in a limbo state more days than not : )

harriet

[zzberlin]

ps. am not trying to make light of the allegations.

Just as someone who is not privy to the inner workings of bmorg, nor to the inner-workings
of NYC happenings, it seems like what happened here is that money was not as scrupulously
accounted for as was required for the situation.

And I personally could be totally guilty of that, because i hate money.

So what to do? You have a bunch of artist-types who hate money doling it out.
I guess you just have to keep tedious track of every single fucking penny. Ugh. how boring... but necessary.

Hardly seems worth all the effort. Why not just commit suicide and get it over with early?

[geekster]

Yeah, some people are really anal about money. When they give some to someone else they need to know where every penny went. Others simply look at the results and figure out if they think it was worth it or not. Some people are really good about accounting for every little detail and stay right on top of it at all times. Good, the world needs people like that. Other people don't spend as much of their energy on those kinds of details and don't dwell on them as long as things are getting done. Those people probably spend more of their energy on creative or other abstract thought. Good, the world needs people like that too.

Just because good records weren't kept and there was no real accounting doesn't automatically mean that people are being robbed. In many cases it just means that there is a community of individuals working together that for the most part trust each other and so they aren't worrying about every single register receipt and are probably quite surprised and insulted when someone questions it.

So fine, BORG2 should get the most anal retentive accounting person it can find that wants to volunteer to keep the books straight and let them do it if it means a lot to them to satisfy the people out there that are scared to death that a penny of their donated money might be misspent or unaccounted for. I hope it isn't all that important to satisfy that portion of the community. People like that tend to cause everyone a whole shipload of work that produces NOTHING. No accounting sheet was ever burned at burningman as art ... hmm, there's an idea.

For me personally, I really don't give a crap. I am the kind that tends to ignore little details like that anyway. I would look at actual OUTPUT from the project ... what is it DOING and worry more about that than I would about accounting for every penny. But that's just me.

Oh, I know. There should be a heading called "Larry Harvey Bribe Money" and any unaccounted for funds could get tossed into that bin. At least it would be accounted for.

[MBRC]

all anyone's doing now is making the 'quiet people' - and us loudmouths - lose all respect for ya'll.

I am not sure which group I fall into but the outcome has been predicted accurately regardless.

ive been involved in discussions such as this on the BMNYC list for years now, and this is what i have to say:

regardless of who is right or wrong, those who treat amy with disrespect owe her an apology.

i leave it up to the individual to decide if youve disrespected her or not. i wont, personally, know the difference unless youre all showy about it on this thread.

ive read what i consider to be all kinds of disrespect to amy here, yet i dont get that from her, so even if her process was a bit faulty to some - her intent was not malicious. yet she has not been met with the on the same level. thats naughty!

i would like to think that the people who matter, can see through the verbal diarrhea that has been spewed here. is that the case? i hope so. i am off to go drink with post-teen punk rock/goth internet porn stars. i cant debate this right now. but you all, have a good night!

::s
ps so i LIKE to post while drunk, is that a problem?

[Sensei]

And that, boys and girls, is why she's Miss Black Rock City.

Damn, I love that woman!

[Chicken John]

Well I for one am not against apologizing. I do it all the time. But the only thing I did was was point out that amy accused Cory of stealing. I said nothing mean about her nor did I imply that she didn't have the right to do that. I just made sure that she understood that there are consequences for your actions and we are all watching. We don't tolerate accusations of this nature. amy has been splitting hairs for a while and we have been patient, but when presented with an opportunity to distance myself from someone who is going to injure the sucsess of something that so many people are pouring so much energy int to I take it.

The only insult I have made against amy is to not capitalize her name. And for that I am very, very sorry.

Remember that Amy was attempting to be a go between ambassador between the NY people and Borg2. Jim and I are not enthousiastic with that plan and made it very clear. Not that we need one, the only person that was saying they were confused about anything was Amy. Beleive it or not there are people who are so highly principiled that they would not and could not post to this message board whilst at a job that they have promised to give their time and attention to in exchance for money. Just because Amy is not one of those people doesn't mean that she isn't principled. And it seems that she has no problem speaking for herself. So although it is touching that a few people are asking for apologies it seems relevent to me to ask first that Amy apologize to Cory, right? She has stated that she regrets starting this shit-storm, so shouldn't she be the one to be apologizing? I'd be happy to follow her monkly example...

[GlowScreen]

Cory - I am sorry. If at anytime you would like to e-mail me or talk in private, then please do so.

Chicken - I spell my name with a small "a" all the time. Look at my previous posts. I do this to remind myself to be humble. Artists can be such arrogant creatures. Perhaps you should try it, or you could be chick instead of Chicken when you wanted to display some humility.

Yes, I write personal e-mail on the timeclock of corporate America. Actually, I've committed much greater sins than that. You're the one splitting hairs. Asking about $12,000 is not splitting hairs.

You resent that I tried to facilitate communication between NYC and Borg2. I stepped in where I saw a need. That's the kind of person that I am, and that's the kind of person who should be involved in a project like Borg2.

*************************************************************

And now it's time for a story...

So now the Emperor walked under his high canopy in the midst of the procession, through the streets of his capital; and all the people standing by, and those at the windows, cried out, “Oh! How beautiful are our Emperor's new clothes!

“But the Emperor has nothing at all on!” said a little child.

“Listen to the voice of innocence!” exclaimed his father; and what the child had said was whispered from one to another.

“But he has nothing at all on!” at last cried out all the people. The Emperor was vexed, for he knew that the people were right; but he thought the procession must go on now! And the lords of the bedchamber took greater pains than ever, to appear holding up a train, although, in reality, there was no train to hold.

[MBRC]

chicken john! thanks for the synopsis. but ive read the whole thread, and ive been around for a while. ive formed my own opinions, no need to re-hash the conversation. my opinion of the treatment of amy is relatively independent of my support of cory; im usually considered a proponent of hers. if you feel you dont owe an amy apology, then ok. maybe you dont. but dont be a twat, chicken john. thats naughty. if you continue this naughty behavior i will visit you bar the next time i am home and demand a free beverage!

sensei- one of em smooched me and talked about PALINDROMES.

::drunken redheaded slut #4

[TheNetworkGirl]

In regards to the East coast and the BORG2 I stated this in the debate Hive:

"I imagine that LadyMerve should be responsible for doing everything the West coast council is doing ALL BY HERSELF - no, I actually I think it would be stellar for her to hook up with the 'The Madagascar Institute' and Peter to populate the East coast with the BORG2 message and host at least one of their own East coast fundraisers. Between the West and the East we will have them all trapped in the middle."

I think the East coast should do what they do best, their own thing the way they want to! But with shared collboration between the East and West under the BORG2 concept of bringing more Art to Burning Man -- how can we go wrong.

I can't say the BORG2 will earn $250,000 on their own it is going to require a International effort and EVERYONE CAN HELP! The Art Council / Curator bit is not the solution-- it was just a step. What happens from here is the peoples choice. Jim and Chicken are stepping down shortly.

I cannot promise that the BORG2 will be able to fund every worthy project BUT I will promise you three things right now!

#1 Everyone will be recognized for his or her work! You will be celebrated for getting your art to the Playa especially those who are relentless and will do it with or without funding …Everyone who volunteers will be recognized regardless if you are a council member or not. Everyone is a part of this movement.

#2 I can guarantee you I/we can find you ways to save money in the process. Through pooling resources, having people volunteer their time and efforts in setting up building, whatever. You will no longer be some random artists begging for help from Burning Man. You will be a part of a family of like-minded individuals who appreciate you.

#3 I will not waste your time. I am clear and precise and have been dubbed over time not only TheNetworkGirl but also the Practical Princess (don ’t let the princess part throw you, I will role my sleeves up and get dirty and I always wished I was a boy –I like playing rough).


From my Q & A in regards to the Burning Man:

Q. I heard you guys where just a bunch of angry artists who want money and are anti-Burning Man?

A. -The BORG2 has matured -The BORG2 is inclusive of everyone who supports the art mandate -The BORG2 is very positive in its efforts to 'give' to the Burning Man community


VOTING UPDATE!!! Must Pre-Register by Midnight Sunday, TONIGHT!!

Go To -->
http://saucer.spaceship.com/mailman/listinfo/bep
Enter your email address.
Your email address will be entered into an election database. Only people who have pre-registered will be able to vote. DO IT NOW!

BORG2 Democratic art-making at its best!
Vote Jan. 18th - grab a beer and celebrate Jan. 19th

You do not have to be from the Bay Area or even go to Burning Man to be a part of this. Your vote is just another way to say that you care for Art and want more of it. This is only the beginning for the BORG2.

[Chicken John]

Well Amy, my left hand is partially paralyzed and for some reason things with 'a' in them are the hardest. So I ofen don't capitalize 'a''s or 'q''s as a result. I need no more humility than simply being called 'chicken' each and every day of my life. Keeps me in as much check as I can....

So if I have made you feel uncomfortable or if my defensive stance was out of line or even jsut too pointed I'm sorry.

We should all be nicer to each other, no?

[Clay Taurus]

So although it is touching that a few people are asking for apologies it seems relevent to me to ask first that Amy apologize to Cory, right? She has stated that she regrets starting this shit-storm, so shouldn't she be the one to be apologizing? I'd be happy to follow her monkly example...

Why in the world should Amy apologize for asking a simple question - one that people in NYC have been asking for several years - and not gotten answers to? To this day, Cory has not apologized for what she did, has not fixed her mess, continues to lie and still refuses to answer simple questions that have been posed to her - note Beckypartys questions that have still not been answerd and those are the simple ones. The idiotic bit of revionist history she wrote was practically ripped out of the Bush and the WMD's in Iraq spin book. Give me a fucking break - for over 2 years people been asking for answers, so NOW when she's up for election - which she'd lose in NYC - she writes something and blames it all on others. Karl Rove 101.

If anything, Cory owes the entire NYC community a huge apology for the big fucking mess she's made and refuses to clean up, leaving that mess to the rest of the ny'ers to make do with as best they can. Let her clean up the mess she created in NYC before she moves on to other things. She has never taken responsibility for what she did and instead blames everyone around her - classic Cory. Just like her avoiding this thread since her first post - classic Cory. Keep your mouth shut, say nothing and deny it all. If that don't work, smile, play dumb, then lie, lie, lie.

Let me pose this question to all of Cory's supporters on the West coast, those who have no fucking clue as to what has been happening in NYC except for what Cory has told you: if all Cory did was 'make a few mistakes' why is it that not 1 person that formerly sat on the SEAL board supports her any longer? The people that were closest to her and the money. Ask yourself - why are the most prominent 'doers' in the NYC community so steadfast against her and continuing to ask the same questions over and over. These are the same doers that do things all the time without causing a ruckus and are considered pillers of our community. Why is it that the regional committee here doesn't want to work with her? Why is it that, for the most part she's a pariah at social functions (which she never attends) and only newbies rabidly supported her this year because the newbies she bilked in 2003 don't? How can so many active, prominent people be so wrong? How can you fully support someone who, by some accounts, has lost upwards of $35,000. Her answer of "oops, we made a mistake - we didn't know how to handle money" doesn't jibe - her husband Leslie claims to have been an investment banker at one time and runs his own business. How does an investment banker not know how to handle a small amount of cash, know what appropriate expenses are or know how to build expense reports?

You people in CA don't have a clear picture as to what actually happened in NYC. Hell, I haven't even been around that long, but even I know there is more to the story than what she's telling you by just reading our list and asking a few questions. You've never asked a question of those who might know. The only thing you know is what you have been bottle fed by Cory. Ask for proof and not just her platitudes and you will find there is none. She answered questions? Where. Certainly not in public where they were asked - the list archive is freely available and there are no answers found. She sent them to those who asked - prove it. Those with questions have never received answers although she claims to have done so. What the fuck - pull your heads out of your asses and actually look at the shitstorm she has kicked up and ask yourself - is there a real problem here that maybe she has been trying to hide? It's time to ask the hard questions - what does Cory have to lose if the truth comes out? What do her protractors gain? Do you REALLY want someone involved in your experiement that has such a questionable past and shaky future?

So, Chicken John, you don't want Amy in Borg2? Good. NYC will be glad to keep her - she looks out for them and does plenty of things without causing problems. You want Cory - you can have her because NYC don't want her. She has made enough of a mess here. Next year, when she's fucked you over, come to NYC and we'll pitch in and buy you a proper drink to cry into and we'll all cry together.

With love, *yes*, with love.

[buckethead alien]

No problem here -- never planned on voting on BORG2, much less BORGNYNE.

But the sooner the admin blows this libelous thread to smithereens the better.

Absolutely. Seconded.

Admin? I think there may really be a legal issue here. Unproved allegations of illegal activity are actionable in New York State for sure. Perhaps hard to win for the plaintiff, but costly as hell to defend. That much I do know.

[MBRC]

in order to reach 35k in lost profits to the BMNYC community, a person would have to throw about 3 years worth of decoms and not pay out any expenses.

sounds like someones got an inflated view of this communitys net worth.

[elixir]

I have been around the NYC Burner community for about 1 and ½ years. Clearly I was not around for the events from which most of this controversy arose, but I can say this.

I worked extensively with Cory and the other “Goddesses” to put together Decom 2004. I also worked with her on the Voter Drive project. I did much of the legal work for both of these events. I have seen first hand, her drive, her commitment, her competence and her concern for the community. She is a tireless supporter of civic art and other forms of free expression. She consistently adheres to the principal of radical inclusion, even when she faces those with whom she disagrees.

She seems to me to be an excellent candidate for the position she seeks. It is worth noting that even one of her critics on this board, identifying himself as “Sleepy” aka “Splinter”, who seems to have operational experience in this community, says she would be a good organizer for Borg2. I give him credit for being able see both positive and negative.

It is understandable that people may be upset about past events. Especially if they feel they have been deprived of information that might have helped clarify matters, which seems to be a key part of the frustration here.

I’ve read Cory’s post to the SEAL website and much of the commentary on the NY list and eplaya. The type of difficulties she faced and lessons she learned are not uncommon. In fact, they are the norm.

I’ve worked with many organizations over the years in both a legal and an administrative capacity. In volunteer organizations, where people have the best intentions, they sometimes, but not always, underestimate the need to work thoroughly. This struggle can be magnified by unpredictable turnover, intervening life circumstances, heightened sensitivities, and an underlying feeling that the job need not be taken as seriously as a paid one – after all, its just for fun anyway, right. These difficulties typically are experienced by many people involved in the volunteer project, not just the figureheads. The figureheads are sometimes confronted with the blame not only for their own mistakes, but for the mistakes that took contributions from several people. In my opinion, Cory’s posted recitation of events over the past five years, although somewhat general, is entirely plausible.

Clay Taurus states that Cory is solely responsible for making a “mess” of the situation in NYC. I find that hard to believe. Usually a mess like this takes contributions from many people with varying motives. Motives such as the need for visibility, the desire to compete for recognition, the hope to make allies, fear of losing face, fear of being upstaged, the need to vent because of having been secretly hurt by something someone did or said during an event or its aftermath, etc.

In short, a “mess” is usually generated from the cauldron human desire and insecurity. This effects all of us. I do not exclude myself here. At times I have acted upon motivations that I later realized, upon reflection, did not contribute to resolving a conflict. Although there may be some legitimate questions of past events, it does not appear that everyone who’s questioning here is actually looking for answers. It does not appear that everyone screaming is looking for resolution. Some are looking to inflame. This is the formula from which you get a “mess”. As the Iroquois would say, “you cannot sit down to resolve a conflict until both sides have peace in their heart.”

Clay Taurus says that NYC does not want Cory. I can tell you from personal experience that this is not true. There are many who do.

Clay Taurus says that Becky Party’s questions have not been answered. This is not true. A valid answer was posted on the NYC list. In fact, Cory called me and asked my legal opinion as to Becky’s questions and I told her that the answers were not necessarily easy and would require review by a professional which she clearly repeated on the list.

Clay Taurus defends Amy, which is understandable. I don’t believe Amy deserved the vicious response she got. However, she did recklessly intimate Cory’s involvement in embezzlement which caries heavy legal penalties and tremendous social stigma. This was without doubt a mistake and borders on actionable Libel. But we all know that she probably had no ill-intention and the post was probably the result of lack of experience on discussing such matters. And most of us, out of tolerance, are readily willing to forget about it. I met Amy at the Decom and she seemed like a wonderful and creative person.

Clay Taurus (perhaps a play on “clitoris”) posts anonymously. This automatically throws the post into question. Without knowing who hurls a criticism, we can’t evaluate that person’s, motives, biases or basis of knowledge. How can a reader evaluate whether Clay actually has personal knowledge of any of what is posted without knowing who he or she is? So, although I respect the right to post anonymously, it leaves us with no basis from which to evaluate the myriad of “facts” so cavalierly presented. Some people are quick to make assumptions and quick to anger. Maybe Clay is one of them, maybe not.

On the whole the NYC burner community is a fabulous, fascinating, generally inclusive and wonderfully creative place. It runs fantastic events because of the contributions of many dedicated people, including Cory. But, unfortunately, there is a lot of anger, possibly even rage. Maybe it would benefit from a little infusion of tolerance and compassion. The hope for which, I think, drew many of us to Burning Man in the first place.


Gordon

[jimmason]

seems at this point everyone is with sin and blood on their hands. we should all apologize to everyone. i apologize to everyone for everything. let's now do something interesting. enough backward looking.

and let's erase this whole disaster thread of sin and treachery in all directions. there is no light here. there is no art here. there is only stupidity and backward looking. all of us look like idiots. every last one of us.

so nicole, i vote for erasing this thread.

and then i vote for erasing the entire eplaya. this thing is unnaviagable at this point. it is a morass of old thoughts and ideas and a terrible environment for creativity.

so let's wipe the slate clean. get rid of the ruts. start again.

we erased the BORG2 tribe after the first flurry and at the beginning of the election season. and the Council is likely to erase the entire thing again right after they get elected and start on the real cultivation of art. and once the art is selected, they will likely erase it again for the logisictics discussion towards the desert. and then after the desert it will likely get erased again for the after the fact discussion.

or at least that was the plan we discussed. but chicken and i are now dethroned so we don't get to decide anything anymore.

with all our extra time, we are now just going to hang out on eplaya and complain and be tedious about how terrible the BORG2 is being run, ad nauseum.

can we please get a clean slate on which to do so? nicole? you out there?

jim

[Rian Jackson]

fyi, admin normally takes a hands off approach toward the board, except in situations where the law/TOS is/are violated. that said, this may qualify.

part of the beauty of not erasing the BBS, jim, is that you have to live with what you've said to whom.

[MBRC]

sigh, lumped in with the sinners AGAIN.

there goes my reputation.

:twisted:

[MBRC]

sigh, lumped in with the sinners AGAIN.

there goes my reputation.

my stupid little evil happy face didnt work.

there.

[stuart]

all of us look like idiots

please only speak for yourself


and as far as eplaya goes, all you have done is use it as your personal soapbox. Some call that spamming. It is horriibly uncalled for, therefor, for you to call for it's purging. I think this thread ought to stand such that newcomers to this arena can see the tenor and intent of those who have posted disrespectfully on this topic.

[elixir]

I intended to separate my Reply to Clay Taurus into 2 parts to make it easier to read. This is a repost of the second part.

Clay Taurus states that Cory is solely responsible for making a “mess” of the situation in NYC. I find that hard to believe. Usually a mess like this takes contributions from many people with varying motives. Motives such as the need for visibility, the desire to compete for recognition, the hope to make allies, fear of losing face, fear of being upstaged, the need to vent because of having been secretly hurt by something someone did or said during an event or its aftermath, etc.

In short, a “mess” is usually generated from the cauldron human desire and insecurity. This effects all of us. I do not exclude myself here. At times I have acted upon motivations that I later realized, upon reflection, did not contribute to resolving a conflict. Although there may be some legitimate questions of past events, it does not appear that everyone who’s questioning here is actually looking for answers. It does not appear that everyone screaming is looking for resolution. Some are looking to inflame. This is the formula from which you get a “mess”. As the Iroquois would say, “you cannot sit down to resolve a conflict until both sides have peace in their heart.”

Clay Taurus says that NYC does not want Cory. I can tell you from personal experience that this is not true. There are many who do.

Clay Taurus says that Becky Party’s questions have not been answered. This is not true. A valid answer was posted on the NYC list. In fact, Cory called me and asked my legal opinion as to Becky’s questions and I told her that the answers were not necessarily easy and would require review by a professional which she clearly repeated on the list.

Clay Taurus defends Amy, which is understandable. I don’t believe Amy deserved the vicious response she got. However, she did recklessly intimate Cory’s involvement in embezzlement which caries heavy legal penalties and tremendous social stigma. This was without doubt a mistake and borders on actionable Libel. But we all know that she probably had no ill-intention and the post was probably the result of lack of experience on discussing such matters. And most of us, out of tolerance, are readily willing to forget about it. I met Amy at the Decom and she seemed like a wonderful and creative person.

Clay Taurus (perhaps a play on “clitoris”) posts anonymously. This automatically throws the post into question. Without knowing who hurls a criticism, we can’t evaluate that persons, motives, biases or basis of knowledge. How can a reader evaluate whether Clay actually has personal knowledge of any of what is posted without knowing who he or she is? So, although I respect the right to post anonymously, it leaves us with no basis from which to evaluate the myriad of “facts” so cavalierly presented. Some of the people are quick to make assumptions and quick to anger. Maybe Clay is one of them, maybe not.

On the whole the NYC burner community is a fabulous, fascinating, generally inclusive and wonderfully creative place. It runs fantastic events because of the contributions of many dedicated people, including Cory. But, unfortunately, there is a lot of anger, possibly even rage. Maybe it would benefit from a little infusion of tolerance and compassion. The hope for which, I think, drew many of us to Burning Man in the first place.


Gordon

[geekster]

On the whole the NYC burner community is a fabulous, fascinating, generally inclusive and wonderfully creative place. It runs fantastic events because of the contributions of many dedicated people, including Cory. But, unfortunately, there is a lot of anger, possibly even rage. Maybe it would benefit from a little infusion of tolerance and compassion.

I would say that sums up my perception of NYC culture on the whole. Why would anyone expect their burner culture to be any different? I am not saying this as a criticism or to be disrespectful, more as a statement of what I see as a fact. A group of people drawn from a particular culture and likely to manifest that culture in their actions. Nothing surprising or unexpected here. New Yorkers have managed to work within that culture and get things done for a century or two and probably will continue to do so.

Change the above quoted paragraph around a little and I think it would still ring true:

On the whole NYC is a fabulous, fascinating, generally inclusive and wonderfully creative place. It runs fantastic events because of the contributions of many dedicated people. But, unfortunately, there is a lot of anger, possibly even rage. Maybe it would benefit from a little infusion of tolerance and compassion.

See what I mean?

[Chicken John]

some loud guy wrote: "You people in CA don't have a clear picture as to what actually happened in NYC. Hell, I haven't even been around that long, but even I know there is more to the story than what she's telling you by just reading our list and asking a few questions. You've never asked a question of those who might know. The only thing you know is what you have been bottle fed by Cory."

I have never discussed this matter with Cory. I don't care about anyone else's opinion of her, I'll do my own work thank you. You are likely blowing this way out of proportion, as I have previously stated. When there are large events there are always loud, aggressive persons who want a fucking spread sheet to see where every last $5 went. I know from years of experience that there is never as much money as anyone would hope. So people think since the kick is less then their expectation, there has been theft. I've seen it dozens and hundreds of times. The money goes. Noone sees the spread sheet demands ahead of time and keeps poor records. Then, you get a mess. No one is innocent, but no one is nearly as guilty as your active imagination would allow you to beleive. Because there was never the amount of money you thought there was. Ah, leadership. It comes with black vile hatred. I've actually come to like the hatred part, and have made that kinda my joke. So to one up you, finish my work here on Eplaya and my salutation so I don't have to wast another moment of my time (as I promised myself I wouldn't hang around here anymore but I'm just too weak) I will say that I'm going to kill all of you. Violent, bloody murder. I'm going to kill all of you.

I can't wait to kicked off this useless thing.


I'm gonna kill all of you and steal all the money.

Pile of bodies. Pile of money.

I'm free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tancorix]

Finally, a breath of fresh air. Ahhh. The truth is a wonderful thing. Not everyone's out to screw ya, not everyone's a thief, and yes the money is spent on what it's supposed to be spent on. You can't please everyone and if you try to you'll run yourself ragged. (Another sidenote: not everyone's going to be your friend or like you either...it's kind of related and something I was reminded of recently.)

As for killing us all the way i feel right now, start here. Make it quick and clean please while your knife is still sharp. It would make for an interesting epitaph...he was killed by a chicken. Not the way I wanted to go out but life is strange sometimes.

[Jonathan Moll]

Greetings all,

Wow. I just finished reading this whole thread, which I repeatedly wish would go away forever, and I am disappointed if not surprised at the reactions.

First, thank you, Amy, for starting a thread that attempted to bring clarity to the whole BORG2 issue. I found the length and volume of the posts to be daunting and was grateful that a fellow New Yorker was attempting to get us some answers. As for her second post:

I do not know the details, but the finances regarding SEAL and the decompressions is very shakey. I have heard that there are tens of thousands of dollars unaccounted for and that SEAL promised to make the accounts public, but then never did so. They also promised to pass along profit from the decom events to burner artists, but never did so. Many people here in NY hold a big grudge against her and Leslie.

I have never met Cory, but that makes me have doubts about how honorably she can represent us.

amy

[/quote]

Unfortunately, it echoes a sentiment that *does* exist in the NY community, and kudos to Amy for doing *exactly* the right thing by asking the hard question. Amy’s artistic contribution to the NY community is enormous and beyond question, as was the motivation behind her post, IMHO.

I’m stunned by the vitriolic responses, posted from individuals who are *supposed* to be all about expression and inclusion. You toxic individuals should take a long look in the mirror and figure out the disconnect between the lives you purport to lead and your posts, which seem to be a window to your truer selves. The passion behind your surmise and the quality of the assumptions notwithstanding, there are a large number of facts which you neither have nor seem inclined to look for. And lest subtlety work against me, Chicken John, I’ve never read anything as condescending, self-righteous, sanctimonious and closed-minded on a Burning Man forum as your posts. As for Jim Mason’s ardent desire to wipe this whole thread, I salute his quest for Truth. Maybe instead of burying this thread, we should seek answers; perhaps then it might finally be resolved.

So, who the hell am I? Fine.
• a.k.a. Satan
• Burner 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003. For BM 2003, I produced/built the camp for Rev. Billy and the Stop Shopping Gospel Choir -- a big-ass camp for 45 people, 40 of whom were newbies -- which was invited to BM by Larry to perform three nights on the stage at the foot of the man (ask me sometime and I’ll tell you why I agree that the Borg doesn’t spend money properly for artists and about my personal beef with Lady Bee).
• Member Freak Scouts NYC
• Member of Asylum
• Co-Founder of TheStickNYC. Lead creator of Vacation Island at Decom ’03, including providing infrastructure for re-Orient, one of the principals on "The Rabbi, The Reverend and the Renegade" event with Larry Harvey, worked on container, etc.
• Original participant in the creation of SEAL. Had responsibility for electrical infrastructure on Blast Furnace 1, Blast Furnace 2, Decom 2001 (four days with a crew bending conduit/pulling new circuits), Decom 2002 (brought a truckload of free electrical equipment -– distributed hundreds of amps of power on two floors), as well as doing the lighting for the Larry Harvey/Cooper Union event, container loadings, etc., etc. I ran for the board and, luckily, wasn’t selected.

I’ve known Cory and Leslie since 1994. I would never question their passion or devotion to the BM community. Cory is a tireless evangelist of all things BM and has spearheaded or participated in an enormous number of events that have positively effected the community. In simplest terms, she works her ass off, and I support those efforts to the extent that I donated money to her VoterDrive project.

No one questions her abilities or her leadership, so let’s not get confused about the issue at hand. The context of this thread is whether Cory is the right person for the national seat on the BORG2 council. Based on passion and energy, I would say yes, but passion and energy don’t erase a murky past and a whole host of unanswered questions. And it’s because of those unanswered questions that I couldn’t support her in a position that let her anywhere near the funds or the decision making process with regard to funds. Also, it’s important to remember that these issues have literally been around for years, that Cory can easily put this issue forever to rest, has been told this by numerous people, yet fails to do so. How does that convey the management skills needed for BORG2?

The problem is that there’s an 800lb gorilla that sits in the middle of every room -– one that Cory invited in and chained to the floor -– because Cory refuses -– yes, refuses -– to answer very basic questions about SEAL’s finances. And since I was involved in all of the SEAL events, I’m telling you that money was made.

Here’s the problem: Cory and Leslie, on behalf of SEAL, made a bunch of unilateral decisions about how funds should be used, which is one of the factors why SEAL started to unravel. For example (and there are others), following the success of Decom ’01 we underwrote the container project the amount of $2,000. Decom ’02 was always supposed to donate the same $2K to the next container. It didn’t. Cory and Leslie made that decision, claiming it was never promised (it was, the email is in the archives), yet many people donated sweat equity specifically so that the community could have cheaper shipping to BRC. This naturally created some ill will, sowed some mistrust and raised the question, where was the money spent?

Lack of communication forms the basis of the problem, misrepresentations continue it. For example, it was posted in this thread and Cory has stated that she never made a dime from her work with SEAL. While I hate to say that this is a flat out lie, I asked and got no reply to the following. Because of the enormous work of orchestrating Container ’01, everyone in SEAL agreed that the following year’s job should be a paid one -– Cory was having to spend much too much time to be asked to do it on a volunteer basis. So, while this was never settled during the year, post Container ’02 I asked Leslie during a phone conversation, did they ever come up with a number for Cory’s compensation? He said to me, “Cory was paid an amount for the container and ‘other consulting’.” Let’s hold off on the question of how “SEAL” was able to authorize payment to Cory for “consulting.” But, either Leslie lied to me or Cory did when she posted on the ex-SEAL forum that she’s “never been paid a dime.” Of course, when I specifically asked her this, off list, and suggested that such comments inflame old issues, I got no reply. When I warned her that the questions will never go away until she at least gives a *rough* answer (I don’t think anyone cares about to-the-penny accounting) about the “missing” funds, Cory replies that she’s already answered these questions and won’t be questioned further.

There are numerous questions like this, and these questions span years. Even when you get to the period where, supposedly, the accounting was completely transparent and done “professionally” (as Cory has said) -- like Decom ’03 -- you find head-scratchers like line items on the accounting that claim there was $861 spent for storage (Really? Decom rented a storage unit?) and $1,400 in phone bills. That seems like a *lot* to do a month’s worth of planning. And the explanation offered in response to direct questioning? None. If they had said, for example, that the storage space was their personal one, that it was jammed full of stuff that SEAL has used on a variety of events over the years and that it would only be fair to write it off against the event, I’d say, “you’re probably right.” But the deafening silence, the constant deflection, the finger pointing at others and the suggestion that anyone who would dare question Cory’s integrity is a hate-monger, has to end.

I don’t believe that there was malice or criminal intent involved, but whether through naiveté, stupidity or negligence, big mistakes were made. No, the bookkeeping was not handled properly, so we'll never have a to-the-penny accounting, but really, who cares about twenty or fifty or two hundred dollars? Close is fine for me. In my non-Burner life, I'm a producer, so it's pretty easy for me to assess the expenses across categories. But one question will have to be more-or-less answered, even if that answer is a "whoops", and I wrote all of this to Cory: there should be *at least* $15-18,000 in the bank from Blast Furnace 1 through Decom '02. Where is it?

I challenge anyone to show me where this question has been answered.

So long as honest questions are met with stony silence, this thread will continue to follow Cory and I'll have a difficult time supporting her in anything other than her personal art projects. And those of you with your assumptions and theories who refuse to look at the facts, try to refute anything I’ve posted -- and use facts, not wishes.

Hoping this can finally be resolved and the community reunited,

jdm

[Bob]

[Bob]

[DVD Burner]

[Clay Taurus]

Clay Taurus states that Cory is solely responsible for making a “mess” of the situation in NYC. I find that hard to believe. Usually a mess like this takes contributions from many people with varying motives. Motives such as the need for visibility, the desire to compete for recognition, the hope to make allies, fear of losing face, fear of being upstaged, the need to vent because of having been secretly hurt by something someone did or said during an event or its aftermath, etc.

Ok, not just Cory. Cory & Leslie. Questions have been asked, no answers have been received and the problem has compounded. Had the questions been answered *truthfully* when they were asked - the problem we're experiencing would not continue to rear it's ugly, putrid head. As Mr. Moll points out - this is a problem that follows Cory and Leslie wherever they go - it may be an 800lb gorilla, but it's the gorilla they carry with them. I'm glad I don't have to carry it into every room I enter.

In short, a “mess” is usually generated from the cauldron human desire and insecurity. This effects all of us. I do not exclude myself here. At times I have acted upon motivations that I later realized, upon reflection, did not contribute to resolving a conflict. Although there may be some legitimate questions of past events, it does not appear that everyone who’s questioning here is actually looking for answers. It does not appear that everyone screaming is looking for resolution. Some are looking to inflame. This is the formula from which you get a “mess”. As the Iroquois would say, “you cannot sit down to resolve a conflict until both sides have peace in their heart.”

Oh, save me the pop psychology psycho babel. No cauldron of desire and insecurity bubbling here. Lots of people have asked for answers and gotten nothing. The questions started off innocently and then spiraled ever downward into an abyss of trash. There is one solution - answers to the most direct questions asked. Hell, answers to a few questions would be a fucking start. They don't even manage that and you can't prove they have.

Clay Taurus says that NYC does not want Cory. I can tell you from personal experience that this is not true. There are many who do.

I'm sure there are. There were people who loved Mussolini & Stalin as well. Doesn't make them saints. There may be people in NYC who want them - but not the people who have actually been in the scene for any length of time and actually do things. In fact, a large percentage of those people won't do shit with them anymore - not if it involves money.

Clay Taurus says that Becky Party’s questions have not been answered. This is not true. A valid answer was posted on the NYC list. In fact, Cory called me and asked my legal opinion as to Becky’s questions and I told her that the answers were not necessarily easy and would require review by a professional which she clearly repeated on the list.

Wrong again Mr. Lawyer. One of the questions was answered. The question of who is SEAL now was never answered. Furthermore, SEAL is listed, last time I checked, as a 501c3 according to the state of NY. Now, if the state knows SEAL's status, why doesn't SEAL know it's status? Lastly, we've been told SEAL is a C corp, a 501c3, an LLC and a fan club. Which is it? A curious public wants to know.

Clay Taurus defends Amy, which is understandable. I don’t believe Amy deserved the vicious response she got. However, she did recklessly intimate Cory’s involvement in embezzlement which caries heavy legal penalties and tremendous social stigma. This was without doubt a mistake and borders on actionable Libel. But we all know that she probably had no ill-intention and the post was probably the result of lack of experience on discussing such matters. And most of us, out of tolerance, are readily willing to forget about it. I met Amy at the Decom and she seemed like a wonderful and creative person.

Bullshit. Libel: A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.

Amy did no such thing. She repeated what has been talked about on the NYC list since time began. It has never been proved wrong in any way shape or form what Cory & Leslie did with the money - since they've ignored the questions. Just because Cory says it's so - does not make it so and she holds forth not one single, solitary bit of proof to the contrary. If she, through you, is threatening libel, then bring it on. The burden of proof lies with the plaintif in the US and I'm sure we'd all *love* to see how she proves this one.

Clay Taurus (perhaps a play on “clitoris”) posts anonymously.

Give the man a gold star. Think you can find mine? I've heard otherwise. I post anonymously to speak my mind without fear of retribution that often follows those that cross the Boksors. I've been in the NY scene a long time and seen it happen. Anyone spoken to Mr. X lately?

This automatically throws the post into question. Without knowing who hurls a criticism, we can’t evaluate that persons, motives, biases or basis of knowledge. How can a reader evaluate whether Clay actually has personal knowledge of any of what is posted without knowing who he or she is? So, although I respect the right to post anonymously, it leaves us with no basis from which to evaluate the myriad of “facts” so cavalierly presented. Some of the people are quick to make assumptions and quick to anger. Maybe Clay is one of them, maybe not.

Wrong again. Anything I've posted is easy to prove. Use the list archive and search for Cory's answers to questions - they don't exist. Have her post her responses to questions from the past 2 years. Ask the former SEAL members what they know and remember. Mark Harder aka Splinter posted memories about handing over $18,000 *after* expenses. Where is it? Why would you believe Cory and not Splinter? There is not grey cloud about lying that hovers over Splinter. How did Cory lose money 3 years in a row, when Zekeman made money his first time out? Moll mentions money from earlier parties that was pure profit - where is that? Ask her where *any* of the accounting statements that she has promised to show are. When is the meeting that was supposed to happen in June going to happen? All easily verifiable amid the deafening silence following the questions. Cory claims to have answered the questions - she hasn't. Where there is one lie, there are more.

But, unfortunately, there is a lot of anger, possibly even rage. Maybe it would benefit from a little infusion of tolerance and compassion.

You're right there *is* a lot of anger and rage - ask where it comes from and I'll always point you in the same direction. Granted, sometimes it's Joe Dunphy, but he hasn't been around in a *long* time. (Boy that was an interesting time). The rest of the time - its Cory, Leslie, the money, what happened to it and why they thought they could do what they did. Maybe the NYC community would benefit from a truth and reconciliation committee. You could be their lawyer. I've heard you're cute.

Remember - sometimes a pipe is not always a pipe.

With love *yes* with love.

[Rian Jackson]

Chicken's got the eplaya addiction. Maybe he should have a consultation with CBA.

And for once, i'm really enjoying the TOS violation. I don't want Chicken getting kicked off... i want to see what happens when the eplaya destroys his mind.