The Bar

Martiansky · Post by **Martiansky** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:34 am

I have to go for now! See everyone later!

(I'll change it back)

Sandwichman · Post by **Sandwichman** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:36 am

Rian Jackson wrote:well, surely you may, sammich.
but i'm going for 'not sorrowful' today, so i think it will have to be celebratory drinking instead.

i refuse to spend today being upset about shit.

Then we shall celebrate. Drinking time it be.

Jason

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:36 am

division between "art" and "craft"

art is the skillful exectution of a creative idea in order to please or communicate

craft is skillful execution

by this reasoning all craft can be elevated to the level of art. DJing is a perfect contemporary example.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:37 am

rian, my turn for a whack

and uh, I don't need no stinking paddle

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:37 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
tonytohono wrote:nothing wrong with gettin' crafty.

What's the good word?
Yeah, i'm one of those who feel that the division between "art" and "craft" has something to do with maintaining the status of certain dead white men.

I think there is more to the the difference, Craft usually but not always has the pretence of functionality. It usually is of a more personal scale. This make craft more accessible to a larger number of common people.

The lines between art and craft do seem to be dictated by the art world. At so point when ceramics, textiles/fibers, glass, woodworking/carving, Jewry/metalworking, papermaking, and what have you is of an aesthetic quality that can't be denied it's deemed to be art. Anyone can slap some paint on a canvas and it's art ( though it might be bad art ).

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:38 am

i refuse to spend today being upset about shit

I hightly recommend the exapnsion of that practice beyond just today.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:41 am

Z, a plain coffe mug, ceramic or no, is not art. But if it is well done it is craft.

Just slapping paint on a canvas is neither craft nor art as it does not fulfill the 'skillful execution' part of the definition of either.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:43 am

Zulegoona wrote: I think there is more to the the difference, Craft usually but not always has the pretence of functionality. It usually is of a more personal scale. This make craft more accessible to a larger number of common people.

The lines between art and craft do seem to be dictated by the art world. At so point when ceramics, textiles/fibers, glass, woodworking/carving, Jewry/metalworking, papermaking, and what have you is of an aesthetic quality that can't be denied it's deemed to be art. Anyone can slap some paint on a canvas and it's art ( though it might be bad art ).

I've done glassblowing, and consider myself an artisan because I am able to make respectable reproductions of pre-existing items. I don't consider myself an artist because I haven't pushed my limits beyond there (at least not much).

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:50 am

I do think there is a real acceptance of a lot of bad craftsmanship in "art ".

If the form is expressive or unique enough and well executed, it is art, be it a cup, vase, funerary urn, table, or chair....

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:50 am

Zulegoona wrote: The lines between art and craft do seem to be dictated by the art world.

'xactly.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:53 am

I believe that my art, black and white photography, has the essential element of craftsmanship. My eye and brain and heart cause the synapses to fire and trip the shutter. Then the craftsman takes over to attempt to print what my heart saw. I am developing film from last week right now and tonight will reveal if I was successful.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:56 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
Zulegoona wrote: The lines between art and craft do seem to be dictated by the art world.
'xactly.

What about the line between craft and High Craft, as delineated by organizations like the American Craft Counsel.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:00 pm

Zulegoona wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
Zulegoona wrote: The lines between art and craft do seem to be dictated by the art world.
'xactly.
What about the line between craft and High Craft, as delineated by organizations like the American Craft Counsel.

Unfamilier with same. Just suspicious of certain deliniations.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:01 pm

If you care, here is an example of my craft:

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:03 pm

sput said

I don't consider myself an artist because I haven't pushed my limits beyond there (at least not much).

this fits well with my paradigm. You are a skilled artisan. Now, when you take that skillset and put it in a context that demands your creative imagination then you get art.

zu said

I do think there is a real acceptance of a lot of bad craftsmanship in "art ".

not if you apply my definition. Aint no upside down toilet ever going to pass muster with this cat.

he also said

If the form is expressive or unique enough and well executed, it is art, be it a cup, vase, funerary urn, table, or chair....

see my post above about the relationship between craft and art. By my definition all art is craft.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:03 pm

Should have said artisanship.

tisha2 · Post by **tisha2** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:04 pm

sputnik wrote:If you care, here is an example of my craft:

and you don't call that art????

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:06 pm

tisha2 wrote:and you don't call that art????

No I don't. I simply mimicked an existing design. There is no originality in that piece. Every step to make it was worked out years before.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:06 pm

my wife is pals with the maker of this

sure it's a vase, but it's a fucking work, original, of art.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:07 pm

I think its art. Check my link. Critique away.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:07 pm

here's a detail image

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:07 pm

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:09 pm

dammit, dont ya hate when that happens?

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:11 pm

third times the charm

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:14 pm

Ok Stuart I'll concede to your definitions, as long as the also incorporate a fuzzy edge to allow for personal taste.

Say,... didn't we have this same discussion,... like almost a year ago?

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:15 pm

No I don't. I simply mimicked an existing design. There is no originality in that piece. Every step to make it was worked out years before.

I absolutely agree. And that's no knock on you. The piece is beautiful and displays an inrecdible amount of skill on your part. But if there is no creative impetus that is your own then it is not your art.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:16 pm

To me, that vase is art. At least the first time. If he makes a hundred copies of it, then those are no better than a lithograph of an original (although there will be variation among the copies). If he makes a series of vases with intentional variety, then they might all be art, especially if there is a unifying theme.

Sandwichman · Post by **Sandwichman** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:18 pm

stuart wrote:Z, a plain coffe mug, ceramic or no, is not art. But if it is well done it is craft.

Just slapping paint on a canvas is neither craft nor art as it does not fulfill the 'skillful execution' part of the definition of either.

The analogy of music works well. there are hundreds of songs out there that are churned out so quickly to be imposed upon a willing mass. These songs are not written with the intent of feeling or soul but just to make money. The musicians have a craft that they use to make money and survive.

Then there are true music artists that create music just to create it and if someone wants to buy it then it becomes a bonus.

That is just my take on it.

Jason

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:20 pm

sputnik wrote:To me, that vase is art. At least the first time. If he makes a hundred copies of it, then those are no better than a lithograph of an original (although there will be variation among the copies). If he makes a series of vases with intentional variety, then they might all be art, especially if there is a unifying theme.

but what about traditional photography? this is exactly why I didn't last long in art school. I just decided to do it instead of getting the "paper".

tisha2 · Post by **tisha2** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:20 pm

i wish i could slap some of my art up in here for y'all, but as an actress i'm finding some technical difficulties with that....