Don't come to the Thunderdome unless you are willing to pay

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:11 pm

I camped next to a couple of 18yr old newbies that wanted more than anything to participate in the Thunderdome. To their surmise they were told there was a Required Fee of booze. Not just any booze but good booze. Now since they were under age that presented a problem which they fixed by stealing it. Yes they got to participate and I went to watch. They were in the dome for no more than two minutes. I was very sorry for them and ashamed for the Thunderdome curators. It goes against everything Burningman.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:17 pm

The gal I was with fought in the Thunderdome, she was not assessed a fee. hung out there several times, never saw anything like what you speak of.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:18 pm

Makes perfect sense to me. Who the hell wants bad booze?

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:30 pm

They came to me for the booze of which I only had cheap beer. For me mind altering substances go better with cheap beer. I originally thought they were just scamming me for free alcohol. So being the skeptic that I am I went back with them to investigate. Unfortunately they were correct. I will add that they told me latter that if they could each find a girl to join them, the fee would be waved. I guess they had better luck stealing the hooch then finding the pooch.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:31 pm

~~~~~whatever~~~~~~~

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:52 pm

[quote="helitack"]~~~~~whatever~~~~~~~[/quote]

Gosh you are clever. I can just tell you were waiting ever so long to use that most interesting and well thought out retort.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:10 pm

So what should we do? We could dress in mad max drag and throw a hissy fit. They ran a barter operation. I've run one and sometimes you ask for more or less depedning on a whole host of unquantifiable variables.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:11 pm

I think he was yawning that he was bored with yet another attempt by someone to stir up controversy. Did you write directly to the Thunderdome folks? What did they say? Is this an attempt to tarnish someone's reputation while an election is in progress for an office that TD is running for? Are you a sock?

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:16 pm

http://www.lonelysocks.co.uk/

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:17 pm

I not a fucking sock. I am not trying to stir up anything. I don't give a flying fuck about your dribble of a grade school election. And it is my understanding that Burningman does not run on the fucking barter system.

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:18 pm

I was merely trying to understand why it's okay to charge for the rides like it's fucking disneyfucking land.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:20 pm

Nightterror wrote:I not a fucking sock. I am not trying to stir up anything. I don't give a flying fuck about your dribble of a grade school election. And it is my understanding that Burningman does not run on the fucking barter system.

http://www.sydes.net/jokes/pictures/b/bullshit_bag.jpg

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:24 pm

What does a picture of your camp have to do with this topic?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:30 pm

Barter is frequently found at BM. Look at it this way ... I have something cool, you want to play with it. What are you adding to the experiance of it? If you were in some really cool getup that made your participation something really awesome, that would be one thing. If you are just walking by and think it would be really cool to interact with the thing that a lot of other people also want to interact with, what are YOU bringing to the party? What are YOU adding to the experiance?

Me picking someone out and inviting them in to play with it is one thing. They inviting themselves in and basically demanding I let them play with it is something else. If you want to invite yourself in to my show, be prepared to offer me something in return.

Just one stupid and probably inaccurate take on the issue but just some food for thought.

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:49 pm

It goes against what burningman is to me. I let people look at my art which takes months to prepare without asking for anything in exchange. I prefer to say "yes" you may or "no" you may not.

what are YOU bringing to the party? What are YOU adding to the experiance?

Why must YOU get something in return - thats what the real world is for.

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:54 pm

I do understand your point and I dont want to sound holy - I'm not.

I never have nor ever will barter at burningman but I do share. And I never go to dinner party without bringing a bottle of wine.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:11 pm

Nightterror wrote:It goes against what burningman is to me. I let people look at my art which takes months to prepare without asking for anything in exchange. I prefer to say "yes" you may or "no" you may not.

Then don't go to Thunderdome. Or build your own dome, and let people fight in it for free.

I have never heard of "paying" to fight in Thunderdome, but I have been sometimes turned away. There are times when it is closed, when they are doing private fights, women only, whatever - it is their attraction. As long as they do not violate any actual "rules" (of which there are few), they can do what they want.

Barter is a well established principal at Burningman. Bars do it all the time. Just because they charge YOU barter, and not the person next to you, doesn't mean they are singling you out - quite the opposite, they are singling the other people out for "free" admission. This is backed up by the bit about bringing a Woman along to get in free (another common tactic, as there are far more single men that want to get in). This is nothing more than an attempt to limit the number of people that want into a popular attraction...

...and static Art is different from a participatory theme camp (thanks for bringing your Art, btw). Only 2 persons can "play" in Thunderdome at once, and it takes several people to "run" thunderdome. Thousands of persons could conceivably look at a static art piece at the same time w/o issues, and no one is required to be there to hold their hands. Try running a highly popular theme camp with a particpatory element that can only handle 2 people at a time, and you might see things differently....

Remember - this is a vacation for the folks who run Thunderdome, they are doing this as a favor to you. They owe you NOTHING.

Hint: friends of the thunderdome people don't have to pay to fight...

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:32 pm

People who require payment to take part in their attraction suck ass. I was involved with a group that did this my first year and hated it. So did most of the crew, until eventually some Death Guild folk started helping out. They were much better at telling people to pay up or piss off than we were.

Expecting everything to be given to you also sucks ass. Maybe they'll have a drink or experience to share, maybe they won't. If the ride is booked up, come back later or find something else to do. If they don't have any alcohol to share, bring your own or go elsewhere. If someone gives you something, be prepared to return the favor by giving something to them or someone else.

Down with barter! Long live gift economy!

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:16 pm

My personal experience of TD--they like to p*ss people off. Just another member of the bullhorn brigade. But I've talked to people who know them and have some idea of hte amount of work they put into that thing, and well, I have to give them some points for commitment. And if TD didn't exist, it would be nessesary for BM to invent them.

It's really an unknotting your panties thing. IMHO>

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:17 pm

"Down with barter! Long live gift economy!"
I agree with Dork.What the fuck is the difference between asking for booze or asking for money?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:20 pm

3playa is looking better every day ... I am surprised at the number of babies in here. Oh, and Burning Man should be free too, right?

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:38 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:My personal experience of TD--they like to p*ss people off. Just another member of the bullhorn brigade. But I've talked to people who know them and have some idea of hte amount of work they put into that thing, and well, I have to give them some points for commitment. And if TD didn't exist, it would be nessesary for BM to invent them.

It's really an unknotting your panties thing. IMHO>

_

now there are perceived degrees of comittment. the higher the degree, the bigger the jerk alowed huh i'll~be~dammed.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:41 pm

zorro sings wrote:"Down with barter! Long live gift economy!"
I agree with Dork.What the fuck is the difference between asking for booze or asking for money?

Asking for money is specifically a no-no at Burningman, but asking for Barter is a time-honored accepted practice. That's the main difference...

I agree with you in principal (gifts rule, barter sucks). But you are never going to get barter "outlawed" at Burningman. If you want what they have, you play by their rules (or do without). And the golden rule is "supply and demand", not "do things for free". If BM ever outlawed barter, you would see fewer attractions (IMHO).

How do you propose that over-popular attractions decide who gets to use them?

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:46 pm

Q. What can I buy once I get there?
A. Burning Man is a commerce-free event.

commerce - the buying or selling of commodities or services.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:48 pm

Burning Man should be free too, right?

Yes. Unfortunately, for that to happen BLM would have to quit charging for access and BMORG would have to give up control over infrastructure. Neither are likely to happen soon. Some evils are necessary, others are just lame.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:49 pm

Like knitted footwear?

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:55 pm

hey - Just like disneyland - you pay to get in the gate and the rides are free. The lines are long but if you slip Mickey a mickey you can cut to the front of the line.

According to the IRS to barter is the same as an exchange of money and therefor can be considered a taxable event.

I'm undecided on the knitted footwear!

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:00 pm

I say it is TD's art. If they did not directly ASK YOU to play, you have no bitch. If you go walking up there basically demanding to be allowed to play, they have every right to ask you for something too. Let me get this straight ... BM should be a gift economy ... but you have the right to ask for gifts? Excuse me but if it is asked for, is it really a gift?

It is like you guys are saying that you have the right to anything that appeals to you. If they don't give you what you demand, they are stingy, if they ask for something in return it is commerce.

GROW THE FUCK UP, PLEASE.

If I *REALLY* wanted to play in TD, I think I could figure out a way ... maybe try picking a fight with one of the TD people. That might get you in there.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:01 pm

unjonharley wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:My personal experience of TD--they like to p*ss people off. Just another member of the bullhorn brigade. But I've talked to people who know them and have some idea of hte amount of work they put into that thing, and well, I have to give them some points for commitment. And if TD didn't exist, it would be nessesary for BM to invent them.

It's really an unknotting your panties thing. IMHO>
_

now there are perceived degrees of comittment. the higher the degree, the bigger the jerk alowed huh i'll~be~dammed.

Ouch. I did not mean to imply that.

Mostly, I have a certain desire that TD would just fade away, but I try not to get worked up about it, because it aint gonna happen.

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:09 pm

Geek - are you bipolar or what

you're calling names and swearing is amusing.

I do not think that I have a right to anything. I think that asking for gifts is wrong. It can't be a gift if you ask for it. If I want to play on their toys they have every right to say no - I am fine with that. If I really want something bad enough - I would learn how to get what I want.

Asking for gifts in exchange for participation - is bartering. Bartering is wrong.

Just say no - fuck off - get out - I am fine with that.