Don't come to the Thunderdome unless you are willing to pay

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:01 pm

self-confidence and full of ones self are definitly 2 diffrent things.
The way one uses words does tell on ones self sometimes. Sometimes it does'nt.
example:
lawyers are great with words. They are also self confident and full of themselvs. what exactly does that mean?

Oh man you are funny.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:02 pm

I sort of agree with you, Genius, but with one caveat. The people she should be asking about it are the Thunderdome folks, not us. No matter WHAT consensus we come to, it isn't going to amount to a pinch of owl scat. It is only what THEY think that matters about THEIR camp.

Still, I think it very interesting that this thread is brought up in the day of a very close election for BORG2 curator where Deathguild / Thunderdome is only 33 votes away from winning. (as of this moment)

GuinivereElise · Post by **GuinivereElise** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:03 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:NightTerror (like me) is not in a position to solve the 'problem' s/he percieved at the thunderdome. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem (Don't know myself, always thought the whole venture to be puerile and idiotic, and have thus avoided it altogether).

The point is, the first step to solving a problem as a community is to GET PISSED OFF and to say something about it to others. That's what night terror is doing, getting pissed off and saying something. S/he feels (I think) like I do that bartering is commerce just as much as vending. It's not a no-currency event, it commerce-free one. Bartering is primitive commerce, but commerce nonetheless.

I don't know anyone who could afford to build something on the scale of thunderdome, or even close. It's become an institution and I'm sure it would be dearly missed if ti were gone, but if those who do build it and bring it feel that we are therefore somehow obliged to them, is it really a gift? If they're expecting something in return, aren't they selling it to us? I understand that they need to limit the number of people who enter, but charging a 'fee' of booze is contrary to the spirit of a gift economy, isn't it?

GE wrote:What are YOU going to do about it? Offer solutions. Someone suggested building your own thunderdome, and not charging. sounds great! start planning!
Demanding solutions from someone not in a position to implement them is a cop-out; why not actually discuss the issue at hand? I feel it is a pertinent one: bartering has become a tradition to some people, and it has no place in a commerce-free zone. If TD is truly a gift, then they shouldn't ask for anything in return. If it is not, then it's out of place.

I appreciate your honesty.

I agree, that getting angry and saying something is the first step, but I really think that it goes beyond that.

so, this ONE person or that ONE person can't afford to put together a non-barter thunderdome. Okay. Fine. I'll accept that. So get together with 20 of your friends who feel the same way! What I see is a need to rally together, to find an alternative, and to be a DO-er.

There are always options. Personally, i don't like thunderdome, either. I steer clear. that's an option. If I felt really strongly, perhaps I would think about writing to some of the organizers, and see if it could be curbed in any way. or maybe I would see if i could find some way to make an interactive piece of the same nature and have it be more readily available to everyone. There are so many amazingly talented and intelligent people on this board (and elsewhere!), that a brainstorming session would be a completely viable and (I think) constructive way to find other solutions.

I treat these discussions the same way that I hold manager's meetings for my store: if you have a problem, that's fine. When you also have an option for how to solve it, you can go ahead and voice it. Until then, it's just bitching. I don't think that's so far fetched, really. You may disagree, of course.

I'm curious as to how you KNOW that both you and NT aren't in positions to solve the 'problem' of TD. i think that, honestly, specifically from what I've seen of YOU, RG, you could come up with some amazingly intelligent and creative alternatives to merely talking about how much you don't like their policy.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:03 pm

Hence the knitted footwear people?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:03 pm

Now why did I assume NT is a she? Interesting slip of the mind.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:06 pm

Suspicious, I agree. But I'd also wager that if one of the 'inner circle' of the thunderdome people (there always is one) heard this story, they'd be as pissed as we are. Probably some prick at the door feeling underappreciated and taking it out one some underprivileged neophyte.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:06 pm

One more thing ..

I think TD is truly a gift. If they ask you in to play, I would bet they would expect nothing in return. However if you walk up there demanding your gift, they have every right to demand theirs ... you call that barter. Whatever.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:17 pm

Flattery will get you everywhere, GE. Likewise, Fellatio. Philately, on the other hand, will get you nowhere.

There's a point there, geekster. But I think the public nature of it makes a difference. A new burner seeing something like that and saying "that looks cool, could I try it?" should not be told "only if you give us booze." I'd agree with making them earn it, or perform some sort of whimsical and herculean task to get admission. "Can I try?" doesn't sound like demanding a gift to me. But like I said, it was probably just one asshat at the door. Also, NT has a female avatar. That's probably why you made the assumption, but I've learned the hard way to second-guess that instinct.

We do about it what we can, GE: educating yahoos who demand barter. Refusing to patronize bars who barter. Gifting what we have freely, and refusing to accept anything in return from those who feel obliged to do so. Counter-balancing their asshattedness with an even greater measure of the opposite (whatever that is). If something like the experience nightterror described happened to me or someone I knew (especially a starry-eyed virgin burner) I would march down there and give the person at the gate a piece of my mind about it (in a very Rangerly way, of course). I'll wager talking to the guy at the door about it would have settled the matter right there.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:17 pm

Seem a couple years back, a long dragon was roaming the playa. A gift was demaned for a ride. The dragon was told to knock it off or park~it.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:24 pm

Ranger Genius wrote: I'll wager talking to the guy at the door about it would have settled the matter right there.

EXACTLY. Bitching about it now ... 4 months plus after the end of the event has no point. Why wasn't it brought up when NT first showed up on this forum? Why today? Hmm?

Bitching about it to a bunch or people that can neither fix the problem nor give anything but speculation about it also serves no purpose.

NT ... write to the TD people, tell us what they have to say.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:27 pm

That doesn't mean the discussion it sparked is not a beneficial one; I'm interested to see what a few others have to say about the incident, and bartering in general.

And now maybe nightterror and others will have a few points cribbed to take the issue up next time.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:32 pm

My opinion is that the use of barter depends on its context. If I am basically bumming ... I ran out of gasoline for my generator, for example, but I have plenty of beer ... I might offer to trade you a case of beer for some gas. But in the case of what a camp does ... well, yeah, I would probably either think "well fuck you guys" and leave or get real vocal about it, again depending on the circumstances.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:36 pm

For example ... if a camp has a bar out in the open right on the street, basically inviting people in and I come in and ask if I can have a drink and they ask me for a donation, I might say "well fuck you guys" and walk away.

If they have a bar that isn't obvious and invite me in and then ask for a donation, I would get pretty vocal about it.

It depends on how the "transaction" was initiated.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:46 pm

And if you were my neighbor and out of gasoline, I would offer you some, even if I had to syphon some from my tank, and refuse to accept your beer (and not just because I loathe beer). I might, however, ask you to give some of the beer to a stranger, as penance for being dumb enough 1) not to bring enough gasoline and 2) assuming that I would require something in return. Most of the people I camp with/near would probably do the same thing, in fact. You may need to join a village. I camp in Hushville, but that's to avoid generators.

Right. I've been to bars that won't give you a drink unless you have something for them...I never stay. I've also been to bars (Yes Camp comes to mind) that won't give you a drink unless you DO something to earn it..makes the bar a little more participatory, and better than just a free bar. When I go out drinking (rather rare) on the playa, I always have a couple bottles of tasty, much demanded drinks in my pockets (the Utilikilt can hold a LOT in those pockets), and give them freely to bars that don't ask for them. That's just about the only way to fight it, I think.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:48 pm

The pro side of this is of the same mentality as BORG2

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:00 pm

I guess that is just me. It would be hard for me to ask for something without offering something in return. Deferring my return offer to a stranger would be good enough, though.

I was just brought up not to expect anything. If I were to come asking, it would mean that I was in pretty dire straits because normally I would just make do. Offering something in return is a way of salvaging my self-esteem. By asking I have already admitted I was a dumbass but I would be willing to return the favor with something you might need. Either paying ahead or paying back is fine and does the self-esteem salvage function equally well.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:05 pm

On the other hand, if you noticed I was in need and made an unsolicited offer to fill that need, I would spend the next several minutes worshiping your footprints. It is the having to ask thing that gets to me.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:14 pm

So I guess you now know what you need to do in order to be worshipped: actively watch for your neighbors to be in need, and offer whatever assistance you can when you notice it. I can see your point, though. Again, it's all in the approach: offering dinner and a couple of beers consumed together would be preferable to trading gas for beer, wouldn't it? Most of my neighbors know that they can come and ask me for anything, because I go around and introduce myself to all of them as they arrive, and say "if you need anything, don't hesitate to ask. I'm right over there." If you helped your neighbor pitch their tent and erect their dome, you'd probably be pretty comfortable asking them for a few quarts of gas, if you know they have it. A community provides for its own, without need for commerce. In fact, that's how I define a community: a group of people within which there is no need for--and therefore is no-- commerce.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:21 pm

Tuborg enter, one man leaves.

I....am..
fucking....pissing....on..

myself.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:28 pm

That's one of the reasons I probably won't be going back with the camp I was with last year. During setup, for example, we were a little behind. It was hot as hell ... Sunday or Monday so we had to take it a little easy until we got our shade up and stuff. A neighboring camp came over and told us we could have some more space for our camp if we could help them move some stuff. in reality, they were saying they wanted to re-arrange their camp layout and wanted a hand with it. The result of the new configuration would be some open space toward us that they were willing to let us have if we needed it.

The Camp Master decided we didn't have time to help them. I felt so embarrassed about that refusal to help. The guy was just so strange. On one hand touting the "burning man ethic" in words but going completely against it in deeds.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:33 pm

Ranger Genius wrote: I've been to bars that won't give you a drink unless you have something for them...I never stay. I've also been to bars (Yes Camp comes to mind) that won't give you a drink unless you DO something to earn it..makes the bar a little more participatory, and better than just a free bar. When I go out drinking (rather rare) on the playa, I always have a couple bottles of tasty, much demanded drinks in my pockets (the Utilikilt can hold a LOT in those pockets), and give them freely to bars that don't ask for them. That's just about the only way to fight it, I think.

You are a good man, Ranger Genius.

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:44 pm

Like Michael Jordon - I unquit for just a moment. Of course that didn't work very well for him. Oh well.

I was unaware that TD was part of the whole BORG/BORG2 debacle.

Not that it matters - I am a man. I share, but not my Wife - I said something like that.

I was merely sharing one of my experiences and thoughts at BM last year. I go to Burningman to be free of judgement totally and completely unlike the Eplaya. And as I have firmly stated I will not be a part of any bartering - I stand firm on that point. To me, bartering is not in the true spirit of Burningman. I am not going to confront TD and fight them - how stupid was that to be said. They can exist in whatever fashion they seem fit. I will never particapate but It's not up to me to stop them or anyone who enjoys their art. I just think it is wrong. That's all.

I have and will continue to share with everyone I meet at Burningman in the spirit that a gift is only a gift if nothing is expected in return. At least at Burningman you can help someone fix a flat tire and not be worried they are going to kill you and steal your wife. That's Burningman

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:44 pm

Thank you, Dragonfly jafe. One does what one can.

GuinivereElise · Post by **GuinivereElise** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:46 pm

I appreciate the direction this discussion has turned... (despite DVD's attempt to kill (or perhaps me) it in his own little way)

And, the current discussion brings the Alien Monkey Love Nest necklaces to mind: there is some sort of participatory element required in obtaining them.

I'm interested in hearing what you think about this and the barter system. Is it okay to barter with a participatory stunt (say, singing a song, or some interesting stupid human trick)? When does it cross the line into non-acceptable barter?

Also coming to mind is the artcar that was the gazebo with the stripper pole in the middle that sparked so many debates a while ago here: for some, the price of riding was bringing two girls with you. is this bartering? is it acceptable?

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:54 pm

Our Lady of Slong?

Show your penis and they give you a beer.

That's bartering.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:56 pm

The point at which the Alien Love nest thing becomes unacceptable is when they tell someone that what they can do isn't good enough. There's a story there, but I'll leave it to its owner to tell it. As a rule, however, I like the idea of a gift that requires some form of participation to earn it. Some people think of it as a cost of the gift, but really it's more like two gifts. Just my thoughts.

As far as the stripper car, I think it's just icky. I don't know just yet where I stand on it otherwise, though I suspect I will come down on their side of it after some thought. I still think it's icky, though. I'd like to discuss it, though..help me--and others--to come to a decision on it. Anyone else?

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:57 pm

Show your penis and they give you a beer.

That's bartering.

No you idiot. That's Jiffy Lube.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:03 pm

Badger wrote:
Show your penis and they give you a beer.

That's bartering.
No you idiot. That's Jiffy Lube.

_
no no. that's all "backward"

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:06 pm

Nightterror wrote:Our Lady of Slong?

Show your penis and they give you a beer.

That's bartering.

I don't think so. For a couple of reasons: 1) giving someone an excuse to do something they might normally be too self-conscious to do is more of a gift than a fee. 2) If you're genuinely too uncomfortable to show your penis, you can generally get a beer anyway.

A few examples:

Give a stranger a foot massage, get a drink: good.

Give the bartender a blowjob, get a drink: bad.

Give the bartender a kiss, get a drink: gray area.

GuinivereElise · Post by **GuinivereElise** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:09 pm

badger: holy fuck. you crack me up.

RG: i've heard more than one "your participation isn't good enough for the ALMN necklace". that's one of the things I was wondering about.

At the same time, if I put as much hard work into them as is clearly done, i wouldn't want someone half-assing it just to get one, you know? i would want someone to show me that they WANT it. I don't know.

and what if the stunt were something like "you need to go and bring back three bottles of booze"... would that still be a stunt, or would that be barter?

fine lines, all of these things. which is why they're being discussed, I'm guessing.

The stripper car: hmmm... I lurked throughout that whole discussion, but feel like i would have to go back and reread to give any sort of intelligent synopsis... PERSONALLY, it feels icky to me. Both as a participant of the Burn, and as a girl. What? They only want YOU if they can have ME? I mean, part of it is flattering, and part of it is demeaning, I think. Of course, the discussion earlier in the year was about WHO was requiring the 2 girls, and how strictly it was enforced... things like that. So the 2-girls-to-ride thing isn't that cut-and-dried (what is, really??), in the first place.

hmph. more thinking, more thinking...