Don't come to the Thunderdome unless you are willing to pay

[bullD]

umm, sounding stupid here but, what is a kuffiyeh?

Um that yassir arafat headdress, I think.

Arafat did wear one. Kuffiyehs are almost always either red-and-white or black-and-white. The colours and patterns can signify tribe or political affiliation, but don't always. They're worn largely by Arab men across the Middle East, in several different fashions. They're excellent scarves and headdresses, too.

No one, except when they're making fun of Arafat, wears it like he did. That's just ludicrous.

Anyway, they are great protection against sun, wind, rain, and cold. They can disguise your face or cut the amount of dust that reaches your face almost to zero. They make excellent slings for ice bags. Etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Nice, thanks.

[Ron]

For example ... if a camp has a bar out in the open right on the street, basically inviting people in and I come in and ask if I can have a drink and they ask me for a donation, I might say "well fuck you guys" and walk away.

If they have a bar that isn't obvious and invite me in and then ask for a donation, I would get pretty vocal about it.

It depends on how the "transaction" was initiated.

Well, depending on how you look at it, that's just what we've done with our bar every year.

We make a cool space (huge dome, huge army tent, huge something) put a dance floor and sound system in it, stock it with lots of booze, stash some couches and make out spots around the space, and invite DJs in to spin for the folk. On the Esplanade we've right out there and have even had fun folk with sexy outfits on the street inside inviting folk in. But to get a drink? Ah, that's when it's tricky. If you were to walk in and ask for a drink you'd find a "donation," was required.

Every night has its hosts. They control the booze. To get a drink you've got to find a host and inspire them to offer you a drink. This involves everything from direct barter, to performing tricks, to simple pouring of the booze depending on the interaction you trade with the host for your drink. We've been doing it for years and have yet to see anyone have a negative reaction, but who knows? It is a barter kind of deal, just an open-ended one...

Ron

[Ron]

....
A few examples:

Give a stranger a foot massage, get a drink: good.

Give the bartender a blowjob, get a drink: bad.

Give the bartender a kiss, get a drink: gray area.

Why is the bj bad and the foot massage good? Just because it's a sexual act?

Ron

[Rian Jackson]

For example ... if a camp has a bar out in the open right on the street, basically inviting people in and I come in and ask if I can have a drink and they ask me for a donation, I might say "well fuck you guys" and walk away.

If they have a bar that isn't obvious and invite me in and then ask for a donation, I would get pretty vocal about it.

It depends on how the "transaction" was initiated.

Well, depending on how you look at it, that's just what we've done with our bar every year.

We make a cool space (huge dome, huge army tent, huge something) put a dance floor and sound system in it, stock it with lots of booze, stash some couches and make out spots around the space, and invite DJs in to spin for the folk. On the Esplanade we've right out there and have even had fun folk with sexy outfits on the street inside inviting folk in. But to get a drink? Ah, that's when it's tricky. If you were to walk in and ask for a drink you'd find a "donation," was required.

Every night has its hosts. They control the booze. To get a drink you've got to find a host and inspire them to offer you a drink. This involves everything from direct barter, to performing tricks, to simple pouring of the booze depending on the interaction you trade with the host for your drink. We've been doing it for years and have yet to see anyone have a negative reaction, but who knows? It is a barter kind of deal, just an open-ended one...

Ron

i guess I don't like the type of power dynamic this sets up. I can also see it being a lot of fun, but you put all of the power in the hands of the 'hosts' who can choose to make the petitioners grovel.

Once again, probably being oversensitive. But this sort of thing sets off immediate alarm bells for me. I'm not saying that it's wrong, or that I don't see any benefit in this tactic, just that there's a vast opening for power by controlling resources - a little too much like Reality Camp for my playa pleasure.

That said, if ya brought the booze you should be able to do what you want with it.

[MissNev]

Perhaps it was just a bad bj.

We run a bar out there every year (2004 was the 5th year for the bar). Our camp has grown over the years, and we ask only that the members of our camp chip in with some of the alcohol. We are strictly no barter, but we do have a tip bucket. I've been to several barter bars, but I don't stay very long. We have people that never leave our bar. The people that appreciate our generosity have gifted us with massages, alcohol, ice, food, etc. When I do visit a no barter establishment, I make it a point to ask the owners if they need anything. If it is something that I'm able to provide, I do so gladly.

Regarding Thunderdome, it's one of my favorite attractions. I love watching the interaction (especially when a Yahoo wants to take on a Death Guild member). In my experience, they are generous and provide a great camp...not to mention their great wardrobe.

And, I'd just like to add that I rode on the Stripper Pole Art Car (though I didn't see any strippers and didn't know it was called that). They were never rude to my friend and me, and I didn't witness anything inappropriate.

I suppose that every situation is going to be different for each person who experiences it. Sometimes the people who wander into my bar get a helpful, friendly, gratious bartender; sometimes they get the lazy woman who stayed up all night partying and they are directed to help themselves; sometimes they piss me off and they leave vowing never to return. It's my bar, my camp, and I'll run it any way I want. Of course, there are other members of the bar/camp who feel the same.

[Ranger Genius]

....
A few examples:

Give a stranger a foot massage, get a drink: good.

Give the bartender a blowjob, get a drink: bad.

Give the bartender a kiss, get a drink: gray area.

Why is the bj bad and the foot massage good? Just because it's a sexual act?

Ron

The difference is the recipient. "I'll give you a drink if you do something for me" is not the same as "I'll give you a drink if you do something for....that random guy over there."

[sparkletarte]

Is this thread the record for number of views and responses in 24-ish hours?

[regynalonglank]

i don't know man, but if you don't wanna pay you are free to walk away. i personally did not barter for anything at burningman last year. that was my choice...it was either freely given, or i wasn't interested in it. but that's just me...i still found plenty of things to do and see, my time was well "spent" and i felt like i had a great time. it's that silly free will thing raring its ugly head again...dang it, what are we going to do with you!

[bullD]

i don't know man, but if you don't wanna pay you are free to walk away.

True! very true!

it's that silly free will thing raring its ugly head again...dang it, what are we going to do with you!

how long have you lived in Sebastopol? he he he

[Ron]

i guess I don't like the type of power dynamic this sets up. I can also see it being a lot of fun, but you put all of the power in the hands of the 'hosts' who can choose to make the petitioners grovel.

Only in as much as control of booze equals power. When we got non-drinkers in the bar things get even more interesting. :)

But still, I see and agree with your point. It does create a power differential and that does have potential for abuse. Folk always have the right to walk away, and we've never used cohersion, but still the possibility for abuse exists. Nevertheless, we'll probably be doing it again this year, and didn't I read a post from you that made it sound like you ended up either bartending in our bar, or a similar one, earlier in this thread?

just that there's a vast opening for power by controlling resources - a little too much like Reality Camp for my playa pleasure.

And when you put it like that it makes me think of the rough interactions I've had with various parts of BMOrg. Food for thought, thanks for the snacking...

Ron

[QuasiPseudo]

[quote="Rian Jackson"](Which reminds me, I still need to find the owner of said caprpet and make some mixes of music).

The owner is named Soren, Ill send this eplaya link to him & let him know.

[blyslv]

. A community provides for its own, without need for commerce. In fact, that's how I define a community: a group of people within which there is no need for--and therefore is no-- commerce.

Apologies in advance, I have not read the whole thread, and coming back to this quote would be beyond me.

BARTER ROCKS! In the so called default world, most commiunities grew up around copmmerce, say around the confluence of two rivers or a cross roads. That is human nature. And human nature doesn't stop once you get inside the trash fence.

This narrow minded prejudice against barter smacks of some weird elitism. If I spend a 1000 dollars on booze, when I set up my bar I'm going to ask people to DO something. It's my art. Im fact I've done it before and I thought it was wonderful. I saw people come out of their shells, and I saw faces light up with recognition of something that had eluded them previously. And it was barter, 'cuz you didn't get a drinky poo unless you did something.

I'm not afraid to soil my dainty littly handsies with an inquiry into value. And isn't that what barter is, two people trying to figure out what the worth of something is? My vodka/cranberry/orange juice; is that worth you wearing a stunning evening gown for 15 minutes? There, an exchange of value. Anybody tries to tell me that's not the spirit of BM can go fuck yer day.

[blyslv]

A few examples:

Give a stranger a foot massage, get a drink: good.

Give the bartender a blowjob, get a drink: bad.

Give the bartender a kiss, get a drink: gray area.

This is one of the more judgmental things I've ever read on this board. If two people decide that a blowjob for a drink is what they want to do, who the fuck are you to tell them it's "bad?" You are not my arbiter of morals nor taste. Get out of my face please.

[theCryptofishist]

The best gifting experiences I ever had were with the crocodile beads before I even got to the playa.
I've given them away at parties, handed them to the homeless, dropped them in the tip cup at my cafe, given them to small children on the street.

It's different than selling
It's different than buying.
It's different than barter.

I'm sorry I don't do it that often anymore. It was possibly bringing me to a place where I had very different thoughts about ownind things, a very interesting place where few americans get to go.

You can trace stone age trade routes of beads and obsidiean and flint which indicate probable barter. There are more options.

I have no words for my actual experience--a good enough reason to resume the experiment.

[Rian Jackson]

Well, I sure as hell don't know what the 'Spirit of BM' is. We try to speak of as if there's no commerce involved in the event, whch is clearly not the case. But barter is clearly commerce, which doesn't help us be any less commercial, if that makes sense. You can accept the barter as a reality - and in other situations, i completely agree that barter rocks - or you can attempt to move away from it.

Perhaps, if spending so much money on booze forces you to set up a commercial exchange, you should find another solution other than a bar? Maybe the answer is to only bring what you are willing to give without barter?

People can bring their flasks with them out on the playa. I'd be just as happy to find gathering spaces where there are now bars - places to meet other folks, without having to worry about costs and bartering.

[Nightterror]

[quote="blyslv"]
This narrow minded prejudice against barter smacks of some weird elitism. If I spend a 1000 dollars on booze, when I set up my bar I'm going to ask people to DO something. [/quote]

Bartering is not sharing it's commerece.

Q. What can I buy once I get there?
A. Burning Man is a commerce-free event.

And can one really call spending 1000 dollars on booze with the sole intention of getting something in return "Art"

I doubt it.

[stuart]

I have not spent very much time at all at bars on the playa. I generally only find myself there if friends are doing it. I don't feel right walking up and asking for something (I am not socially assertive, actually I am generally socially phobic) and I sure as hell don't want to get involved in some game of exchange with rules that are plastic enough that proprietors can play favorites.

If the spirit of burning man is anything, it is my ability to have a grand time on the playa without barter bars and people who like to have barter bars can have a grand time as well.

BTW, y'all can come to my camp for free booze. All I ask is your company.

[blyslv]

, i completely agree that barter rocks - or you can attempt to move away from it.

Perhaps, if spending so much money on booze forces you to set up a commercial exchange, you should find another solution other than a bar? Maybe the answer is to only bring what you are willing to give without barter?

.

It's not the money! I was interested in setting up certain conditions and seeing what people did. The booze in exchange for actions was the means to achieve that. That's barter and it was fun as hell. There was only one person who couldn't be bothered and that's fine.

btw I've given plenty of mixer (usually more valuable then booze toward the end of the week) and liquor to bars. Big fucking deal.

[Nightterror]

My cooler is always open for anyone who cares to join me.

[blyslv]

Barter can also be described as creating value. That strikes me as more ... well.. creative. Gifting is fun as well. But barter can put people in places wehre they have to think, it drive them outside their comfort zone and that's where creativity thrives.

[Rian Jackson]

I guess what I'm looking for, blyslv, is another option that doesn't look like barter. i'm all for people doing crazy shit, and i understand that perhaps the monetary outlay isn't the primary reason for it. But it's hard to think that you are NOT talking about money when you begin to measure the comparative values of offerings. You see? On one hand, you say it IS the money. On the other you say that it isn't.

I wonder what someone who had built an enormous, intricate theme camp, and them spent 80% of their burn staffing it to make sure that others were gifted an incredible experience, would think in this situation. I have a hunch that your bar - since you don't strike me as a yahoo slacker and never have - probably has a lot of love and work put into it. But if I were the person who drained all my time and resources into something and then I came upon a barter bar that was slapped together - i might be a little miffed.

Alcohol seems to be one of the only things on playa that people find acceptable to 'charge' for in some way. I wonder why, when so many people do so much for the city, at greater cost than buying alcohol and setting up a bar, this is.

[stuart]

outside their comfort zone and that's where creativity thrives

I don't buy that

[Rian Jackson]

outside their comfort zone and that's where creativity thrives

I don't buy that

Is it going too far to posit that 'bartering' is your comfort zone, and that if you were to go outside of it to find another way to foster this interaction that you seek, creativity might thrive for both you and the other participants?

[bullD]

I have not spent very much time at all at bars on the playa. I generally only find myself there if friends are doing it. I don't feel right walking up and asking for something (I am not socially assertive, actually I am generally socially phobic) and I sure as hell don't want to get involved in some game of exchange with rules that are plastic enough that proprietors can play favorites.

my sentiment exactly. thank you.

BTW, y'all can come to my camp for free booze. All I ask is your company.

did mean to do that, sidetracked for days. will do though.


for me, the thought of barter does not enter my mind. I bring what I know is going to keep me physically happy and then some. In other words, I take care of myself. However, I have fed many random strangers walking by, usually breakfast, at my camp. Simple hellos turn into 'have a seat, I have a plate right here for you.' The smiles and usually good conversation are plenty for me to get in return. I did have this guy play his very elaborate conga drums for my camp because we fed he and his gal. It lasted for a while and it gathered quite a crowd. I fucking love shit like that.

[Nightterror]

But barter can put people in places wehre they have to think, it drive them outside their comfort zone and that's where creativity thrives.

Or it could just make them really - well - uncomfortable.

[bullD]

barter was a word that basically never came up the years that I did "Antarctica" with my camp-mates. If it did come up in conversation it was usually used like: "yeah, you could go to that camp and barter/trade for this-n-that." Which was about as far as the conversation usually got and, funny enough, none of us ended up going to said camp where you could barter/trade for this-n-that. When we shut down "Antarctica" for the night we all got our swerve on and went out to see art and be with the people, not sit in a bar.

random acts of giving whatever are what I enjoy the most. for instance, if a couple of people were in my pedicab and we were off to some destination, more often than not random people would walk up to me on the pedicab and give me a hug or trinket or whatever because I was giving somebody thay did not know a ride. That's fuckiing cool...

[MissNev]

I'll also extend the invitation to visit our stricly non barter bar The Liver's End. Don't know yet where we'll be, but we are in the playa directory.

[sparkletarte]

I haven't had an interaction where someone told me I had to give them something to get something (except one but that was 'different').

To me bartering is still an exhange of something of a value, money or whatever else it might be. It's still a form of commerce.

However, I'm happy to share with anyone, I just don't like to be forced to do it. I'm happy to bring something to a bar when I have been getting drinks from them, but because I want to, not because I have to. I think that is the difference. When someone tells you that you can't participate unless you give them something, that has turned into a commerce exchange.

[stuart]

Is it going too far to posit that 'bartering' is your comfort zone...

I took issue with the blanket statement because I do not feel that human beings need to be under stress in order to be creative or to have that creativity flourish.

it would not be going to far to posit that interacting with strangers is where my comort boundaries lie.

[bullD]

ohhh, at SF decomprssion, I brought a good bottle of wine to the Spikes Vampire Bar folks (although, I suppose wine was the last thing they wanted to see) as thanks because they were fucking on it out on the playa. That was the only bar I went to in 04'. It's all about appreciation...