Classical Music Lovers

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:06 pm

If I recall correctly there are portions of the piece that were entirely written by mozart. If anything, sussmeyer just did some corrections on part transpositions. Most of what was not completed by Mozart at the very least had elaborate sketches. Some of it only needing completion of the orchestration.

yeah, a theme is not much more than a refined doodle. The mastery is in the development and then subsequent orchestration. This is why I think Danny Elfman is a hack film composer. He does not do much development and last I heard has never done any of his own film orchestration.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:17 pm

To be more precise, his student Süßmayer (pronounced "soos-my-er") declared that he was wholly responsible for the "Sanctus", "Benedictus", and "Agnus Dei", but no one has been able to verify his statement. However, we do know that Süßmayer made use of Mozart's own music in the "Lux aeterna" and "Cum sanctis tuis" and that he orchestrated everything from the "Dies irae" to the "Hostias".

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:24 pm

If I recall correctly

therein lies the rub

tonytohono · Post by **tonytohono** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:30 pm

bullD wrote:
Make everybody happy, even the folks under 40 (in reference to your referencing their IQ's), and get , " Metallica - S & M with the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra," conducted by composer Michael Kamen and of course, Metallica.

Sorry BullD - I couldn't be happier if someone roasted those fucks on a spit.

bullD · Post by **bullD** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:36 pm

tonytohono wrote:
bullD wrote:
Make everybody happy, even the folks under 40 (in reference to your referencing their IQ's), and get , " Metallica - S & M with the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra," conducted by composer Michael Kamen and of course, Metallica.
Sorry BullD - I couldn't be happier if someone roasted those fucks on a spit.

I agree, they have been roasted for some time now. My point was not meant to plug Metallica...

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:39 pm

but sometimes i really enjoy metallica....

stuart, i don't remember jack. the only reason that music history is important for me is that the time period informs how the piece was written and hence, should i want to be historically accurate, how it is played.

otherwise, fuck it, eh?

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:54 pm

I found it really fascinating. My professor related what was going on in the world geopolitically to what was happening in music and other arts. The interconnections were jaw droppingly fascinating. The fact that an architectural feature in a cathedral sparked the counterpoint revolution blows my mind.

I also found it hilarious when my fussy professor would beat down the musical theatre bimbos when they would refer to 'Amadeus' to inform their opinions on music history.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:57 pm

holy shit, i never knew any of that kind of stuff.
maybe i'll have to crack the books mouldering on my bookshelf.

actually, did you use any textx that drew such parallels? if so, do you remember the names?

tonytohono · Post by **tonytohono** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:58 pm

stuart wrote:This is why I think Danny Elfman is a hack film composer.

Ouch ouch ouch...

Ask me and I will tell you Elfman is a genius.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:09 pm

stuart wrote:I found it really fascinating. My professor related what was going on in the world geopolitically to what was happening in music and other arts. The interconnections were jaw droppingly fascinating. The fact that an architectural feature in a cathedral sparked the counterpoint revolution blows my mind.

Actually, Stuart, last night I was thinking about some of those sorts of things re art and our discussion yesterday on same. Not that I have much coherent to say about it now. . .

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:10 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:holy shit, i never knew any of that kind of stuff.
maybe i'll have to crack the books mouldering on my bookshelf.
actually, did you use any textx that drew such parallels? if so, do you remember the names?

Interconnectedness is everything... it blows my mind sometimes... I did a study of the 14th Century and how it defined the world we live in today, along with the paralells... amazing. Closer to our time frame, the stuff that Keysey did in the Bay Area in the Sixties has changed a lot of how we look at everything. Not that it all can be systematically traced back to him, but like a spreading fractal, it influences a lot of what we listen to, read, wear, live in, and work for today.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:14 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:holy shit, i never knew any of that kind of stuff.
maybe i'll have to crack the books mouldering on my bookshelf.

actually, did you use any textx that drew such parallels? if so, do you remember the names?

I do remember picking up on the gregorian chants being a product of the aucoustical property of cathedrals--and I don't have Stuart's erudiction on the subject. Possibly tv (ya know, pbs--not real tv) and then hanging out with m.r. who may have likened it to how jazz in the 50s was a function of the physics of the instruments. So, I think the general idea is out there as a meme that even fish can pick up.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:25 pm

is Elfman a genius or is his arranger/orchestrator? If all one knows of Elfman as a film composer is what one hears on a sountrack album then one can't really say

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:26 pm

re:texts

my intructor was Professor Walter Reinhold

he developed this program called 'Culture'

here is a link...

http://www.culturalresources.com/CRI.html#search

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:41 pm

stuart wrote:is Elfman a genius or is his arranger/orchestrator? If all one knows of Elfman as a film composer is what one hears on a sountrack album then one can't really say

All I know is that when Sinatra died and they played all his songs, I realized a) how many of them I knew from elsewhere and b) how much bettter I liked the other (non-Sinatra) arrangements.

(Note--I know that Sinatra didn't do his own arrangements or all his own arrangements, but his interpratations are often the famous ones.)

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:44 pm

I don't think Sinatra wrote much if anything. He was strictly a performer.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:53 pm

I don't have much regard for the man or his work, but it's my understanding that he worked with the arrangers. Certainly, he had enough pull to choose what kind of style he wanted to sing in and who he wanted to work with.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:50 pm

I don't know where you get the info that Elfman doesn't do his own orchestration, because it's wrong.

The real film composer hack is John Williams. Blatant plagiarist...but of course most classical music is public domain, so it's not actually. It's an 'homage' when he cribs a few pages straight out of 'Also Sprach Zarathustra" for Close Encounters...or from Holst for Star Wars.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:55 pm

I should say, he doesn't do it exclusively, but inclusively.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:57 pm

I don't know where you get the info that Elfman doesn't do his own orchestration

from Danny Elfman

bullD · Post by **bullD** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:02 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:but sometimes i really enjoy metallica....

wrong thread for this discussion I suppose but yes, listening to the oldies can still have an effect, just like listening to oldies from all different genre, which is probably what you are saying. However, anything after the 80's from these guys, imo, sucks ass.

original point: no, snobby, not all people that listen to their music have IQ's below 40...

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:08 pm

not all people that listen to their music have IQ's below 40...

I wasn't implying that. I just meant these specific people. The album I'm referring to was actually the one in which a symphony debases itself by being relegated to a few accent notes and ornamental trills. Just appauling. Aside:

One of the guys I worked with there only knew one adjective/adverb: fuck. I never heard him complete a sentence without using it. Fragments, monosyllabic responses, and grunts, yes. But never a complete sentence without the word fuck. Really quite amazing.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:23 pm

Hey, Quasi, maybe I should join your camp...'cause I'm doing classical sets, too

Some inspirations:
- A dramatic presentation of "Carnavale des Animaux" with recitations of the Ogden Nash verses that accompany it...
- Mythodea, of course,
- An Orientale set, with all the various Turkish-inspired pieces,
- Saint-Saëns' Organ Concerto, for its bigness, richness and humour,
- A Dies Irae set,
- For when we get threatened with a storm, a Storms-themed set, for example "La Tempesta di Mare," the Summer and Winter storm allegros from the Four Seasons, Royal Hunt and Storm, the Storm sequence from Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony, also "Calm At Sea" and "Prosperous Voyage," either Beethoven or Mendelssohn,
- Bach would be exceedingly thematic since some psychologists claim that listening to Baroque, and especially Bach, optimizes your brain and raises your IQ; maybe some nice easy-going Bach first thing in the morning to gently wake the camp,

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:14 am

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Mendelssohn....his "Midsummer Night's Dream" is an old favorite.
I'm also surprised at how many people STILL think Wagner isn't PC....He was writing filmscores before the medium existed!
And what about Wendy Carlos?

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:15 am

Ranger Genius wrote:I don't know where you get the info that Elfman doesn't do his own orchestration, because it's wrong.

The real film composer hack is John Williams. Blatant plagiarist...but of course most classical music is public domain, so it's not actually. It's an 'homage' when he cribs a few pages straight out of 'Also Sprach Zarathustra" for Close Encounters...or from Holst for Star Wars.

all the greats were involved in 'sampling'. it was common practice - and accepted - for hundreds of years.

IIRC (if i recall correctly, the new theme of this thread)

QuasiPseudo · Post by **QuasiPseudo** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:00 am

Diane - awesome suggestions from you & all! Perhaps some duelling classical DJ action would be in order...

Been toying with mixing some classics into a beat pattern for danceability & fire spinning; not sure how well this will work, I havent heard it done before; but there are a lot of classics that follow a pretty consistent beat...

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:02 am

I'm not talking a few lines, a fleeting reference to a theme..I mean obviously copying the melody, probably assuming (with good reason) that a person who buys the soundtrack to a Lucas or Spielberg film doesn't know shit about classical music, and won't notice that major themes from the star wars suite are blatant copies of Holst's The Planets. Especially some of the Empire themes which come from Mars, the Bringer of War.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:04 am

Quasi: for a consistent, fairly fast tempo, look to the Baroques..Mozart, Vivaldi, et al. I actually like to spin to the aforementioned Mars movement. Very envigorating little ditty.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:08 am

i follow ya.

IIRC, it was done with a very different intention 'back in the day'. i think the listener was meant to recognise the original pieces.

kind of like an inside joke, only significantly more high brow.

That's pretty sad that they'd be doing that in things like Star Wars. And although i know very little about the history of copywriting, Holst, like Britten, is a very modern composer.

Sometimes i wonder how much of other people's work makes it into my own by way of the subconscious. It's something i worry about obsessively when I'm writing, wondering if I've inadvertently plagiarized.

GuinivereElise · Post by **GuinivereElise** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:13 am

Rian Jackson wrote:i follow ya.

IIRC, it was done with a very different intention 'back in the day'. i think the listener was meant to recognise the original pieces.

kind of like an inside joke, only significantly more high brow.

That's pretty sad that they'd be doing that in things like Star Wars. And although i know very little about the history of copywriting, Holst, like Britten, is a very modern composer.

Sometimes i wonder how much of other people's work makes it into my own by way of the subconscious. It's something i worry about obsessively when I'm writing, wondering if I've inadvertently plagiarized.

we used to have discussions about this very thing in my music theory classes, back when I was a mooshic major...

IIRC, we discussed using the same chord progressions, and about whether this was plagarizing or not... can't remember what we came up with...

it was a long time ago..