Don't come to the Thunderdome unless you are willing to pay

[theCryptofishist]

Barter can also be described as creating value. That strikes me as more ... well.. creative.

This statement seems to me to be very influenced by the rhetoric tossed around by believers in Adam Smith's 'invisible hand" fairy tale. Also of the way that certain "evolutionary psychologists" justify custom as "natural." I'm not saying that that's what you are saying, but it tends to undermine your point for me.

[Rian Jackson]

Is it going too far to posit that 'bartering' is your comfort zone...

I took issue with the blanket statement because I do not feel that human beings need to be under stress in order to be creative or to have that creativity flourish.

it would not be going to far to posit that interacting with strangers is where my comort boundaries lie.

sorry, babe, i was actually talking to blyslv.
it doesn't really seem to apply to you, on playa, from what i can tell.

[theCryptofishist]

I do not feel that human beings need to be under stress in order to be creative or to have that creativity flourish.

I wish to second this sentiment.

I think we've all seen or even done some of those halfassed papers done on the night before they were due. Sometimes you do manage to go somewhere with them true, but other times it's just pulled out of nowhere and polished nicely.

I've had some really nice creative moments while at leisure, almost achieving "flow" even. I think a lot of human creativity is connected to tinkering, which is almost a form of play and much more an experience of expansive time, not time closing in. And sometimes that stress is less creativity than survival--a very different thing.

[stuart]

talking to blyslv

my bad

[Ranger Genius]

And isn't that what barter is, two people trying to figure out what the worth of something is? My vodka/cranberry/orange juice; is that worth you wearing a stunning evening gown for 15 minutes? There, an exchange of value. Anybody tries to tell me that's not the spirit of BM can go fuck yer day.

I don't consider that bartering. Maybe you missed my earlier posts about it, but I consider some sort of participatory requirement to be not just okay, but better than just giving away drinks. Obviously, there would be contexts in which sexual favors would be an acceptable means of participation, but the difference is when they're the "price" of a drink.

I would gladly wear an evening gown for 15 minutes in order to earn a drink from you, and consider it having gotten two gifts, rather than having paid for a drink. "Do something to inspire and/or amuse us" is not the same proposition as "Do something for me/give me something." Do you understand the distinction I'm trying to draw?

[blyslv]

outside their comfort zone and that's where creativity thrives

I don't buy that

It's an opinion. It's not for sale. However I'm willing to modify it for various trinkets...

I've heard a lot of semi-sanctimonious statements about how people don't do barter. Why? Becasue it smacks of commerce? I don't do money when I'm out there, but I consider that very different from barter. Out on the playa, finding the value of something dosn't mean assigning a monetary value, it means figuring out what one would trade. That has been a basis of human interaction long before the abstraction of currency came along.

[theCryptofishist]

semi-sanctimonious

hmph.

[Nightterror]

Obviously, there would be contexts in which sexual favors would be an acceptable means of participation, but the difference is when they're the "price" of a drink.

I would gladly wear an evening gown for 15 minutes in order to earn a drink from you,

If you are doing something in order to "earn a drink" isn't that the same as paying a price?

[Nightterror]

[quote="blyslv"]Becasue it smacks of commerce? I don't do money when I'm out there, but I consider that very different from barter. [quote]

Do you think that bartering is not commerce?

[Rian Jackson]

blyslv, i kind of think you have to give up your stance of being no-commerce if you want to support barter.

either is fine - they both have their pros and cons. but you just can't be both; it's illogical.

[stuart]

I don't do barter because it makes me uncomfortable. I also hate to haggle. I either wanna hang out and share shit or I wanna know before engaging someone that X gets me Y.

[theCryptofishist]

Barter \Bar"ter\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Bartered (?); p. pr. & vb. n. Bartering.] [OE. bartren, OF. barater, bareter, to cheat, exchange, perh. fr. Gr. ? to do, deal (well or ill), use practices or tricks, or perh. fr. Celtic; cf. Ir. brath treachery, W. brad. Cf. Barrator.] To traffic or trade, by exchanging one commodity for another, in distinction from a sale and purchase, in which money is paid for the commodities transferred; to truck.

Barter \Bar"ter\, v. t.
To trade or exchange in the way of barter; to exchange (frequently for an unworthy consideration); to traffic; to truck; -- sometimes followed by away; as, to barter away goods or honor.

Barter \Bar"ter\, n.
1. The act or practice of trafficking by exchange of commodities; an exchange of goods.

The spirit of huckstering and barter. --Burke.

2. The thing given in exchange.

Syn: Exchange; dealing; traffic; trade; truck.

Commerce \Com"merce\, n.

1. The exchange or buying and selling of commodities; esp. the exchange of merchandise, on a large scale, between different places or communities; extended trade or traffic.

The public becomes powerful in proportion to the opulence and extensive commerce of private men. --Hume.

2. Social intercourse; the dealings of one person or class in
society with another; familiarity.

Fifteen years of thought, observation, and commerce
with the world had made him [Bunyan] wiser.
--Macaulay.

3. Sexual intercourse. --W. Montagu.

4. A round game at cards, in which the cards are subject to
exchange, barter, or trade. --Hoyle.

Chamber of commerce. See Chamber.

Syn: Trade; traffic; dealings; intercourse; interchange;
communion; communication.

Commerce \Com*merce"\ (? or ?), v. i. [imp. & p. p. Commerced;
p>. pr. & vb. n. Commercing.] [Cf. F. commercer, fr. LL.
commerciare.]
1. To carry on trade; to traffic. [Obs.]

Beware you commerce not with bankrupts. --B. Jonson.

2. To hold intercourse; to commune. --Milton.

Commercing with himself. --Tennyson.

Musicians . . . taught the people in angelic
harmonies to commerce with heaven. --Prof.
Wilson.

Gift \Gift\, n. [OE. gift, yift, yeft, AS. gift, fr. gifan to
give; akin to D. & G. gift, Icel. gift, gipt, Goth. gifts (in
comp.). See Give, v. t.]
1. Anything given; anything voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation; a present; an offering.

Shall I receive by gift, what of my own, . . . I can
command ? --Milton.

2. The act, right, or power of giving or bestowing; as, the office is in the gift of the President.

3. A bribe; anything given to corrupt.

Neither take a gift, for a gift doth blind the eyes
of the wise. --Deut. xvi.
19.

4. Some quality or endowment given to man by God; a pre["e]minent and special talent or aptitude; power; faculty; as, the gift of wit; a gift for speaking.

5. (Law) A voluntary transfer of real or personal property, without any consideration. It can be perfected only by deed, or in case of personal property, by an actual delivery of possession. --Bouvier. Burrill.

Gift rope (Naut), a rope extended to a boat for towing it; a guest rope.

Syn: Present; donation; grant; largess; benefaction; boon; bounty; gratuity; endowment; talent; faculty.

Or we could take this to the semantics thread.

[blyslv]

"Do something to inspire and/or amuse us" is not the same proposition as "Do something for me/give me something." Do you understand the distinction I'm trying to draw?

I think I undertstand it, but I don't necessarily agree with it. In either instance, you're asking somebody to do something that they might not ordinarily do, or at least not at that red-hot moment. They got something they wanted (a drinky-poo) and I got something I wanted (gender-blending). To me that's barter and anything but evul.

Barter to me means trading things where there is no clear value established. Thus barter forces a process of interaction between two people, and I think there is a value inherent in the process quite apart form whatever the value of the things exchanged. "Commerce" requries the abstraction of cash (something that has no intrinsic value, you can't eat a $5 bill) and also has pre-determined value. There is no interaction there.

re: creativity and stress-- I may have gone a bit out on a limb. I mean creativity comes from myriad sources, eh?

[Ranger Genius]

Obviously, there would be contexts in which sexual favors would be an acceptable means of participation, but the difference is when they're the "price" of a drink.

I would gladly wear an evening gown for 15 minutes in order to earn a drink from you,

If you are doing something in order to "earn a drink" isn't that the same as paying a price?

Not when what I'm doing to "earn" the drink is something of benefit to me, or someone else (other than the provider of the drink, though they can benefit too). Are you telling me that if you went into a bar, and the bartender told you that if he gave you a drink, you'd have to pour the drink for the next guy, who would have to pour the drink for the next guy, et cetera, you'd call it commerce and tell him to fuck off?

Maybe "price" isn't the word I want. COST is the word I want. It doesn't COST anything for me to wear a dress for a few minnutes, if that is the PRICE of the drink. What does it COST you to perform a little stunt to get a drink? Nothing, but you GAIN applause, some attention from the other bar patrons, and a drink. EARNING something is not the same as BUYING it.

I disagree, though, that commerce is human nature. Commerce is how we deal with people who are not members of our community. The members of a community provide for other members who are in need (exception for parasites), and do so freely. You may be asked to earn what you get in a community, but you will not be asked to buy it. Think of families..you may have to do your chores in order to earn your dinner, but you won't be asked to pay for it, or even, probably, allowed to.

Am I making any sense?

[stuart]

you're asking somebody to do something that they might not ordinarily do

my people call that work

[Rian Jackson]

the one thing that i do remember the anthropology/sociology folks saying about barter (and that i find to hold true within communities) is that the process of it forms tighter community bonds because you aren't just swapping a set chunk of change.

this works very well when the community is shared - when there's some sort of background idea of what comparative worths are. i'm really uncomfortable doing it in places where there's major gap in cultural and economic knowledge.

maybe all of the above was really about haggling. i remember one day when my new friend abed, a shop owner, engaged me in haggling just to prove that he could sell me something. he cut the price to a major loss to him, and then wouldn't accept payment at all, in the end. we both took from it amazing memories, and had an enormously funny evening in the process (as did the audience). i'm pretty sure that we'll forever argue about whether or not he managed to 'sell' me something, since the prowess of sales - or being stubborn enough not to buy - was the real prize of the night.

had it been someone else, the above would definitely be commerce. it still was based on a premise of commerce. and whether the 'social capital' exchange that people so love to speak of is academically in reference to haggling or barter, i think it stands the same. there is some social benefit beyong the economic that's gained in such exchanges.

it seems to me that this is part of the pro-barter argument, correct?

perhaps part of the problem with some playa gifts, such as bars, is that the gift becomes cheapened (by the 'consumers' ) in the same way that the interaction of exchanging money for goods tends to be so decayed here.

[Nightterror]

you're asking somebody to do something that they might not ordinarily do

my people call that work

My exwife called that sex

[Rian Jackson]

blyslv, i guess i'm envisioning something similar - more like, to get into x room, you have to do perform. then the drinks are inside.

it may seem like splitting hairs, but it feels different. and it would be really fun if those things you made people do - say, dress up - continued in the bar. a whole bunch of burners in someone else's dress up togs in a bar.

that sounds like fun.

[Ranger Genius]

"Commerce" requries the abstraction of cash

I disagree with that. Commerce existed long before abstract currency. But abstract currency is not the only kind of currency. Cotton was once currency, as have been raw metals, wood, stone, you name it. Currency is something you can GIVE someone else in exchange for something they can GIVE you.

[blyslv]

the one thing that i do remember the anthropology/sociology folks saying about barter (and that i find to hold true within communities) is that the process of it forms tighter community bonds because you aren't just swapping a set chunk of change.

SNIP


perhaps part of the problem with some playa gifts, such as bars, is that the gift becomes cheapened (by the 'consumers' ) in the same way that the interaction of exchanging money for goods tends to be so decayed here.

Thanks rian, that sums it up for me.

I was in Fez once and wanted to bring a gift home for mom. I spent about 5 hours in the souk haggling over a teapot. We smoked, drank endless cups of mint tea, learned about each other's family. we would occasionally mention price. There was some histrionics, some hiliraity and all that. We finally settled on a price. I was happy with myself, I'd driven him from 200 dirham to 120! I was a bad ass, I was multi-cultural I was diverse. 3 days later in a tourist shop I saw it for 90 dirham. When I got home, the spout leaked. But mom was happy nonetheless, I had fun and a story, the guy in the souk got to rip off another tourist. We all won!

But my point is that we interacted during a process of assigning a mutually argreed upon value to an item. There was cash invovled ultimatly so it wasn't quite barter by the definition I advanced above. But it was haggling. And if I decide to barter on the playa this year, one of the things of value for all parties involved in the nefarious scheme (I hope)is the process of haggling.

Look for me, I'm the one with the large pile of silver teapots.

[theCryptofishist]

"Commerce" requries the abstraction of cash

I disagree with that. Commerce existed long before abstract currency. But abstract currency is not the only kind of currency. Cotton was once currency, as have been raw metals, wood, stone, you name it. Currency is something you can GIVE someone else in exchange for something they can GIVE you.

Genius is correct for my sence of how the terms are used and for the sorts of explinations that I've seen in histories. Trade can be a synonym of both Barter and Commerce.

[Ranger Genius]

What you're talking about, blyslv, is a different process from what we normally refer to as commerce, or even bartering. That's about the interaction, the participation of both of you in deciding what it's worth. (Haggle Camp would be fun, I think.)

It's a rare thing for the focus to be on the designation of value, or the interaction of two people. It almost always devolves into focus on the transaction, or on the commodities.

[Tiara]

Not sure if I can add any coherent and/or meaningful distinctions to this debate. But as I read through it, I'm struck by the thought that barter/commerce relates to commodities, be they cash, cotton, pretty shells, salt, or whatever. But the barter/share idea that I think blyslv is trying to get across is related to an experience, specifically the experience of getting someone to step outside their accustomed "comfort boundary" and try something new.

Maybe a shorthand way of distinguising between the two situations is: did something just change hands that only one person can possess? or did something just occur that two or more people could have shared, witnessed, and/or learned from.

[AntiM]

There's a lot of element of choice here. If bartering is too commercial, then don't do it.

Personally, I don't like performing like a trained monkey for trinkets, and I especially do not like being told my trick or story or whatever is not good enough for a reward. Screw that. I will be as silly as the next person, but I won't jump through hoops I do not choose. If that means I have to drink my own booze or go without schwag, well that's okay by me. I just don't like how mean-spirited the exchanges can become.

I don't mind some barter for stuff if both parties agree, but if you're trading performances for stuff, there's always going to be someone who steps up, fails to meet the standard, and then nurses their rejection for months on end and makes whiny posts on eplaya. (taking a poke at myself there, no one else should read this as an insult).

[Ron]

...

Not when what I'm doing to "earn" the drink is something of benefit to me, or someone else (other than the provider of the drink, though they can benefit too). Are you telling me that if you went into a bar, and the bartender told you that if he gave you a drink, you'd have to pour the drink for the next guy, who would have to pour the drink for the next guy, et cetera, you'd call it commerce and tell him to fuck off?

No, but I don't have a problem with bartering on the playa. :)

Seems to me that you're making a personal political decision. There are exchanges of value you like, and those you don't. Those exchanges of value that involve your own sense of whimsy, that seem to you to involve more than just two folk, and so on, they're OK. But those that don't match your own standard of "appropiate," aren't. That's cool, we've all got a right to such standards and all have them, but in this case I don't really "buy," it. :)

Ron

[Tancorix]

AntiM addressed my bartering concerns perfectly with this quote:

Personally, I don't like performing like a trained monkey for trinkets, and I especially do not like being told my trick or story or whatever is not good enough for a reward. Screw that. I will be as silly as the next person, but I won't jump through hoops I do not choose. If that means I have to drink my own booze or go without schwag, well that's okay by me. I just don't like how mean-spirited the exchanges can become.

I got sick of bartering and this last year I gave stuff away. I got enough drinks back with no expectations to keep me content, but not enough to be drunk off my ass. But I gained enough enjoyment from giving that it didn't matter what I got in return.

[dragonfly Jafe]

besides, how many drinks can one drink at BM? That has never been an issue for me....or if one attraction is "asking", go to the next (you won't be seeing 90% of BM anyways....) - unless it is something you MUST do, in which case resort to Human Nature - barter. If you are EXPECTING to do something, there will always be a price....

[headquarters]

If you are EXPECTING to do something, there will always be a price....

very well said

[Isotopia]

you're asking somebody to do something that they might not ordinarily do

my people call that work

My exwife called that sex

<Monitor Spray Shield(TM) enagaged>

[lothos 1162]

as 1of the medics for thunderdome,yes if you want to fight,you barter(hence watch the movie Mad Max beyond thunderdome).Gifting or bartering is a way of life on the playa.if one wishes to choose to share/give away or barter,that's up to the person or theme camp,AND THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.Lothos has spoken.