Don't come to the Thunderdome unless you are willing to pay

[dragonfly Jafe]

I thought it was about sharing. I hoped it was about sharing.

Great! Are you bringing a Significant Other to the Playa this year? Of course, based on your previous posts I know that when I (and the other 34,998 folks) come up asking for a little "comfort", you'll both share without asking for a thing and without personal consideration! No need for sleep, etc. There is a Public that expects - no - demands satisfaction!

[Rian Jackson]

Maybe I'm missing something, DYJ, but there's a difference between being expected to give up your personal camp space and not asking for a return on something you came intending to gift.

You're making unwarranted rhetorical leaps.

[Nightterror]

Based on my previous posts I have stated at least twice that I dont share my significant other nor would I barter her. Thanks for paying attention.

The problem with Bartering is that it creates a society that "Expects" and "Demands" is that what we want - no.

[dragonfly Jafe]

Granted, a leap was taken, but it was done so to illustrate a point (my apology to Nightterror if I offended).

The comment was that Burningman is "all about sharing". Many of us have been trying to point out that there are sometimes limits to what can be shared (like the number of people that can fight in Thunderdome) - that one should not expect to successfully compete for a limited resource, especially if they constrain themselves from the start by eliminating barter as a means to the end. Trying to like-wise constrain everyone else on the Playa to your set of morals (so you have a better chance) is futile and childlike. Everyone may not agree with bartering on the Playa, but it is a reality in some cases so deal with it...

A personal hot button for me is when people cry because they didn't get something they wanted at Burningman, then explain that they "thought it was about sharing", or "gifting".

If people think Burningman is about unconditional sharing, they should share it all. Without reservation. Anything less is hypocritical...

Otherwise, there needs to be an acknowledgement that sometimes people do not want to share (and that Burningman is NOT about Sharing everything with everyone). And that that is OK, to be expected even. Sometimes people want something before they give you something. That does not make them an "Evil Person". You can choose to barter under those terms (or discuss other options), or walk away.

But if you complain to the world trying to get them to agree that you should have gotten what you wanted (without additional effort/expense), you may once again be dissappointed.

Expect Nothing, and you will never be disappointed.

[blyslv]

You're making unwarranted rhetorical leaps.

Lottsa that busting out, it seems.

When I read about what somebody thinks someone else "should do" I check my pockets to make sure my wallet is there.

[dragonfly Jafe]

Based on my previous posts I have stated at least twice that I dont share my significant other nor would I barter her. Thanks for paying attention.

The problem with Bartering is that it creates a society that "Expects" and "Demands" is that what we want - no.

My bad - I just re-read all 15 pages of your posts...and you did state your wide would not be shared (even though you have also stated that to you Burningman is "All about sharing")...

A question to you; Do you think that the Thunderdome (or anyone else) has an obligation to gift equally to everyone? And if they choose not to gift to someone, should that person have no other alternative but to walk away?

Your original beef seems to be that these 18 y.o. were "driven to steal" by the "Evil Barter Requirement" at Thunderdome (Is this a fair summary?)

That if "Evil Barter" were not present on the Playa, the implication seems to be, that these 18 y.o. would not have stolen the liquer (and happiness would reign...)

To me, however, those 18 y.o. were "Evil" to begin with (if they were driven to steal, they were driven to steal before they came to Burningman...) If they can justify stealing liquer to get into Thunderdome, they can justify anything.

Trying to shift the blame to Thunderdome is pretty funny, really...

[Rian Jackson]

Thanks for the clarification, DFJ. I think where this goes outside of personal morals is that 'supposedly' BM is a commerce-free event. Hence the wrangling with what, exactly, is defined as commerce.

I would (beware, personal opinions on the way) prefer to have a BM where people expecting things to be given them were told to fuck off than a BM that's about bartering. But I imagine that there are people who would rather engage in quasi-commerce than be told to go fuck themselves.

I would draw a large distinction, in practicum, between a hippie-gathering where giving anything to whoever asks is *required* and a society where people are geared to give things away when they are moved to do so.

Perhaps in a practical sense this would mean that TD would shut down on nights when they didn't feel like gifting that experience to the community. Throw up some barbed wire if necessary. Then, perhaps, the opening of the TD venue will be given in a spirit which doesn't expect re-payment... and non-DG folks will learn not to *expect* that TD serve them.

[Bob A]

A personal hot button for me is when people cry because they didn't get something they wanted at Burningman, then explain that they "thought it was about sharing", or "gifting".

If people think Burningman is about unconditional sharing, they should share it all. Without reservation. Anything less is hypocritical...

I think that’s your problem DFJ. Your reading every complaint and wine you have ever heard into what the OP said. This is your issue. He said he would have been satisfied if they had said no. It was the cold non-interactive bartering they were demanding that bothered him.

Of course there are limits to sharing and your crazy extremes are not really logical arguments.

I realize there is no way barter would ever go away, after all there are 10,000 or so yahoos and newbies that come every year so shit will happen. The more visible camps will always have problems like this. The roller coaster must have the same problems. They made people perform stunts and dance in the cages to earn a seat on the coaster. Some may not like the performance idea but it controlled the crowds and created a very interactive environment.

The general gist is there is something for everyone. If you don't like center camp you stay away. If you don't like barter bars you stay away. There are enough things of every type that all can find their place. But no one should demand or expect anything.

Bob A

[dragonfly Jafe]

Based on my previous posts I have stated at least twice that I dont share my significant other nor would I barter her. Thanks for paying attention.

The problem with Bartering is that it creates a society that "Expects" and "Demands" is that what we want - no.

My bad - I just re-read all 15 pages of your posts...and you did state your wide

<<<OOpps! That should be "wife" - no disrespect intended.

[Nightterror]

Based on my previous posts I have stated at least twice that I dont share my significant other nor would I barter her. Thanks for paying attention.

The problem with Bartering is that it creates a society that "Expects" and "Demands" is that what we want - no.

My bad - I just re-read all 15 pages of your posts...and you did state your wide

<<<OOpps! That should be "wife" - no disrespect intended.

Are you calling my wife fat? Differences aside thats pretty funny.
No offense taken - thanks

[blyslv]

non-interactive bartering

That is a contradiction of terms. "Barter" by its nature is interactive. That's one of the main things that make it fun.

Now where can I go to brag about all the cool gifts I've given away?

[Nightterror]

A question to you; Do you think that the Thunderdome (or anyone else) has an obligation to gift equally to everyone? And if they choose not to gift to someone, should that person have no other alternative but to walk away?

Your original beef seems to be that these 18 y.o. were "driven to steal" by the "Evil Barter Requirement" at Thunderdome (Is this a fair summary?)

Trying to shift the blame to Thunderdome is pretty funny, really...

How could be obligated to gift equally? No I don't think that anyone has an obligation to gift or perform or to barter or to do anything. Just because you let little Jimmy play on your art does not lend to my perception that I should get to also.

I think that the Barter System "drove" them to steal. Which at 18 they were old to enough to know better and old enough to be responsible for their actions. But the fact is that it happened.

Honestly - they would have been better off to be turned away.

[stuart]

find simple ways to limit attendance

use real weapons

[Bob A]

non-interactive bartering

That is a contradiction of terms. "Barter" by its nature is interactive. That's one of the main things that make it fun.

Now where can I go to brag about all the cool gifts I've given away?

Part of the problem with these chats is everyone takes things so literally. Yes barter is interactive. But when the guy says the price is a bottle of liquor to play that’s not very interactive. Its just a for b and no community is built and no relations are built. If they do what the roller coaster did then there is plenty of interaction and hopefully a little community is built etc.

Bob A

[blyslv]

One of the problems on this board is the sloppy use of language. If barter is interactive, and what they did was not interactive, then how could it be barter?

And no system drives people to steal! Talk about abdicating any sense of responsibility. Beside the gift/barter economy another thing espoused by the LLC is "radical responsibility." That means not blaming your actions on pissant reasons.

[dragonfly Jafe]

non-interactive bartering

That is a contradiction of terms. "Barter" by its nature is interactive. That's one of the main things that make it fun.

Now where can I go to brag about all the cool gifts I've given away?

Part of the problem with these chats is everyone takes things so literally. Yes barter is interactive. But when the guy says the price is a bottle of liquor to play that’s not very interactive. Its just a for b and no community is built and no relations are built. If they do what the roller coaster did then there is plenty of interaction and hopefully a little community is built etc. Bob A

I agree with this, and actually if you look up the definition of "currency" I think everyone would agree that under these conditions Liquer can be considered currency (especially if you are asking for 2 bottles). So, if someone is asking for something specific like Liquer (that is readily accepted) this is really commerce...

...but (IMHO) if they are not specific, but just say something like "got any schwag to offer?" then it is barter (schwag for the chance to fight), and interaction is occuring. Even if ultimately no agreement is made, both parties were engaged for a moment. I still would frown on this, personally, unless they were very accepting of what they considered acceptable schwag. Best is what you suggest - performing in some fashion for the masses. This not only engages the Barter-er and the Barter-ee (?) but the masses as well. And can be a growth opportunity.

Ideally, the 18 y.o.'s would have been asked to either do some performance or task (clean-up an area of MOOP, or otherwise assist with the theme camp). I suspect there may be an "image" thing (as well as some practicalities) preventing this mechanism from being adopted by this camp (and the arena is THE performance of Thunderdome...) But I object to the notion that all barter is bad at Burningman (although I did not intend to get all holy about it - Sorry!)

[Nightterror]

Blyslv -One of the problems with this board is that some people are in such a hurry to get their point accross that they don't read what was actually written.



No system drives people to steal - do you live in a cave.

[Bob A]

One of the problems on this board is the sloppy use of language. If barter is interactive, and what they did was not interactive, then how could it be barter?

And no system drives people to steal! Talk about abdicating any sense of responsibility. Beside the gift/barter economy another thing espoused by the LLC is "radical responsibility." That means not blaming your actions on pissant reasons.

Well the problem is there isn't really a word for what happens at black rock. Barter is too wide in scope. Barter in itself does not necessarily include haggling or negotiating which would be interaction. Some business barter clubs in the real world just exchange like value. $100 of wood chips for $100 of rice. They even use a credit card to handle the transfer; there is no haggle. I don't even see the point of those.

What the example above was referring to was barter without haggling, negotiation, and reasonable interaction. Barter that is open and includes all the above can be, in some situations, more fun and more in the spirit of the event.

As far as the theft part I agree they can’t blame TD because they stole, that creates more of the problems that people complain about on this board. People need to take responsibility for all their actions. These kids could have gone around to various camps struck up relationships and they may have eventually found some one to gift what they needed. They could have made it into a scavenger hunt type thing instead of a 2nd story job. I’m sure these kids just ran around asking with the least amount of chatting between hi and bye and then decided to steal.

Bob A

[Nightterror]

No one blamed TD for making the juvy's steal.

[Guest]

[quote]I think that the Barter System "drove" them to steal. [/quote]

[quote]No system drives people to steal - do you live in a cave.[/quote]

Um - which one is it, NT?

[Nightterror]

And no system drives people to steal!

I was quoting blyslv and asking him if he lives in a cave.

I said "I think that the Barter System "drove" them to steal."

blyslv was quoted on this page saiying that also!

He says "no system drives pep to steal" - I say barter does.

[Guest]

My apologies NT. I must have misread.

[Nightterror]

It's all good

[dragonfly Jafe]

cur·ren·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kûrn-s, kr-) n. pl. cur·ren·cies

1) Money in any form when in actual use as a medium of exchange, especially circulating paper money.

2) Transmission from person to person as a medium of exchange; circulation: coins now in currency.

3) General acceptance or use; prevalence: the currency of a slang term.

4) The state of being current; up-to-dateness: Can you check the currency of this address?



mon·ey ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn) n. pl. mon·eys or mon·ies

1) A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquifiable account.
2) The official currency, coins, and negotiable paper notes issued by a government.
3) Assets and property considered in terms of monetary value; wealth.

[Bob]

And no system drives people to steal!

I was quoting blyslv and asking him if he lives in a cave.
I said "I think that the Barter System "drove" them to steal."
blyslv was quoted on this page saiying that also!
He says "no system drives pep to steal" - I say barter does.

Did you have a sense as to whether your teenage friends read the fucking ticket and the Survival Guide? The parts about obeying local, state and federal laws, and comporting oneself as one would in any municipality?

[Nightterror]

Did you have a sense as to whether your teenage friends read the fucking ticket and the Survival Guide? The parts about obeying local, state and federal laws, and comporting oneself as one would in any municipality?

First off they bare the responsibility of their own actions.

Second off and just as important. Just as it is the responsibility of a bartender to stop serving alcohol to someone obviously drunk off their ass as the local laws state. So should it be the responsibility of curators of art at BM, such as TD, not to require underage burners to provide alcohol to participate in their art.

TD requested they provide a subtance that was illegal for them to have in their possession - wait (in their fucking possession)

[Nightterror]

Its funny that someone that supports commerce at BM suggests someone else read the Survival Guide.

[Bob]

Nightterror, your argument seems similar to one that was put forward on the eplaya after the recent LA wildfires -- that TV coverage might in turn incite certain people to commit arson. And your comment re: commerce seems a bit out of context. Feel free to clarify.

In any case, my complaint about this thread is your apparent desire, from the safety of relative anonymity, to publicly blackball the camp that does the Thunderdome based on one incident that you learned about second-hand and that could well have misinterpreted on your part.

[Nightterror]

Nightterror, your argument seems similar to one that was put forward on the eplaya after the recent LA wildfires -- that TV coverage might in turn incite certain people to commit arson. And your comment re: commerce seems a bit out of context. Feel free to clarify.

In any case, my complaint about this thread is your apparent desire, from the safety of relative anonymity, to publicly blackball the camp that does the Thunderdome based on one incident that you learned about second-hand and that could well have misinterpreted on your part.

Clarification - As has been said - Asking for booze to participate is bartering - bartering is commerce - commerce is not allowed at BM.
This is the idea that has some of us divided.


I was involved first hand when the boys asked me for the booze and I told them I would not give booze to underage individuals. I went with them to TD to find out if these were the true facts of the case just for my own curiousity. It was true and not wanting ruin anybodies time including my own I decided not to press the issue at the time. I am not going to tell TD how to run their show. But I think it is wrong to charge for participation. I think it is wrong for TD to suggest underage boys supply them with booze. I only bring it up now because I just received my 05 tickets and whilst online I noticed this forum and wanted to hear others opionions on the topic.

Unless telling a true story is blackballing I think you have made an accusation from the safety of your Eplaya chair. Long live Thunderdome. I'm sure they go to great lengths to provide a safe attraction. However asking for booze from kids is not safe - Long live all barter bars. I think its wrong and I won't do it but to each is own - it is Burningman.

As far as safe anonymity - you wouldn't know me from any other John Thomas or dirty slapper at BM. I'm sharing a memory of BM04 and it is upto you what you believe. I mean no harm but I stand by my convictions.

[dragonfly Jafe]

Clarification - As has been said - Asking for booze to participate is bartering - bartering is commerce - commerce is not allowed at BM.

While perhaps you could make a logical chain supporting your assertion based strictly on limited defintions, I maintain that barter is alive and well at Burningman (and in fact, can never go away, IMHO). Some say it is Commerce that is verbotten (but obviously not ALL commerce, see #2,3 below!) Obviously what the BM commerce rules apply to is definition #1.

com·merce ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kmrs)
n.
1) The buying and selling of goods, especially on a large scale, as between cities or nations. See Synonyms at business.
2) Intellectual exchange or social interaction.
3) Sexual intercourse

So to say that all commerce is verbotten is (technically) also wrong! Can you imagine no intellectual/social exchange at BM? (obviously no one is going to misinterpret the rules this way, but...)

I maintain that if you establish a "price" (like setting the going rate at a bottle of liquer per fight) then that is commerce. If no price or medium of exchange is established, but must be determined by haggling ("sure I'll take a back-rub and some homemade lip gloss in exchange for..."), then this is not "evil commerce" but "good interaction". Especially if you accept a wide variety of "money" (like labor, singing, handmade gifts, etc).

You will never eliminate bartering at Burningman. Never, Never, Never, it is too useful as a means of interaction (and exchanging stuff). It is too informal to stop. It is "low-tech". It is built-in to the human psyche. Sure, gifting is best, but the other side to that coin is barter, and if you have one you have the other.