Assistance for BurningMan

[Release Me]

Burningman is essential camping in a well developed infrastructure.

So is Sun Valley.

[Bob]

Speaking of "AA", maybe we should hook up with Truckee Meadows Community College and offer credits in, like, Fine Arts or something.

[Blue Jester]

I don't know about other people but I have lost some of my good freinds out there in the crowds while we were both trying to stay together. my point is that If these people realize that there shaporones could be ditched in a matter of minutes on the esplanade (not to mention the fact of free booze and other mind altering substaces can be found almost everywhere) , I feel they may take advantage of this and possiably get wasted which may result in violence. but what the hell do I know.It may be a great experience. cause you know nothing goes together better than ex-cons/wife beaters/drunks, fire and lots of (free) booze.

[geekster]

To answer a few concerns.
MissNev, It is a curiousity that your view of Sun Valley differs so much. My stats come from Washoe County Social Services, I do not know if they are available to the public. I work with these folk in Sun Valley. I recommend a drive up Sun Valley Blvd to Second by Hobies, turn left to Sidehill drive up side hill to Quartz turn left on Quartz and follow it. Take a high clearance vehicle. My favorite trailer is the singlewide that the occupant has nailed unpainted plywood completely around, covering all sheetmetal and windows, but not skirting it, just leaning other sheets against the back half of it leaving the front half open. [/quite]

Okay, so what. I fail to see the connection between someone's living conditions and why they should go to burning man.

Cost: We already have grant pledges, the cost is not astronomical when you consider a 5 day stay for school groups at Headlands Institute in Marin Headlands can run $20,000 and they are booked solid.

WHAT???? WTF does THAT mean? Headlands Institute is a retreat facillity. A fucking resort conference center and spa. And a pretty darned upscale one too. Burining man ISNT. What the fuck is the point of comparing an apple to an orange? That statement is just off the wall and makes no sense. (for people back east ... he is trying to somehow say "it costs $20K for a week at The Greenbrier in West Virginia, so Burning Man isn't so bad"). Fuck, dude, send them to Headlands Institute! It is CHEAPER and they will probably get more out of it. Who the fuck wants to go to BM just to find out you have to work your ass off, there is no hot tub, and a shower is a fucking godsend.

Chaperones, the lead group here is expected to be SOG out of Minden, just south of Reno, they, are pretty qualified. We expect the participants to participate in Burningman as much as anyone, we just want to make sure that their experience is positive.

If you're an adult and need a fucking chaperone, you do NOT belong at burning man, period. You want to "make sure" their experiance is positive? That is SO loaded with expectation and taking responsibility for other people's crap that you are just asking for trouble. Just exactly how do you intend to "make sure" people have a good experiance? Sounds to me like a perfect recipie for "drama camp".

I welcome critiques of the project, you are the people most familiar. I attended BurningMan prefence, 10 and more years ago. I don't think the changes are positive, but for entrapped people it could be "The Channel Changer".

Namaste

Just let us know exactly where you are camping, okay?

[MissNev]

Well said, Geekster. Since meandthemissus contends that the Sun Valley demographic is a group of alcoholic, drug using, ex cons (based, apparently, on 1 particular mobile home), Burning Man is the absolute worst possible place to bring them. It would be like bringing a pyromaniac to Fire Camp (actually, I think they encourage that). Perhaps organizing a day trip to Bower's Mansion, or even a camping excursion to Davis Creek, would be more appropriate.

Burning Man is a radical experiment of SELF RELIANCE in EXTREME CONDITIONS.

I know of many people who don't drink or engage in illegal drug activity EXCEPT at Burning Man. I honestly don't believe the environment at Burning Man would be any incentive for a clean living lifestyle, especially for someone who finds it diffucult to maintain that lifestyle in the real world.

[Dustdevil]

This could give the BLM Rangers and Sheriffs' Dept some real crime to fight, thus they would pay less attention to the masses.

[geekster]

Basically he is saying ... "I want to bring a bunch of people that have demonstrated that they don't know how to behave to burning man in the hopes that it will teach them how to behave". All it is going to take is ONE of them getting pissed off about something, just an argument about water or food or someone feeling they are doing more than their share of work for that entire thing to come apart.

Remember, we aren't talking about your average burners. He seems to be talking about people that have serious trouble with understanding boundaries, trouble respecting others, trouble moderating their own behaviors, etc. What happens three days in when they decide they want to leave? Are you at that poing going to pay their fare home or drive them yourserlf? If you don't take them home, what is to keep one of them from konking you on the head? We might be talking about people that don't quite grasp the concept of consequences for their actions the way some other people do.

Bottom line ... wonderful idea in theory, recipie for disaster in practice. You would probably be okay if you had a large staff of trained professionals. Even then you can't MAKE a person have a chaperone if they don't want one. What happens when they split up in 20 different directions and ditch their chaperones?

No thanks. How about if I pay you NOT to bring them?

[Silver 2]

Uh, kids,

Rob said it best:

Guys name is Black Rock Rick. Look up his posts too.

This is an excellent troll, I would say that it is his best work thus far. He sets up a situation where if people jump on the bandwagon he can later attack them, and by extention all Burners as liberal idiots who have no connection to reality. On the other hand if the general response is 'hell no' then we are rich, over-educated partiers who don't really give a damn about the poor. In psychology this is called a double bind situation. In our case we can either ignore this foolishness or we could run with it. I personally am not that good with whimsy so I will do just one thing:

Hey youandthemissus,

This is a big idea and project, you must have been active in the community for a long time. Can you name one burner that I or some of the others can recognize and contact? Come on now, I've only been around for three years and while I know only a few people on the west coast I can quickly think of about three or four names that a lot of people know and who can vouch for me; plus a few more that can only attest that I actually exist. Example, I have never met Trey but I could call Booger and ask him to call/email Trey about me. Hagey would not remember me but he would remember Sunshine who knows me quite well. There might be 6 degrees of seperation in the country but there is about 2 in the Burner community.

[dragonfly Jafe]

This is a big idea and project....

Assuming the origional poster is serious, and not merely another troll, the scope of this, not to mention the potential liability if anything goes wrong, is enormous. Way beyond the resources of a Burner, or even a group of Burners. And beyond the scope of the BMllc (after all they currently only give ~$125,000 for ART, where would such funds come from?) But well within the resources of the Federal Government (possibly even the Nevada Government). And if any of these fine folks are Native Americans, there may be funding available from that route also.

I recommend that you take this proposal and pitch it to your State Senators, State Representatives, and as many Federal Agencies as you have time to contact. If you play your cards right, you could get a grant and be the Administrator.

I also recommend you consider other venues for your project that are more relaxing and hospitible, where one can actually get a good nights rest along with a few good meals, and showers.

[Cabanasprings]

As we all know "The Mens Club" in Reno has been shut down due to local construction. This effectively caused NV unemployment rate to increase .05%. I am taking it upon myself to raise money for the strippers and hookers put to the street by the uncaring State of Nevada.

I want to raise money to send them to Burningman - (Camping with great infrastrucre). I think it would change their lives. All I need is the money and a few chaparones.

I'm calling it -- Strippers without 'skirts' - Burnigman 2005


All help will be greatly appreciated.

[ThePikey]

CS - I can't make any donations, but I can help set up the theme camp...

[samdu]

[
Guys name is Black Rock Rick. Look up his posts too.

oh, i'm so glad he's back, it's been way to quiet around here!

(pulls up a chair, a huge pitcher of bloody mary's, bag of cheetos, looks around) anybody wanna have a seat? got plenty of bloody mary's!


soupy sam

[Rabbi Dali Rick]

I'm calling it -- Strippers without 'skirts' - Burnigman 2005

All help will be greatly appreciated.

My job? Lube dispenser.......



"Good judgment comes from bad experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. " - From the Book of "Laughs and Giggles" Chapter 1 - Joke 12

slickly,
the rebbi

[meandthemissus]

Some good info here, among the snarks.

MissNev, theMissus (born and raised in Reno) figures you are new to town if you don't know Sun Valley. Take the drive I mentioned. My question is; why do you hold, so strongly, an opinion so at variance with easily observed reality. Leave Red Hawk, and take the drive I mentioned

For the others. I think with SOG "coaches" not much will go wrong. I think the Sheriffs and BLM will be pleased to have the gentlemen of SOG present, their level of training is considerably higher than either the Sheriffs or BLM.

As far as Burningman being an "extreme environment" anyplace with hundreds of portapotties, is hardly extreme. Burningman is safe and inclusive environment with various levels of security and medical care available. It is true that the country does become wilder and more pleasant requiring self sufficency as you leave the Playa, but that is not where Burningman is.

The financial end, should not be a problem either.

The balance sheet of posts here are primarily negative. It is true that there is probably a psychological component to that, and does not reflect the majority of actual attendees. But the data posted is interesting.

[Ranger Genius]

It's not just because we're pessimists. I assure you, this is a genuinely bad idea. In the history of ridiculously stupid ideas, this is the worst. In the words of the Black Adder: "That's the worst idea since Abe Lincoln said 'I'm tired of kicking around the house. Let's go take in a show.'" Since I suspect that you're actually a troll, I won't say any more here after this post. But just in case, please be aware that this is a truly idiotic idea, possibly even a psychotic one, and please seek professional help immediately.

[Mister Jellyfish Mister]

Yeah, check the expiration date on this sour milk. You are in "nobility of struggle" mode and your laser focus on this idea is preventing you from coming up with a good one. I did like the work ranch spin. Was that you Ranger? I wonder if it would be too much like their experience in prison.

[zanaru]

To get another view on things I solicited the personl opinion of someone who lives in the Reno area and has contact with the Federal Probation system and this was the reply:

I agree with your statement - this sounds a bit misguided. I know how expensive it is to attend Burning Man and I don't see how sending a limited number of Sun Valley residents to the event will change the community a great deal. But, since I have never been to Burning Man, the impact may be far greater than I can imagine. There is some truth to their claims though. Sun Valley is a rather depressed community north of Reno. I spoke with one of our probation officers (who has attended Burning Man and says it is the greatest experience of his life and will never miss a year from now on) and he confirmed that Sun Valley has the highest rate of former prisoners in the nation. I know that many people in Reno call Sun Valley - "Scum Valley" and it is known for its number of residents who live in double and/or single wide mobile homes. In reality, the area is considered "high desert" so the terrain is dry and full of sage brush. Property is relatively inexpensive so people who don't want neighbors too close can purchase several acres, put a trailer in the middle and be left alone. In the past, I don't believe there was much pride in ownership out there. The probation officer I spoke with said it is common knowledge among law enforcement that Sun Valley has the highest rate of meth labs in our area.

On the flip side of that coin, builders have recently put in very nice subdivisions and retail/grocery businesses are building there also. I think with the feverish rate Reno is growing, it is only a matter of time before more up-scale subdivisions start taking notice of land out there and property values will go up.

I am all for bettering the lives of people who, for whatever reason, have had a bad lot in life. In this case, however, I think energy and money would be better spent on programs that would benefit the entire ommunity - new parks, substance abuse programs, employment/vocational training, after school programs, etc. But, a seed has to be planted somewhere and if a large group of residents is changed by the Burning Man experience, maybe that positive energy will make a difference over time.....

I would lean more towards the local assistance suggested as it seems more people could benefit.

[Cabanasprings]

In this case, however, I think energy and money would be better spent on programs that would benefit the entire community

Yeah - like SKIRTING

[MissNev]

For the record, meandthemissus, I was born in Reno and have lived here by entire life. I am obviously far more familiar with the Sun Valley area than either you or your wife, as I am required to visit the area several times per month. Your generalized comments are overly broad and seem to be based on one mobile home in particular. While I agree that there are several neglected homes in Sun Valley, I don't believe you can judge an entire community based on the worst parts. For every run down, neglected home (without skirting), there is another well cared for home (with skirting). Instead of turning left on Second Avenue, why don't you turn right. Or go to 5th Avenue and turn right or left, or check out the new Boys and Girls Club Community Center.

I'm going with the majority here by believing that you are either a troll or out of your mind.

[Bob]

I, for one, see nothing wrong with the proposal, in the Burning Man sense. It's really no different from ravers requiring assistance with their particular addictions.

[Cabanasprings]

I, for one, see nothing wrong with the proposal, in the Burning Man sense. It's really no different from ravers requiring assistance with their particular addictions.

The difference is that "Ravers" can afford SKIRTS

[meandthemissus]

"Your generalized comments are overly broad and seem to be based on one mobile home in particular." This statement indicates a lack of critical reasoning skills, therefore the poster need not to have any further attention paid to it, I suggest re reading the post. I suggest also looking at the test scores of Sun Valley, Lois Allen, and Esther Bennett Schools compared to the rest of Reno. I suggest also that you examine the Washoe County Sheriffs Department Crime Statistics. I suggest also that you examine the Washoe County Social Services statistics if they are available. After you do this unwrap yourself from your rose colored cotton batting. Every statement I made is easily documented via public record and observation. Here is an idea, get your girlfriends and head down the the Sun Valley Bar this Friday or Saturday and visit with the locals.. Since you used the ad hominem attack: "out of your mind" You no longer have credibility, stick with Starbucks and golf courses and the rest of East Sparks Yuppie accoutrements . I have told you I work with this population, I could post report after report of what is essentially by any normal measure, horror stories. Your rose colored cotton batting would
prevent you from hearing or understanding.

Or....... You could jump in and help, be a chaperone, get your hands dirty.

[Cabanasprings]

"Your generalized comments are overly broad and seem to be based on one mobile home in particular."

Speaking of generalizing - who is "Your?"

[Guest]

In this case, however, I think energy and money would be better spent on programs that would benefit the entire community

Yeah - like SKIRTING

I prefer to go skirtless ...... and shirtless....

[Guest]

"Or....... You could jump in and help, be a chaperone, get your hands dirty.

I spend too much time being a chaperone to my beloved. Anyhoooo, Burningman is a vacation for me, not a charity event to babysit the underpriviledged. If they wanted to go to BM surely they would find a way. I did.

[Cabanasprings]

In this case, however, I think energy and money would be better spent on programs that would benefit the entire community

Yeah - like SKIRTING

I prefer to go skirtless ...... and shirtless....

My singlewide is always skirtless on the playa. Just the way I like it.

[MissNev]

"Your generalized comments are overly broad and seem to be based on one mobile home in particular."

Speaking of generalizing - who is "Your?"

The post was addressed to meandthemissus, the one who seems to be able to express himself in only generalized statements.

Starbucks? golf courses? East Sparks Yuppy?

again, out of your mind.

I don't go to the Sun Valley Bar (don't really hang out in any bars, even in Sparks), but I do go to breakfast at Hobies a couple of times per month.

[swampdog]

Ok, I'll play feed-the-troll

First, I'm a little puzzled by the dispute between M&M and MissNev over the level of poverty in Sun Valley. I'm sure there are some nicer areas, some fine people, and some really desperate areas with pretty scary people. I'm willing to stipulate (as my lawyer friends say) that there is at least some pocket of poverty as severe as M&M describes.

M&M, you've described the people you want to bring to BM as people who are prone to violence if not closely watched. That may not be what you intended, but that's what it reads like. You may not have read any of the threads about the guy who got beat up and his bike stolen and the outpouring of concern and support to him from the BM community. Why exactly do you think bringing people at risk for violence into BM is a good idea? If you think these people are not at risk for violence, why did you initially present it that way?

you said:

If with assistance they can remain reasonably sober and non violent

Also, my experience with people on the ragged edges is that they tend to be very shrewd at taking advantage of situations. You've read the stories about addicts who will tell any lie to get the next fix. I'm thinking that there's a class of desperate people who would see BM as a giant candy store.

So how do you plan to select the people who you think can benefit from this experience and not endanger my experience?

Finally, you seem determined to transform the whole community at one go. Given the risks and concerns expressed in this thread (by the people who take the risk of taking you seriously), you might want to start small - one or two, maybe three families that you think are particularly likely to benefit, people resources drawn from your "Sun Valley Residents Rescue Society", fund-raising as you can pull it off. Then if that works, you've got a basis to grow from and some real evidence to point to, not to mention a core of transformed individuals who can preach, support, and fundraise.

You stated in your initial post:

This will enable us and others to gage the response.

Got enough response yet to gauge?

[Rob the Wop]

Maybe I didn't spell it out enough, or folks haven't read the history on this board enough, to realize the proposal for what it is.

'meandthemissus' is a poster that has been around a while. His original handled was BlackRockRick and he was eventually kicked off the board for a veiled threat to another board member.

BRR is a 'skip tracer' (his words). He works as a bounty hunter basically. He finds escaped felons or those that skipped their bail. He lives in the ranges near Gerlock, with a view that allows him to see the playa.

He has repeatedly stated that he wants Burning Man to be moved somewhere else. He doesn't like the view of the playa during the month that BM is on the playa. While I can't verify his actions personally, he has made veiled references to a 'plan' to shut down Burnnig Man. Apparently, last year it didn't work.

His 'work' in Sun Valley is most likely hunting those felons that escaped bail/prison/jail. He has shown very, very little compassion for his 'clients'. They represent the scum of the earth to him, and he has elborated on this in many posts.

I personally am not the most PC, luvey dovey type in the world. I can't begrudge the man his desire to remove us tourists from his town. If I still lived in a small town, and 30,000 Dutch clog dancers came into my town for a week every year, I would probably want them to get the hell out too. Obviously I would have a different opinion if I was a clog dancer.

I also somewhat share his views on ex-cons. I made plenty of mistakes in my youth that eventually resulted in my incarceration. I have little pity for those that continue their criminal actions when they embark on adulthood- when they should clearly know better.

What this boils down to, is that he hopes that someone will take this bait and run with it. If he can get just 1,000 violent, drug addicted ex-cons into Burning Man- the event could easily disinegrate from within. Either by the police shutting it down, numerous lawsuits from assault, extremely bad media press, or deaths from overdose/homicide. Trust me, Burning Man will not magically change a career criminal's personality. For every one ex-con that 'gets it', there will be 200 that find the trusting nature of burners as easy pickings for drugs, assault, or theft.

Just my $.02. Read the posts by BRR and meandthemissus. You'll find the connection between the two easy enough, and realize the intent from BRR's posts.

[meandthemissus]

A. With SOG to assist there will be no problems.
B. Rob, that was bizarre,,, I live in Reno, work for a social welfare agency. I have attended Burningman, liked it when it was small,