WAR! What is it good for?

All things outside of Burning Man.
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Kinetic

Post by Kinetic » Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:53 pm

stuart scanlon wrote:
Any fool can drive fast...but to keep it under control is a different story.
especially for an f-body. Stop light drag racing is the only thing they are good for.
The thread has moved on...I can't discuss racing Roman chariots or go too medieval without tossing in one more F-Body post. I strongly disagree with you Stuart about stop light racing being all an F-Body is good for.

Having pushed one to 205 mph, confirmed by the MO Hwy Patrol using the stopwatch from an airplane method.....to being able to put that thing around corners that wrecked many who tried, I can make an F-Body come alive and very likely outperform most of the cars the kids race even now. I don't need computers, I do need turbos, no NOS, just proper preparation. I had almost 800 HP on tap in my last Firebird, and you might beat me on the quarter, but when the cops showed up my ride was the one you wanted to be in.

I don't drive like that anymore...I bought my 4x4 to slow my ass down. But when it comes to racing, street racing...been there, done that, got the scars and the extra parts to prove it. Street racing is a family tradition. My grandpa did it with a 32 Ford, my Dad did it with his 392 and 426 Hemis and I did it. I love those F-Bodies! If I have to go fast, that is my ride of choice.

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:06 pm

hey man, I grew up in detroit. Spent a lot of time in late 70s f-bodies. I respect the power you were able to get, but what the hell did you do to the suspension in order to get anything like decent cornering short of gutting the entire rear end?

I aint talkin about competing with fwd 4 banger rice rockets neither.

Kinetic

Post by Kinetic » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:19 pm

4 link. The rear suspension is where I sat back and watched and learned. I had both my dad and my grandfather in there working on that damn suspension, subframe connectors, rollcage...and that rollcage was a bitch to build, to get in and out of, and while I never needed it, I was glad to have it.

The HP numbers seem high but this is with Gale Banks and the Banks Engineering twin turbo setup with other tweaks. The block was your typical 4 Bolt, steel crank hand polished type job, we run Brodix aluminum heads that we did some hand polishing on, it was a combination of tricks, combined with the dual turbo. If I did it again I'd go single turbo...less hassle, spools much faster. The HP ratings were what we got on a dyno over in Lebanon, MO, it was owned by a circle track racer who had a local car dealership. I won't take credit for that car as a lot of people helped me build it and learn from it.

I didn't build it to drag race so I don't have time slips to scan for you...I built it to take me to Springfield and back...120 mile round trip and have fun while I was down there. It did that well. It also brought our family together...even my grandmother helped wax the thing. It was also painted with Imron....and if you know paint, you know about Imron back in the day.

Stuart, thanks for posting. You gave me a much needed diversion at a time I really needed it.

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nymphgonebad
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Post by nymphgonebad » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:48 pm

TestesInSac wrote:Ok, ok, Princess, you're right.

But lemme just bayonet that bloated sucker once, just to make sure.

Stand back, there might be a "rooster tail".
i'll just go stand downwind, if you don't mind.

be sure to take off all your clothes before you come in the house.

i'll be waiting in the shower......

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:51 pm

The Dance starts.

I wanna be there when the two of you meet face-to-face.

Big verbal discussions and meaty disagreements and then....

"Hey! Where'd those two go off to."

You heard it here first folks.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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nymphgonebad
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Post by nymphgonebad » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:52 pm

Badger wrote:
only thing up on blocks here is that sense of humor of yours, bro.
Hey you two! Don't make me stop this car...[/b]
now, wait a sec badger. this may be a great opportunity for us to turn the backseat into a safe sex art vehichle.

chinese firedrill!!!!!!!!!!

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nymphgonebad
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Post by nymphgonebad » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:54 pm

arnold just offered ariana huffington a part in terminator 4.

who wants to pitch in and buy her a flame thrower?

then we can watch her melt his face off.

Kinetic

Post by Kinetic » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:57 pm

A safe sex art vehicle.....giving out free condoms, dental dams, and lube to all who need it, crusing up and down the Esplanade all night long for your pleasure....

If you tried to put on any demonstrations the BLM would have a cow....so that's out.

Of course I'd have to add a detour by the adult theme camps...the org actually gave Kidsville a list of those camps so the parents / guardians could keep the kids away. It made for a nice list of places to go once the sun set!

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nymphgonebad
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Post by nymphgonebad » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:44 pm

Kinetic wrote:A safe sex art vehicle.....giving out free condoms, dental dams, and lube to all who need it, crusing up and down the Esplanade all night long for your pleasure....

If you tried to put on any demonstrations the BLM would have a cow....so that's out.

Of course I'd have to add a detour by the adult theme camps...the org actually gave Kidsville a list of those camps so the parents / guardians could keep the kids away. It made for a nice list of places to go once the sun set!
who's talking about demonstrations?

i was talking about pulling the car over to the side of the road and getting naked.

i say - fuck the masses!

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JezebelinHell
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Post by JezebelinHell » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:42 pm

But only if the masses are hot!
"The future is a whore, she promises herself to everyone."
--Poe

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nymphgonebad
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Post by nymphgonebad » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:14 pm

JezebelinHell wrote:But only if the masses are hot!
maybe later, doll.

right now i'm more interested in removing your underwear with my teeth.

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Post by lurker » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:17 am

ackk.

well, that was unexpected.

can I just rewind and get in on the car drift? the 'underwear/teeth thing looks interesting...

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Arnold Layne
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Post by Arnold Layne » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:47 am

Lean out your window, golden hair
I heard you singing in the midnight air
my book is closed, I read no more
watching the fire dance, on the floor
I've left my book, I've left my room

For I heard you singing through the gloom
singing and singing, a merry air
lean out of the window, golden hair

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Arnold Layne
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Post by Arnold Layne » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:54 am

Le singe balance dans des arbres de cocaïne.

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nymphgonebad
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Post by nymphgonebad » Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:01 am

Arnold Lane wrote:Le singe balance dans des arbres de cocaïne.
bon jour, arnold. como savat, baby?

i want to give you a big, fat, merci.

personally, i think we'd all be a lot less cranky with each other if we limited our discourse to song lyrics, sonnets, haikus, kick ass quotes, stupid jokes,
pet diary blogs, and burma shave signs.

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Arnold Layne
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Post by Arnold Layne » Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:56 am

Pour la princesse de l'esprit de l'homme qui a été laissé dehors sous la pluie

'Octopus'

Trip to heave and ho
Up down, to and fro
You have no word

Trip, trip to a dream dragon
Hide your wings in a ghost tower
Sails cackling at every plate we break

'S cracked by scattered needles
The little minute gong coughs and clears his throat
Madam you see before you stand
Hey ho, never be still
The old original favorite grand
Grasshopper's Green Herbarian Band
And the tune they play is "In Us Confide"

So trip to heave and ho
Up down, to and fro
You have no word

Please leave us here
Close our eyes to the octopus ride!

Isn't it good to be lost in the wood
Isn't it bad so quiet there
In the wood

Meant even less to me than I thought
With a honey flower yellow prickly seeds
Clover honey pots and mystic shining plead

Well the madcap laughs at the man on the border
Hey ho, huff the Talbot
"Cheat!" he cried, shouting "Kangaroo!"
So true in their tree, they cried
"Please leave us here"
"Close our eyes to the octopus ride!"

"Please leave us here"
"Close our eyes to the octopus ride!"

Well the madcap laughs at the man on the border
Hey ho, huff the Talbot
The winds they blew and the leaves did wag
They'll never put me in their bag
The seas will reach and always seep
As high you go, so low you creep
The wind it blows in tropical heat
The drones they throng on mossy seats
The squeaking door will always creak
Two up, two down we'll never meet
So merrily trip will go my side
Please leave us here
Close our eyes to the octopus ride!

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PJ
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Post by PJ » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:21 am

Chimp wrote:...My main bag regarding the current conflict is that we had, I think at least, moved on as a society after WW2 with the solid formation of the UN Security Council and the notion of taking multilateral action being set firmly in place. Point being that it set a precedent for reaching a global consensus on when there was a need for military intervention in a sovereign state ie: in the case of genocide. Now whatever you think of the previous regime in Iraq the problem with what the US and UK have done by acting unilaterally is that they have set in motion an opposing precedent that sets global society backwards...
Would Gulf War II have been OK in your opinion if it had gone down exactly as it did, but with the UN Security Council having blessed the action beforehand?

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nymphgonebad
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Post by nymphgonebad » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:27 am

Arnold Lane wrote:Pour la princesse de l'esprit de l'homme qui a été laissé dehors sous la pluie


'S cracked by scattered needles
The little minute gong coughs and clears his throat
Madam you see before you stand
Hey ho, never be still
The old original favorite grand
Grasshopper's Green Herbarian Band
And the tune they play is "In Us Confide"

i just downloaded that mp3.
i highly reccomend it.



Isn't it good to be lost in the wood
Isn't it bad so quiet there
In the wood

well it was until you ate the mushroom i was hiding under.

quel dommage.

Meant even less to me than I thought
now you're goin to have to buy me a drink.

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Arnold Layne
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Post by Arnold Layne » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:32 am

Attack
(from The Old Huntsman)

AT dawn the ridge emerges massed and dun
In the wild purple of the glow'ring sun,
Smouldering through spouts of drifting smoke that shroud
The menacing scarred slope; and, one by one,
Tanks creep and topple forward to the wire.
The barrage roars and lifts. Then, clumsily bowed
With bombs and guns and shovels and battle-gear,
Men jostle and climb to meet the bristling fire.
Lines of grey, muttering faces, masked with fear,
They leave their trenches, going over the top,
While time ticks blank and busy on their wrists,
And hope, with furtive eyes and grappling fists,
Flounders in mud. O Jesus, make it stop!

Siegfried Sassoon

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nymphgonebad
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Post by nymphgonebad » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:38 am

Arnold Lane wrote: grappling fists,
Flounders in mud. O Jesus, make it stop!


dude - i told you not to touch that.

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:16 am

4 link. The rear suspension is where I sat back and watched and learned. I had both my dad and my grandfather in there working on that damn suspension, subframe connectors,...
did you also do disc brake conversions?

man, you basically built a new car and slapped the old skin on it. Kewl. I bet the weight balance was still not so even though.

I never worked on/spectated anything so elaborate. Just your basic holly 700 type of upgrades to an olds 403. I just remember those types of cars wanting nothing to do but get sideways. Nowadays I am much more into small and tossable.

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Chimp
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Post by Chimp » Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:06 am

This War on Terrorism is Bogus, by Michael Meacher,
The Guardian

Massive attention has now been given - and rightly so - to the reasons why Britain went to war against Iraq. But far too little attention has focused on why the U.S. went to war, and that throws light on British motives too. The conventional explanation is that after the Twin Towers were hit, retaliation against al-Qaida bases in Afghanistan was a natural first step in launching a global war against terrorism. Then, because Saddam Hussein was alleged by the US and UK governments to retain weapons of mass destruction, the war could be extended to Iraq as well. However this theory does not fit all the facts. The truth may be a great deal murkier.

We now know that a blueprint for the creation of a global Pax Americana was drawn up for Dick Cheney (now vice-president), Donald Rumsfeld (defense secretary), Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy), Jeb Bush (George Bush's younger brother) and Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief of staff). The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defenses, was written in September 2000 by the neoconservative think tank, Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

The plan shows Bush's cabinet intended to take military control of the Gulf region whether or not Saddam Hussein was in power. It says "while the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

The PNAC blueprint supports an earlier document attributed to Wolfowitz and Libby which said the U.S. must "discourage advanced industrial nations from challenging our leadership or even aspiring to a larger regional or global role". It refers to key allies such as the UK as "the most effective and efficient means of exercising American global leadership". It describes peacekeeping missions as "demanding American political leadership rather than that of the UN". It says "even should Saddam pass from the scene", U.S. bases in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait will remain permanently... as "Iran may well prove as large a threat to U.S. interests as Iraq has". It spotlights China for "regime change", saying "it is time to increase the presence of American forces in SE Asia".

The document also calls for the creation of "U.S. space forces" to dominate space, and the total control of cyberspace to prevent "enemies" using the internet against the U.S. It also hints that the U.S. may consider developing biological weapons "that can target specific genotypes [and] may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool".

Finally - written a year before 9/11 - it pinpoints North Korea, Syria and Iran as dangerous regimes, and says their existence justifies the creation of a "worldwide command and control system". This is a blueprint for U.S. world domination. But before it is dismissed as an agenda for rightwing fantasists, it is clear it provides a much better explanation of what actually happened before, during and after 9/11 than the global war on terrorism thesis. This can be seen in several ways.

First, it is clear the U.S. authorities did little or nothing to pre-empt the events of 9/11. It is known that at least 11 countries provided advance warning to the U.S. of the 9/11 attacks. Two senior Mossad experts were sent to Washington in August 2001 to alert the CIA and FBI to a cell of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation (Daily Telegraph, September 16 2001). The list they provided included the names of four of the 9/11 hijackers, none of whom was arrested.

It had been known as early as 1996 that there were plans to hit Washington targets with airplanes. Then in 1999 a U.S. national intelligence council report noted that "al-Qaida suicide bombers could crash-land an aircraft packed with high explosives into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the CIA, or the White House".

Fifteen of the 9/11 hijackers obtained their visas in Saudi Arabia. Michael Springman, the former head of the American visa bureau in Jeddah, has stated that since 1987 the CIA had been illicitly issuing visas to unqualified applicants from the Middle East and bringing them to the US for training in terrorism for the Afghan war in collaboration with Bin Laden (BBC, November 6 2001). It seems this operation continued after the Afghan war for other purposes. It is also reported that five of the hijackers received training at secure U.S. military installations in the 1990s (Newsweek, September 15 2001).

Instructive leads prior to 9/11 were not followed up. French Moroccan flight student Zacarias Moussaoui (now thought to be the 20th hijacker) was arrested in August 2001 after an instructor reported he showed a suspicious interest in learning how to steer large airliners. When U.S. agents learned from French intelligence he had radical Islamist ties, they sought a warrant to search his computer, which contained clues to the September 11 mission (Times, November 3 2001). But they were turned down by the FBI. One agent wrote, a month before 9/11, that Moussaoui might be planning to crash into the Twin Towers (Newsweek, May 20 2002).

All of this makes it all the more astonishing - on the war on terrorism perspective - that there was such slow reaction on September 11 itself. The first hijacking was suspected at not later than 8.20am, and the last hijacked aircraft crashed in Pennsylvania at 10.06am. Not a single fighter plane was scrambled to investigate from the U.S. Andrews Air Force base, just 10 miles from Washington DC, until after the third plane had hit the Pentagon at 9.38 am. Why not? There were standard FAA intercept procedures for hijacked aircraft before 9/11. Between September 2000 and June 2001 the U.S. military launched fighter aircraft on 67 occasions to chase suspicious aircraft (AP, August 13 2002). It is a U.S. legal requirement that once an aircraft has moved significantly off its flight plan, fighter planes are sent up to investigate.

Was this inaction simply the result of key people disregarding, or being ignorant of, the evidence? The former U.S. federal crimes prosecutor, John Loftus, has said: "The information provided by European intelligence services prior to 9/11 was so extensive that it is no longer possible for either the CIA or FBI to assert a defense of incompetence."

Nor is the U.S. response after 9/11 any better. No serious attempt has ever been made to catch Bin Laden. In late September and early October 2001, leaders of Pakistan's two Islamist parties negotiated Bin Laden's extradition to Pakistan to stand trial for 9/11. However, a U.S. official said, significantly, that "casting our objectives too narrowly" risked "a premature collapse of the international effort if by some lucky chance Mr Bin Laden was captured". The U.S. chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, General Myers, went so far as to say that "the goal has never been to get Bin Laden" (AP, April 5 2002). The whistleblowing FBI agent Robert Wright told ABC News (December 19 2002) that FBI headquarters wanted no arrests. And in November 2001 the U.S. air force complained it had had al-Qaida and Taliban leaders in its sights as many as 10 times over the previous six weeks, but had been unable to attack because they did not receive permission quickly enough (Time Magazine, May 13 2002). None of this assembled evidence, all of which comes from sources already in the public domain, is compatible with the idea of a real, determined war on terrorism.

The catalogue of evidence does, however, fall into place when set against the PNAC blueprint. From this it seems that the so-called "war on terrorism" is being used largely as bogus cover for achieving wider U.S. strategic geopolitical objectives. Indeed Tony Blair himself hinted at this when he said to the Commons liaison committee: "To be truthful about it, there was no way we could have got the public consent to have suddenly launched a campaign on Afghanistan but for what happened on September 11" (Times, July 17 2002). Similarly Rumsfeld was so determined to obtain a rationale for an attack on Iraq that on 10 separate occasions he asked the CIA to find evidence linking Iraq to 9/11; the CIA repeatedly came back empty-handed (Time Magazine, May 13 2002).

In fact, 9/11 offered an extremely convenient pretext to put the PNAC plan into action. The evidence again is quite clear that plans for military action against Afghanistan and Iraq were in hand well before 9/11. A report prepared for the U.S. government from the Baker Institute of Public Policy stated in April 2001 that "the U.S. remains a prisoner of its energy dilemma. Iraq remains a destabilizing influence to... the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East". Submitted to Vice-President Cheney's energy task group, the report recommended that because this was an unacceptable risk to the U.S., "military intervention" was necessary (Sunday Herald, October 6 2002).

Similar evidence exists in regard to Afghanistan. The BBC reported (September 18 2001) that Niaz Niak, a former Pakistan foreign secretary, was told by senior American officials at a meeting in Berlin in mid-July 2001 that "military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October". Until July 2001 the U.S. government saw the Taliban regime as a source of stability in Central Asia that would enable the construction of hydrocarbon pipelines from the oil and gas fields in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, through Afghanistan and Pakistan, to the Indian Ocean. But, confronted with the Taliban's refusal to accept U.S. conditions, the U.S. representatives told them "either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs" (Inter Press Service, November 15 2001).

Given this background, it is not surprising that some have seen the U.S. failure to avert the 9/11 attacks as creating an invaluable pretext for attacking Afghanistan in a war that had clearly already been well planned in advance. There is a possible precedent for this. The U.S. national archives reveal that President Roosevelt used exactly this approach in relation to Pearl Harbor on December 7 1941. Some advance warning of the attacks was received, but the information never reached the U.S. fleet. The ensuing national outrage persuaded a reluctant U.S. public to join the second world war. Similarly the PNAC blueprint of September 2000 states that the process of transforming the U.S. into "tomorrow's dominant force" is likely to be a long one in the absence of "some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor". The 9/11 attacks allowed the U.S. to press the "go" button for a strategy in accordance with the PNAC agenda which it would otherwise have been politically impossible to implement.

The overriding motivation for this political smokescreen is that the U.S. and the UK are beginning to run out of secure hydrocarbon energy supplies. By 2010 the Muslim world will control as much as 60% of the world's oil production and, even more importantly, 95% of remaining global oil export capacity. As demand is increasing, so supply is decreasing, continually since the 1960s.

This is leading to increasing dependence on foreign oil supplies for both the U.S. and the UK. The U.S., which in 1990 produced domestically 57% of its total energy demand, is predicted to produce only 39% of its needs by 2010. A DTI minister has admitted that the UK could be facing "severe" gas shortages by 2005. The UK government has confirmed that 70% of our electricity will come from gas by 2020, and 90% of that will be imported. In that context it should be noted that Iraq has 110 trillion cubic feet of gas reserves in addition to its oil.

A report from the commission on America's national interests in July 2000 noted that the most promising new source of world supplies was the Caspian region, and this would relieve US dependence on Saudi Arabia. To diversify supply routes from the Caspian, one pipeline would run westward via Azerbaijan and Georgia to the Turkish port of Ceyhan. Another would extend eastwards through Afghanistan and Pakistan and terminate near the Indian border. This would rescue Enron's beleaguered power plant at Dabhol on India's west coast, in which Enron had sunk $3bn investment and whose economic survival was dependent on access to cheap gas.

Nor has the UK been disinterested in this scramble for the remaining world supplies of hydrocarbons, and this may partly explain British participation in U.S. military actions. Lord Browne, chief executive of BP, warned Washington not to carve up Iraq for its own oil companies in the aftermath of war (Guardian, October 30 2002). And when a British foreign minister met Gadaffi in his desert tent in August 2002, it was said that "the UK does not want to lose out to other European nations already jostling for advantage when it comes to potentially lucrative oil contracts" with Libya (BBC Online, August 10 2002).

The conclusion of all this analysis must surely be that the "global war on terrorism" has the hallmarks of a political myth propagated to pave the way for a wholly different agenda - the U.S. goal of world hegemony, built around securing by force command over the oil supplies required to drive the whole project. Is collusion in this myth and junior participation in this project really a proper aspiration for British foreign policy? If there was ever need to justify a more objective British stance, driven by our own independent goals, this whole depressing saga surely provides all the evidence needed for a radical change of course.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An interesting viewpoint, not one I concur with wholly but one that I think it is important to air.

If the whole PNAC issue is new to you and whether you think this is all total bullshit or not do me a favour and argue against it or about it and don't just take potshots at the messenger.

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PJ
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Post by PJ » Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:34 am

Chimp wrote:...while the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein...
Note that some US military expenditures in the Gulf region have already, in fact, decreased. Because of the overthrow of the Hussein regime, for the first time in decades it's believed that it's no longer necessary to maintain a carrier task force to protect US interests in the Gulf. That in itself saves nearly a billion dollars per year.

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Post by Patience » Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:06 am

What Is the War Going to Cost Us?

By Bob Burnett, AlterNet
May 2, 2003

Before launching the war in Iraq the Bush Administration was, to say the least, circumspect about the projected cost. After the bombs began to fall they announced that our initial tab would be $75 billion. But these expenditures are just the first installment; they do not include reconstruction of the Iraqi infrastructure or that illusory concept, nation-building. Thus the billion-dollar question remains how much will George and Donald's big adventure cost us?


In December, Yale economist William Nordhaus, writing in The New York Review of Books, described an analytical framework for calculating the cost of this war. Nordhaus considered two general categories of costs: direct military spending such as the salaries of troops and the costs of their weapons, and follow-on costs. In the latter category he included "occupation and peacekeeping", "reconstruction and nation-building", "humanitarian assistance", "impact on the oil markets", and a catch all category "macroeconomic impact" – that is, what impact a scenario would have on the U.S. economy in general (for example, a protracted war could possibly trigger a recession).


The Yale economist used his framework to prepare a low-end war-cost estimate of $121 billion and a high-end estimate of $1.595 trillion. Each extreme was the result of a specific scenario: the low estimate assumed a short war with no complications, whereas $1.6 trillion would be the result of a protracted war with many complications.


Mercifully, it appears that major combat in Iraq has ended after roughly six weeks. Thus, the Nordhaus' more favorable estimates are the ones that should be considered first – those that put the cost of the war in the $121 billion range. Nordhaus comes up with an estimate of $50 billion for the direct military expenditures associated with a short war, which should be accurate if there are no unanticipated military "problems" – such as an invasion of Syria or an extended Intifada-type campaign which ties of tens of thousands of troops.


Nordhaus estimates the total cost of the occupation as $75 to $500 billion over ten years. Since it appears only United States and British forces will be involved in peacekeeping, the true cost to the United States is likely to be in the mid-range – $30 billion per year. He estimates that reconstruction of the Iraqi infrastructure will cost from $25 to $100 billion and the Council on Foreign Relations predicts that this will cost $20 billion per year.


As the Iraqi petroleum industry comes to life, some of the funds generated from petroleum exports could go towards reconstruction; the yearly value of these exports will be in the $15-20 billion range but it will be several years before they reach that level. Thus, in the first five years, the U.S. yearly cost for reconstruction will likely be at least $20 billion per year. (This, of course, assumes that the U.S. will actually pay for this; so far the Bush administration indicates that American taxpayers will foot his bill, as they regard Iraqi reconstruction as an opportunity to funnel money to some of their largest contributors, such as the Bechtel Corporation.)


The United Nations and international relief agencies will probably provide humanitarian assistance, so our costs here may be as low as $1 billion. Because most of Iraq's oil infrastructure is intact, Nordhaus predicts a reduction in world oil prices and, thereby, a positive benefit to the U.S. economy of $3 billion per year. With regard to "macroeconomic" effects, since this has been a short war there is unlikely to be any disruption of the economy.


The combination of all these factors results in a projected cost of $286 billion over five years (with roughly $100 billion expended in the first twelve months). These figures are consistent with other estimates. In April, UC Berkeley economics professor, and former chair of the president's council of Economic Advisors, Janet Yellen estimated that the direct costs of the war were likely to be in the "$100-150 billion range" and the total cost approximately "$500 billion over the next decade."
*************************************************************

In general, I'm reluctant to focus on economics when discussing the war on Iraq, because it's just not the point. The point, I think, is the tens of thousands of lives destroyed by an unnecessary, unprovoked, unilateral and therefore illegal war initiated by the administration of this country against a vastly militarily inferior nation, under the auspices of liberation and the protection of democracy.

I know, that was a really long sentence. I apologize.

However, to suggest that the truly enormous economic cost of this war might be offset by saving a billion dollars on some carriers is misleading. I know that you said "some" military expenditures, which is technically true. But, considering the amount of money we are talking about, it is also insignificant.
It's not that I hate you. It's just that I'm a much better person than you.

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Post by Chimp » Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:10 am

PJ

Please try to realise that all this 'Chimp wrote' stuff is pointless, taken out of the context of the article two or three lines can be used to substantiate any argument - and yes I don't think the authour of that particular piece would in any way disagree with you, I am sure his point is that the US wants to save money. Well done.

BTW

Did you skim read that feature because I really think you have taken this point sideways - what do you think of what he is saying about PNAC and the administration's fully laid out agenda, what do you think of his point here that PNAC stated that to get into the gulf and stay there 'transcended' the Saddam regime - that the intention was to get in there all along even if Iraq were a democratic nation under a different regime. What do you think about what it says about oil and American interests? Engage with the issues.

Also - I posted it, not wrote it.

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Post by Chimp » Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:18 am

"The point, I think, is the tens of thousands of lives destroyed by an unnecessary, unprovoked, unilateral and therefore illegal war initiated by the administration of this country against a vastly militarily inferior nation, under the auspices of liberation and the protection of democracy."

I second that entirely Patience,

Yes.

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Post by TestesInSac » Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:56 am

Patience wrote: In general, I'm reluctant to focus on economics when discussing the war on Iraq, because it's just not the point.
Why not? That the leadership of the US has a fiduciary responsibility to its electorate is unassailable. The degree of responsibility to the rest of the world is, on the other hand, debatable. I am not my brother's keeper, and the US is not the policeman of the world, it is not solely responsible for removing every tyrannical lunatic that springs up from office. That argument ultimately played a key role in my opposition to intervention.
Patience wrote:The point, I think, is the tens of thousands of lives destroyed by an unnecessary, unprovoked, unilateral and therefore illegal war initiated by the administration...
Irrelevant. That was just Uday and Qusay warming up for an evening on the town.
Patience wrote:...of this country against a vastly militarily inferior nation, under the auspices of liberation and the protection of democracy.
It's strange. When the initial invasion seemed to get bogged down, the screams were that we'd underestimated them. Now, our success results in screams of bully. It all still cost too goddamned much.
Patience wrote:I know, that was a really long sentence. I apologize.
<b>Your</b> text is worthwhile reading, no apology necessary.
Patience wrote:However, to suggest that the truly enormous economic cost of this war might be offset by saving a billion dollars on some carriers is misleading. I know that you said "some" military expenditures, which is technically true. But, considering the amount of money we are talking about, it is also insignificant.
Likewise, to suggest that the base salaries of regular GIs or munitions that would ultimately only rot otherwise is a cost of this war is also misleading. To wit, the average GI costs more that $50k if he's sitting on his rear at camp. With 250k pairs of boots on the ground, that's at least $12.5 <b>billion</b> that would have been spent anyway. Many of the Tomahawks used in this engagement were already scheduled for replacement, at more than $1 million apiece. A similar, if smaller number, applies to the JDAMs. Figure on more than 15,000 units used, and you have as least $15 billion there. And there are more elements to this war's budget that are similarly debatable.

I, personally, find myself in the curious position of resenting our involvement in Iraq, but equally resenting the emotional and usually disingenuous diatribes hurled (vomit pun intended) against all, like myself, who are not ready to actively protest in the streets. I also think it's time now to do what we can to help rebuild Iraq, and dispense with some of the petty personal politics this world seems possessed of.
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Post by blyslv » Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:26 am

TestesInSac wrote:
Chimp wrote:I have had a certain amount of shock and awe to come to terms with regarding how far to the right people can be, even in this open forum called eplaya.
Nature values heterogeneity as a source of strength, and you claim to value nature. Yet, you seem not to particularly value opposing points of view, often brushing them off with something that resembles disdain ("Don't let me rain on your parade.", etc).

I contend that those opposing points of view constitute the heterogeneity in the aggregate "burner" POV, and that they are a key strength of the event. In fact, if your POV were ever entirely to prevail, at the expense of all others, the end of the event itself would be quite near indeed.
BRAVO you libertarian fuckstick, couldn't have said it better myself. If the "law is an ass" politics is a jackalope.

And BTW I meant lib. fs. in all jockularity, but i don't want to use an emoticon because every single last one scares the shit out of me.
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Post by stuart » Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:33 am

I also think it's time now to do what we can to help rebuild Iraq, and dispense with some of the petty personal politics this world seems possessed of.
best of fucking luck there.

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Post by stuart » Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:35 am

chimp,

re: the article

fwiw, this was all predicted by chomsky several years ago. If articles like the above resonate with you, I suggest you go to the source.

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