Is Burning Man a democracy?

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:07 pm

How much control do we, as participants, have over what goes on at Burning Man? For example, there are some things that happen at Burning Man that I think are useless and/or wasteful and/or ill-advised. The decisions by the LLC affect us as participants both in the intangible "feel" of Burning Man and in tangible ways (such as ticket prices which are affected by what the LLC decides to pay for).

I'm not bitching. But I am concerned from having attended five times that Burning Man might be changing from a big group of participants with some making decisions for all to a group that makes decisions for everyone else and a separate group of attendees/participants. I'm also concerned that the LLC might be trying to do too much and that the more the LLC tries to do, the less the participants will try to do (kinda like when the government does things, people start relying on the government instead of doing things themselves).

So...

Who makes those decisions? How do they get to be in a position to make those decisions? Since there is evidently no "voting" on these decisions, how much input do we have as participants and what's the best way to effect change?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:16 pm

Although I've never tracked down the original work, in Guns, Germs and Steel Jared Diamond refers to some one who's studied how as a sociaty gets bigger the meathods of social control move from a sort of gossip/everyone internalizes the proper meathods of behavior towards police as enforcers of law. Also look at the Tipping Point and other works that talk about ~200 people as being the largest size that can work together effectively without structure/hierachy.

Your choices. Accept BM as Larry's party/(benevolent or not)dictatorship/oligarghy.
Get involved in the regionals.
Agitate and spend a lot of time and effort trying to change things that TPTB like as is.
Assimulate into Borg2.

IMHO

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:21 pm

Is burning man a democracy?

no.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:28 pm

as a sociaty gets bigger the meathods of social control move from a sort of gossip/everyone internalizes the proper meathods of behavior towards police as enforcers of law.

Yeah, this is one of the types of things I'm worried about.

Get involved in the regionals.

What bothers me about this is that then you have a bunch sub-groups within a group. Is it better or worse in general that people go to Burning Man with a focus on their camp/group instead of on the event at large?

Janka · Post by **Janka** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:45 pm

I think it is better, as long as the camps can coexist in peace and freely visit at each other, and are allowed as much freedom as is ever possible.

I think much of the "original spirit" as I understand it is preserved in that. Not that I would have ever seen it actually, since last year was my first time ever... but from what I hear I think it still is there. I actually liked the atmosphere of different camps working at their own things, but side by side. Kind of like a gathering of tribes, instead of a tribe. Tribes friendly with each other, but with varying and occasionally bizarre customs. :)

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:55 pm

I think it's sort of pathetic to wish you were 15 years ago. Your life then was your life then. Your life now is your life now. If you want to have what was BM then the regionals are probably your best bet as they are happening in a manner more like the original burns. Or find some other new event. What's happening on the playa now, is what it is. Take it or leave it.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:56 pm

On the other hand, I'm pretty clear that 15 years ago, I was in no condition t attend the burn. Maybe because I did do a few Caco events and heard of others, I'm at peace that I didn't miss something too important. The stories of early burns have this unbearable macho flavor to me. YMMV

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:33 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:I think it's sort of pathetic to wish you were 15 years ago. Your life then was your life then. Your life now is your life now. If you want to have what was BM then the regionals are probably your best bet as they are happening in a manner more like the original burns. Or find some other new event. What's happening on the playa now, is what it is. Take it or leave it.

Like I said -- I'm NOT bitching. The question is: If you think something should be changed, how does the average participant go about effecting that change? Or are we past that point? Is the LLC listening? If so, who and how? Not trying to go backwards, either -- more interested in the future and how WE (participants) can make it what we (participants) want it to be.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:37 pm

I'm not sure that the LLC listens. My guess is that they do listen to active volenteers who have proven themselves--to some extent. I think that the LLC is doing what it want's to do and that in certain ways things are more shaped by the outside pressures than upwards pressures. I would also say that there is a certain amount of freedom to do what you want, within the guidelines. My gut feeling is that the yahoo element is here to stay, simply because of the size of the event, and that that puts a limit on any reform.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:42 pm

I think that some of what happens here is filtered up (though not much). Town hall meetings are another way. Volunteering is probably another way. Obviously the whole BORG2 movement is based on the same feelings that you are expressing. I don't have an answer as to how one participant can make a change in the event. And given the size of the event it will take significant effort by any one individual to make change occur unless that individual has access to the right people.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:47 pm

http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/

Per the website and the sign you go past after the gate it's not a Democracy, it's a Republic!

The infrastructure of Black Rock City is literally alive with human effort, and all of it is volunteered by those who have a passion for the Public Thing — Res Publica, as the Romans once called it. Welcome to Black Rock City, Republic of Burning Man.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:13 pm

sputnik wrote:I think that some of what happens here is filtered up (though not much). Town hall meetings are another way. Volunteering is probably another way. Obviously the whole BORG2 movement is based on the same feelings that you are expressing. I don't have an answer as to how one participant can make a change in the event. And given the size of the event it will take significant effort by any one individual to make change occur unless that individual has access to the right people.

Well, not just one participant. More like participants agreeing that this or that should change or should not change, etc.

What is BORG2? I'm not familiar with that term (yet).

I wish I *could* volunteer (offsite) and could go to the town hall meetings. But not all of us are in northern California...

Hmmm...trying not to give up on thinking that we participants do have some input into how things go.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:31 pm

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:51 pm

Like I said -- I'm NOT bitching. The question is: If you think something should be changed, how does the average participant go about effecting that change?

Well, I think the best way to go about changing something is to just start doing it.

I believe that selling Chai in Center Camp is wrong. In my opinion it violates the "no commerce" rule that the LLC has created for the community. So I give out chai for free to people all week in an effort to show that the community can provide chai for itself.

We also stage a "Free Chai" protest at noon on Friday right in front of the cafe.

In other words, be the change you want to be

Wind_Borne · Post by **Wind_Borne** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:06 pm

Burning Man certainly is not a democracy, nor a republic. It's a privately held company. It would be more democratic in structure if it were a publicly held company: then we could all buy shares and vote on matters of governance. As it is, we rely on the benevolence of a few key people to act in the best interests of the community.

That's not necessarily bad. BMOrg, like all companies, has a vested interest in its own survival, which means pleasing its customers (the participants). If BMOrg fails to deliver a quality product (the Burn) at a reasonable price, they will loose customers and eventually go out of business.

I see some apt observations above about the evolution of communities and organizations. Burning Man is no more immune to those effects than the Tech Boom represented a New Economy. It's the cycle of life: something is born, it grows with vitality, reaches its prime, then ossifies, decays, and dies. And something new is born.

Michael Crichton argues in State of Fear that all organizations, even ones formed for benevolent purposes, eventually become more concerned about the existence of the organization than the goal that inspired the organization. Regardless of how you feel about his politics, he is right about that. He suggests that all benevolent organizations set a finite life limit at inception. That way the organization would focus its energy on achieving its goal before time ran out, just as each of us must do within our own lives.

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:48 pm

Chai Guy wrote:

I believe that selling Chai in Center Camp is wrong. In my opinion it violates the "no commerce" rule that the LLC has created for the community. So I give out chai for free to people all week in an effort to show that the community can provide chai for itself.

I agree about the Chai, and I think that prohibiting commerce *except* for the local company store (coffeehouse) is nothing short of monopolization, and draws from the self-sufficiency rule... however...

Then we get to Ice. Ice is not a luxury commodity - you need to keep stuff cold to keep it edible (or drinkable), need it for doing emergency cool downs. And the stated return of the profits to the communities of Empire and Gerlach is a plus (and it's what makes that palatable, IMO), and makes sense, but the Chai/Coffee house is blatant commercialism for the benefit of the "company", pure and simple. Face it - you can't brew your own coffee/make your own chai? FOR $3 A CUP?? Damn 'spensive cup'o'chai!!!

The coffee house in CC, as nice and convenient as it is, is a violation of the rules they set forth, and a blatant one. Sure, it pulls people where they want more people (CC) but, seriously - is it a *necessity* (like ice) or is it a *non-necessity* (like Tee shirts for the masses)? Or is it a way to steer the masses, like sheep, to the gates?

Next you'll see a Black and grey water dump and grey water recharge service for a fee (Wait... um,,, it's there, too!!!), so why not an "emergency essentials" store, then a breakfast kitchen where you buy a ticket and get a meal, then a trinket and general store... It's a slippery slope, and the coffee tent at CC is what started it.

Here's the radical plan.., MAKE THE COFFEE HUT AT CC PART OF THE GIFT ECONOMY, just like what we all have to do. Can't be done? Who says? Maybe if BM can't afford to gift it, then maybe, just maybe, it shouldn't be there. Or maybe REMSA should be charging actual costs + their profit margin to the PATIENTS whose butts they save? Rangers can charge for any and all responses... And let's not forget the Porta Potty Mag-cards...

Just my thought... what they do or don't is up to them (after all, it's *their* party, fer chrisesakes!~!) and it won't stop me from going *or* volunteering... I just think that the itmes they sell should be *survival*, not *comfort* oriented, and that which is comfort oriented should be charged exactly what we can charge for such things... Free.

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:04 pm

Wow, what a drift... let me try to corral it a bit...

No, it's not a democracy, it's a business. Whether I agree with it's decisions or not (such as to kill off the BRG or sell Coffee or whatever!) is, frankly, irrelevant. It's like me not agreeing with my bosses' decisions. For this is, first and foremost, a business - it's here to (1) stay afloat, and (2) generate a profitable venture for the employees and leadership.

That's just flat reality, and business sense. Put it this way - if you had this thing which ended up being your life blood and full time occupation, would you want to work for nothing? I think not. And if it was *your* business, would you want control over it or would you give everyone a say in it, whether they were brilliant economists or flat idiots? Not likely.

They're running a business. Again, I may not agree with some decisions (because I'm not at a position to understand why those decisions are being made)... but that's not my place nor my job. THEY give the direction, I do my part (as does everyone, BRC employee or Participant) and the thing happens. And because I don't have the headaches I have had with other orgs, I get to have fun. Sure... I could do more (and maybe someday I will) but for now, I have my 9 to 5 and I have fun and little stress and worry - and to be able to do that, and let someone else make the decisions and have the hedaches (for a change) sure feels nice!!! (Plus I don't have to wear renfaire garb in 100+ degree weather unless I want to!!)

Just remember this... it's not you in the driver's seat, so sit back and enjoy the ride!!!

Hugz,
BBS
Gettin' politically reactive!

Janka · Post by **Janka** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:07 am

In fact, ice is a luxury commodity. We had all our foods last year chosen and packed so that we could have managed without ice - all we used the ice for really was keeping beer cold. I admit I felt a little bad buying it for that purpose alone, but I did it anyway.

Agree on the coffee sales, definitely, though. They should definitely go. A coffee room is something one should easily be able to do as a gift to the community, and is being done like that all the time, so allowing some people to sell it is stupid.

Chai Guy, would you let me help with those demonstrations? And who can we tell of our bad feelings about it? Would it help if we collected names in support of ending chai vending on the playa as part of the demonstration? (Or you did, if you don't want any more help :))

Or, I wonder, could it be possible to volunteer to do the Center Camp Cafe as a gift, like other coffee rooms around the playa run? I don't think I could do the organization and logistics, but I could bring my share of tea and/or stand behind the counter. Or are the volumes just too big... what about doing one day for free? (Bad me for throwing ideas I won't do myself.)

---

Next, I am going to preach a little. This is a pet peeve of mine from other organizations and events, so bear with me, or ignore it if you wish. :)

When it comes to democracy - I don't want BRC to be a democracy, thank you. Democracy is all fine for running countries and stuff (at least I have yet to come up with a better plan), but for running events a model where those who do a thing decide how the thing is done works, in my experience, better. (Of course, they can ask for ideas and opinions, but please, no votes.)

The only problem with that model comes if it is very difficult to do your own thing, or to get involved in doing things, because of excess control. I doubt this is the case in BM - in my experience, it is rarely the case in any event, even when participants might feel that it is.

Most often, it is just a feeling, and you can get involved by volunteering and getting to know people and so on, and will be welcomed if you do. The real problems start to arise when people start to be so distanced from the main organization that they do not want to volunteer to change things, because they see the organization as an establishment that owes them something, like doing cerrtain things like the "audience" wishes, instead of like those who actually do them wish. If the drift is allowed to grow too big, the participatory nature of the event collapses, and it becomes an event organized by some people for some other people.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, always - I've seen other events and societies go through this and come out stronger, if different. But it does change the nature of the event, and in the case of BM, where there is supposed to be no "audience" in the first place, the change would be radical. And (now to my point), if it needs to be fixed, it is not the organization's responsibility alone to mend that drift, it is the responsibility of every participant. If you want the organization to support you, you have to support them - not their every decision, of course, like they don't have to love every idea of yours, but them as people and as participants.

I am not saying this is what is happening with BM right now - last year was, as I have said, my first burn, so I could never know what is really happening in the BMorg, and I did not see anything pointing to this kind of trouble on the playa. But I have seen this happen elsewhere couple of times now, and the symptoms are definitely here in some ePlaya posts.

Post by **actiongrl** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:01 am

Great discussion, gang. Just one clarifying point: the construction of the giant structure that is the Center Camp, which provides a public space for thousands upon thousands of visitors to enjoy, gets its budget from the sale of coffee.

Not to squelch the entire discussion...this is interesting stuff. And FWIW I do not think of Burning Man as a democracy, and in fact I have an inherent mistrust of democracy in a lot of ways. But it's true the organization exists to keep the event alive, and does have a vested interest in providing what participants desire out of it, which is why we have multiple mechanisms for feedback and new ideas (from this BBS to the Census to questions@ and complaints@ and jackrabbitspeaks@ and [email protected] all the one to one conversation we have with those around us.) I'd offer that that vested interest is beyond mere financial concern - I don't mean to whinge, but we are, in fact, members of the community as well as organizers....I love this thing and I love the friends I have within it and the amazing things I have seen people do together at Burning Man, and the spot in my heart that struggles to keep that alive is where my "vested interest" lives.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:19 am

Is Burning Man a Democracy?
------------------------------------------------

de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s) n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies

1) Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2) A political or social unit that has such a government.
3) The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4) Majority rule.
5) The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

....maybe defintion #5 would apply, but the rest definately do not.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:31 am

Is Burning Man a Republic?

Main Entry: re·pub·lic
Pronunciation: ri-'p&-blik
Function: noun
Etymology: French république, from Middle French republique, from Latin respublica, from res thing, wealth + publica, feminine of publicus public -- more at REAL, PUBLIC
1 a (1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government c : a usually specified republican government of a political unit <the French Fourth Republic>
2 : a body of persons freely engaged in a specified activity <the republic of letters>
3 : a constituent political and territorial unit of the former nations of Czechoslovakia, the U.S.S.R., or Yugoslavia

I'd say #2 applies. So it's not really a democracy or a republic either....hmmmm.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:45 am

There is no hmmmm kinetic. It is what it is. A Limited Liability Corporation. It is neither a democracy nor a republic.

However, within the various camps that comprise the city I would suggest that nearly every form of government exists. Some camps are totalitarian regimes, some are anarchistic and others are democracies. And every flavor between and around too.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:36 am

The real problems start to arise when people start to be so distanced from the main organization that they do not want to volunteer to change things, because they see the organization as an establishment that owes them something, like doing cerrtain things like the "audience" wishes, instead of like those who actually do them wish. If the drift is allowed to grow too big, the participatory nature of the event collapses, and it becomes an event organized by some people for some other people.

Yes. That feeling AND the feeling that "it's being taken care of" or "someone is making the right decisions for the community already and surely they know what they know what's best". Still, sometimes I see things going on that are "official" and I wonder "why is this like this and how can it be changed"? I don't mean nit-picky things, I mean things that are significant to everyone who attends.

I probably wouldn't feel this way if I did live in northern CA and actually could volunteer and have input (no matter how small). So, in the meantime, I guess I'll use those emails and hope that a voice here or on the mailing lists will be heard.

Oh, and, to the people who do make the decisions -- thanks for helping to make it happen at all. I'm thankful for that.

Janka · Post by **Janka** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:12 pm

Just one clarifying point: the construction of the giant structure that is the Center Camp, which provides a public space for thousands upon thousands of visitors to enjoy, gets its budget from the sale of coffee.

Yes. But the question is, if the people behind Center Camp are allowed to sell coffee to cover the construction of a cool giant structre at the event, what does that make the "no commerce" policy? I realize Center Camp is cool and the, well, center, but still I am uncomfortable about the fact that there is one structure that has a special privilege to sell stuff in the event, just because they are big and cool and centerish. YMMV, of course, and this is by no means a key issue for me. It's just kind of funny and seems to go directly agains the "everyone's a participant" and "no commerce" ideals.

Or maybe it is that some people are more participant than others. ;)

Yes. That feeling AND the feeling that "it's being taken care of" or "someone is making the right decisions for the community already and surely they know what they know what's best".

Yes, a good point. That's an important part of the being distanced from the main organization. Also starting to think that an abstract organization takes care of things and does decisions, instead of people in that organization.

hoochie mama · Post by **hoochie mama** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:24 pm

This is my very first post so please please please be gentle with me.

I just want to point out that you don't have to live in Northern California to volunteer. I live in Nova Scotia for god's sake, (east coast of Canada for those wobbly on their geography) and have been a volunteer onplaya for two years (Lamplighter Village), and now work behind the scenes all year as both a member of Lamplighter Council and a Lamplighter Volunteer Coordinator.

The only hard part of volunteering this from distance is staying awake for the monthly teleconference ( it happens on Pacific time). Well that and knowing that I'm missing all the parties. Everything else I do for them can be done from behind this terminal, on my time, in my time zone. So you can be a very active part of this if you choose to. Get involved.

Oh, and Tears does exist. She's one of us.

Hoochie Mama.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:31 pm

joel the ornery wrote:Is burning man a democracy?

no.

and....

why does anyone care?

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:50 pm

actiongrl wrote:Great discussion, gang. Just one clarifying point: the construction of the giant structure that is the Center Camp, which provides a public space for thousands upon thousands of visitors to enjoy, gets its budget from the sale of coffee.
.

Perhaps if noone is willing to gift it, it should not be done. The connection between coffee and a center camp structure is not clear, and asking people to subsidize the center camp in an indirect way is borderline decpetive. I think it is the hypocrisy of "banning" commerce while engaging in it is the thing that undermines The Event the most.

btw, BM is NOT a democracy, nor should it be.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:13 pm

Hypocrisy Is part of being a grown up it always has been and always will be. individuals form together into communities champing freedom and by doing so give up some personal freedom to the rule of law determined by the community. The idea of mutual defense of a peaceful life style amounting to being willing to kill to be peaceful. and so on. Life is not black and white wholly good or bad and to see it that way distorts the true nature of things. As for no commerce I do enjoy the non-commercial aspect of the event but it's not the reason I've gone. There is nothing about the event that in reality is anti-capitalistic, and it in fact has prompted me to spend thousands of dollars I wouldn't have otherwise so I have never seen what the big deal is about coffee sales.

bullD · Post by **bullD** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:22 pm

actiongrl wrote:I don't mean to whinge, but we are, in fact, members of the community as well as organizers....I love this thing and I love the friends I have within it and the amazing things I have seen people do together at Burning Man, and the spot in my heart that struggles to keep that alive is where my "vested interest" lives.

joel the ornery wrote:
joel the ornery wrote:Is burning man a democracy?

no.
and....

why does anyone care?

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:41 pm

First of all, I was just using my Free Chai Revolution as an example of what you could do possibly try to illicit change within the LLC. but since a few points were brought up I would like to address them:

the construction of the giant structure that is the Center Camp, which provides a public space for thousands upon thousands of visitors to enjoy, gets its budget from the sale of coffee

Right, so they can sell more coffee. Those big comfy chairs at your local cafe aren't there so they can provide a comfortable place to park your butt, they are there as incentive to lure in to spend $5.00 on a latte.

Chai Guy, would you let me help with those demonstrations?

Absolutely, we welcome any and all revolutionaries that wish to join the Free Chai Revolution, you can help protest, help pour or just help out by enjoying an ice cold free chai, gifted to you by a fellow participant.
(no petitions however, no one who could change it would care to read them anyway).

I have never seen what the big deal is about coffee sales.

Because it's kinda difficult to be all "radically self reliant" when you can't even make a cup of coffee for yourself. Oh yeah and because "No Commerce" should really mean "No Commerce".

Is Burning Man a democracy?

Is Burning Man a democracy?

Re: Is Burning Man a democracy?