Is Burning Man a democracy?

[stuart]

Some camps are totalitarian regimes, some are anarchistic and others are democracies.

I would love to see a plot of camp success and the various methods of government.

As per the cafe. AG, you justified the sale of coffee as a way to financially support center camp. Why can't other camps then do the same?


And Chai Guy, if only you were hot chocolate guy I would be your devoted revolutionary minion. <sigh>

[Sensei]

I love this discussion.

My $.02:
You've all seen the aerial pics of BM. It's always seemed odd to me that this NO COMMERCE event is center(camp)ed around the sale of coffee. It's a catch 22 - the most beautiful and important civic structure at BM seems to exist almost (but not quite) entirely to sell coffee. Which funds the most beautiful and civic structure there.

This makes an already dizzy Sensei dizzier.
I need to sit down now.

[synchronicity]

OK. so I'm a BM virgin - BUT - Coffee is not a mystic art.
#1 in my kitchen no matter where I'm camping is coffee.
I can create a better quality product than I can buy - guaranteed.

[OCCAM'S SLEDGE-O-MATIC]

[quote="stuart"]

[quote]Some camps are totalitarian regimes, some are anarchistic and others are democracies.[/quote]

I would love to see a plot of camp success and the various methods of government.

As per the cafe. AG, you justified the sale of coffee as a way to financially support center camp. Why can't other camps then do the same?


And Chai Guy, if only you were hot chocolate guy I would be your devoted revolutionary minion. <sigh>[/quote]

Stuart, you're fuckin brilliant.

My visual imagination, upon reading your post, gave me the picture (from an old bugs bunny cartoon or somesuch, I think) of a tennis ball screaming over the net, catching fire, and dissolving into ashes, making it impossible for anyone to return.

Though I look forward to the attempts.

[Wind_Borne]

Sometime in the wee hours of the night, when the eastern sky is looking just a little brighter than the western sky, when the volume of the music camps seems to drop just a decibel or so, when I'm dodging fewer unlit hippies on unlit bikes, I make my way to Center Camp. There I flirt with a noble person behind the coffee bar, order a mocha, and sit down, sip my coffee, watch the people, and consider the day. It's a good way to close a day, and a personal tradition.

Center camp serves as a landmark, a refuge, a stage, a place to gather and a place to meet strangers. These are all good things. The coffee enhances all that. The coffee is a bit of pampering and luxury in the wilderness.

- Is Center Camp and it's bought coffee essential to the Burn? No.
- Could participant refuges/cafes take it's place? Yes.
- Could someone or some group provide serve free coffee to all comers? Probably not.

But nothing is stopping anyone from setting up their own answer to Center Camp. I know if you provide shade, comfy couches, and well-made coffee for free, you'll have many visitors!

Hell, maybe I'll do it out past the Man in the deep Playa

[Sensei]

Center camp serves as a landmark, a refuge, a stage, a place to gather and a place to meet strangers. These are all good things. The coffee enhances all that. The coffee is a bit of pampering and luxury in the wilderness.

Wouldn't a 7/11 do the same thing? At the very least, they'd have air conditioning. And slurpees.

Hell, maybe I'll do it out past the Man in the deep Playa

That's more like it; make the addicts work for it.

[Wind_Borne]

Anyone know how many coffees, espressos, and hot chocolates Center Camp Cafe serves each year?

[Wind_Borne]

Contemplate this:

Imagine some one person or group simply subsidized Center Camp Cafe.

- Should they give unlimited drinks to all comers?
- Should they limit the drinks they serve?
- If they limit the drinks, how?

• By queueing (first come first serve) ? Forget other playa activities; you'll be waiting in line.
  By personal attributes? Will you be smart enough, funny enough, or have nice enough tits to get coffee?
  By reciprocal gift? Hey, wait a second, isn't that just commerce in another guise?

That gray you see might be more than just wind-blown playa dust!

[Sensei]

That gray you see might be more than just wind-blown playa dust!

Aha! You've discovered the 'slippery slope'. Please hold on to a post or handrail until we reach our next destination.

[Janka]

But nothing is stopping anyone from setting up their own answer to Center Camp. I know if you provide shade, comfy couches, and well-made coffee for free, you'll have many visitors!

That's not true. No one in BM is free to set up their own Center Camp, the way Center Camp is now, without facing strong opposition from the community. At least I hope the coffee sales at Center Camp don't mean anyone can start selling stuff in their structures, because they desperately need money to cover the costs?

It might be true that Center Camp could not be done if there wasn't sales of drinks in it during the event. I doubt it is true, and even if it was true, the question is that in the spirit of the event, if it cannot be done without commerce, should it be done at all?

I love the idea of a survey of governing forms versus success. Now if someone comes up with an implementable measure of success other than asking the camp itself, I might even do it.

[Zulegoona]

Because " No Commerce" is such an important focus for Chai Guy and many others I'd like to know more about why this is as important as it it to them.

In general commerce isn't very important to me, I do avoid advertising as much as possible , seldom watch any thing public Television or listen to any thing but public radio and don't resent the individual or corporate sponsors are credited for there sponsorship. About the only regular shopping I do is for food, dog food, cigarettes and gas so I don't participate a whole lot in commerce in my every day life.

I spent some time in center camp at least twice a day watching people and the performances. I did buy one cup of Chai towards the end of the week just to try it and wasn't impressed. I made my own coffee and my own ice all week, and I gifted my sugar to a camp that was giving away coffee in the mornings when they ran out, and I enjoyed a cup of their coffee just because they gave it to me not because I needed it. Where they going agents radical self reliance if some one who couldn't make their own drank a cup they provided? How about people who have a cup of your Chai?

[Janka]

For myself, as I said, this is not a key issue in Burning Man for myself by no means. Neither am I very strongly anti-commerce in real life (only anti-extremes concerning commerce and most everything).

But in Burning Man, I think the "no selling or buying" rule is an important part of the event. Without it, we would soon be ran over with people coming to the event to sell their own crafts and stuff, and the whole atmosphere created by the "gift economy" would be gone. So I think the rules should stand for the event as a whole.

And if it should stand for the event as a whole, it makes me kind of uncomfortable that some people have different rules. Yes, center camp is bigger and cool and centerish, but that is not the reason why selling is allowed there. There is no rule that says that if your structure is big and cool and close to the center, you can sell stuff - and by gods, I hope there never will be.

The only reason why Center Camp is allowed sales is that it is placed in a different class of things. And that goes not only against "no selling or buying" but also against "everyone's a participant". Many people bitch about "spectators" - this here is essentially about the same thing. The Center Camp is no longer something created by participants with premises equal to those of every other participant.

I suppose, essentially, I am saying "same rules for everyone" - in that sense, Burning Man should be a democracy. But as I already said, this is not a key issue for me, really.

And yes, I kind of feel the same way about ice. Only less strongly so, because there are no other places offering ice on any scale, while there are lots of places offering shade and coffee. So, I am irrational, too. Sue me. ;)

[Wind_Borne]

But nothing is stopping anyone from setting up their own answer to Center Camp. I know if you provide shade, comfy couches, and well-made coffee for free, you'll have many visitors!

That's not true. No one in BM is free to set up their own Center Camp, the way Center Camp is now, without facing strong opposition from the community. At least I hope the coffee sales at Center Camp don't mean anyone can start selling stuff in their structures, because they desperately need money to cover the costs?

Janka,
Did you notice I specified free? or are you saying a free version of Center Camp would be opposed?

I agree with the prohibition of monetary commerce in BRC -- it's a nice respite from the marketplace of daily life, helps to define BRC as Other, and drives creative solution finding to problems such as those that this thread is talking about.

[Janka]

Yeah, I noticed you said coffee for free. But if there is a (partly) commercially funded thing, I find it kind of funny to say that "well, you're free to do your own of course, but you cannot charge for it". So I think we agree here. :)

[sputnik]

Last year I was on the plane with an extended family from Michigan. Every year they bring out loads of equipment, buy lots of coffee and then make coffee every morning to give away. Neighbors and others bring out danishes and other morning foods to add to the fare. It can be done, but on a smaller distributed scale.

[theCryptofishist]

Okay, okay, I've made my peace with the existence of hte center camp cafe. TPTB feel that having center camp performance space gives newbies a place to experience bm and get on their feet a little without having to walk into camps and plunge into the depths right off. And use the cafe to subsidize the space. Is this the best or only plan? I have no idea, but I'm not stepping up to the plate.
I'm looking forward to seeing Chai Guy onplaya and sampling the Chai. He has won lots of point with me with his passionate advocacy and persistant simple action on the issue.
My husband feels that in his Emergency SErvices Department yellows he is a target for possible dosing if he accepted free coffee from an unknown source, so the caffee does serve a purpose for him. (yeah, bad drip at the commisery.)
I am a happy fence sitter on this issue.

[theCryptofishist]

Forgot to say:
Gifting coffee onplaya is a very powerful thing.

[joel the ornery]

gifting coffee anywhere is a powerful thing.

[bullD]

imagine, if you will, BurningMan without center camp...


<music from jeopardy playing>




nope, doesn't work for me. I have frequented centercamp at ALL times of our 24 hrs in the day and I am happy to report that centercamp changes throughout the day and night, all good, never static, a focal point, the gooey white frosting in between the crispy chocolate wafers, it holds us all together.

yeah, it's a little bunk when all we see are lines for coffee in the late morning but, I say ok, whatever, coffee sales to keep centercamp a reality is fine by me. besides, chaiguy and others like him, I fukin love these people, would not be engaging us in the way they do, they make us think and that is good.

did I mention everything else that goes on in centercamp besides coffee sales? do I need to?

I will close with this question: when was the last time you went to a corporate sponsored event? How much stuff did you see for sale? Hell, when was the last time you went to a large house party? was that party asking for a, eh hem, 'donation' for the party favors?

I say we are lucky to have organizers that consciously do this little shindig in the desert. can you imagine if it were done unconsciously?

[actiongrl]

I am left to wonder if we would have Chai Guy's fantastic experiment if he hadn't had the cafe to protest...interesting. At any rate I quit coffee a year ago and I'm just offering up ideas to the discussion, not trying to define myself as ascribing to a particular ideology. But I do enjoy my time hanging out in the Center Camp structure.

[Chai Guy]

Because " No Commerce" is such an important focus for Chai Guy and many others I'd like to know more about why this is as important as it it to them.

Well it's important to me for a lot of reasons (many have been mentioned above). Essentially:

1. No commerce should mean no commerce, it's difficult to explain to people the non commercial nature of Burning Man when you have to add the "except for center camp cafe" addendum.

2. If we are a "community" shouldn't the "community" provide for itself? You know, "radical self reliance" and all, right? (again "You are expected to provide for your own survival - except coffee/chai/lemonade etc.)

3. It's a Gift economy, by providing coffee and chai for $$ you are taking away an opportunity for members of the community the experience of giving or receiving of a gift.

4. The Center Camp cafe creates all the same problems we see with the default world, people leave trash everywhere (IMO it's the most consistently moopy camp on the playa), there is an expectation of entitlement because "I'm paying for this latte!" The design of the cafe is built for spectating "hey look, a stage! entertain me!" There is no community investment because it wasn't produced by the community, it was produced by the LLC.

Finally, it doesn’t matter if the community can gift coffee/chai 24-7, part of the beauty of the event is not having expectations and the serendipitous nature of it all. You wouldn't ask Alien Love Nest to not give out pendants if they couldn't provide for one for the entire population, why does getting rid of the cafe mean that someone has to pick up all the slack?

[joel the ornery]

what was the question?

[Kinetic IV]

Odds of winning a Powerball Jackpot: 1 in 120,526,770
Odds of winning a Mega Millions Jackpot: 1 : 135,145,920
Odds of the LLC stopping the sale of ice and coffee at the event: Astronomically NOT in your favor.

That's the long winded way of saying I don't see this changing anytime soon, and I'm not sure if there's a mechanism to force a change anyway.

And oh yeah, read Joel's posts on the subject.

[Chai Guy]

I'm not sure if there's a mechanism to force a change anyway.

Which brings me back to the original question and my original response which is:

If you want to see something happen at Burning Man, then get off your ass and do it.

If you think there should be free chai, then make some and give it away.

If you think there should be a public transportation system, then design and build one.

If you think propane toilets are somehow more environmentaly friendly than JOTS, then bring one (an actual thread topic on Tribe recently).

In other words, be the change you wish to see.

[Q_]

do-ocracy

[Kinetic IV]

Rephrased again: Don't be a spectator, participate. You make your own event / experience / change / power.

[d6]

Chai guy:
If you want to see something happen at Burning Man, then get off your ass and do it

Shouldn't that be in the survival guide somewhere?
or on a sign entering the city?
required reading prior to buying admission?

d6,
refusing to silence the "golden throats" comps blaring in the background...

[joel the ornery]

every third paying customer gets spanked...


that'll either repel them or attract them

[Sensei]

Excuse me, did someone say something about spankings? I was standing waaaaaay over there, but I'm almost certain I heard the word 'spanking'. It just sort of got my attention.

[stuart]

Contemplate this:

many arguments of distraction, false analogies and false dichotomies wind-borne.

Look, In this discussion I am not taking a stand on center camp. That horse has been quite well flogged. AG justified the coffee sales at center camp as a means to the end that is center camp. You initially responded with your anecdote, poetic as it was, describing the importance of center camp to you. In your anecdote you mentioned the sound camps. The larger, better, more populated ones spend tens of thousands of dollars, provide lots of seating, are often more crowded than center camp and in many cases give away bevvies. Should they be allowed to sell beer or glowsticks? One of your arguments focuses on the need to provide the service of unlimited coffee to all comers, free or paid for. There is no such need. If you need to go somewhere and have someone make a cuppa and sell it to you, you are at the wrong event. If you want to go find some new friends and share a mocha, at center camp or not, that you or they provided without changing money then welcome to Burning Man.