Is Burning Man a democracy?

[stuart]

bullD

imagine, if you will, BurningMan without center camp...


<music from jeopardy playing>


nope, doesn't work for me

not only did I imagine it, I lived it. Took me 4 burns to make my way over there for the first time. Not as an idealogical protest. I simply had other priorities. The point being that YMMV. Center camp, like everything else but the Man (and some would argue that as well) is not a neccessity. It does look pretty cool from those parachuter shots though

[blyslv]

Hypocrisy Is part of being a grown up it always has been and always will be. individuals form together into communities champing freedom and by doing so give up some personal freedom to the rule of law determined by the community. The idea of mutual defense of a peaceful life style amounting to being willing to kill to be peaceful. and so on. Life is not black and white wholly good or bad and to see it that way distorts the true nature of things. As for no commerce I do enjoy the non-commercial aspect of the event but it's not the reason I've gone. There is nothing about the event that in reality is anti-capitalistic, and it in fact has prompted me to spend thousands of dollars I wouldn't have otherwise so I have never seen what the big deal is about coffee sales.

You make a valid point, yet I think it is more applicible to indivduals surviving and not large organizations formed to advance some vision. That is, if BM LLC (the entity that "prodices" BM) is going to espouse "no-commerce" to the point of enshrining it in rules, then I think it makes it easioer for us and them if they follow their own rules.

Do I deviat from my stated ideals? Yes. It might even be consiered hypocrisy by some. But as an indivdual it has less impact. When a larger entity does so, it has greater and more harmful impact.

[blyslv]

1. No commerce should mean no commerce, it's difficult to explain to people the non commercial nature of Burning Man when you have to add the "except for center camp cafe" addendum.

2

Can I buy you a cup of coffee?

I've actually "lost" several people at this point. They roll their eyes, smile knowlingly and say something like:

"So wait a minute! I can't sell anything, but the BM organization can sell coffee? That's bullshit, I'm not going!"

Ouch.

[theCryptofishist]

You make a valid point, yet I think it is more applicible to indivduals surviving and not large organizations formed to advance some vision.

Large organizations formed to advance some vision that don't have a clear sence of the fact that they will inevitably come in conflict with themselves scare the bejezuz out of me.

[Lassen Forge]

Bottom line is this...

It's the LLC's show. IF they want to have a for-costs (or even for-profit) tent in the middle of the shindig selling whatever, yet prohibit everyone else from commercial activity... they can. It's their party.

IF you're so dead set against it, don't do business there. Support those like CG and protest if you want. Won't change much, but do it anyway - maybe someone will listen. Or not. It doesn't matter...

There's a demand for it, otherwise it wouldn't be there. Like CampArtica. DOn't know many people who don't do that. There's a few... but the ice is too... um... valuable, both as cold *and* for some, for the water content if they underestimate their water usage. At least CA's $$ goes to the local communities. THAT, I can live with (having lived in a small desert community)...

And... um... what's so bad about the coffee in the Com-misery? I've had worse from an Arco station in Santa Rosa... of course, it started out weak, cooked for 2 days, and more poured on top of it, further heat-distilled, and on and on... had this, um, "well-aged" roasted flavor... kind of like the fine aroma of a burned-out shell from a car fire... gave one stylishly black lips for halloween (and the rest of the year, but who's counting?)... Gave this nice, warm... er... make that nice, burning feeling all the way down (and back up again)... Now *THAT* was a mean cuppa joe!

What surprised me were the regulars who would stop there just *for* the coffee... Then again, maybe *that's* why they tore the place down, selling dangerous substances and toxic waste bordering on hallucinogenic...

Anyway, if they want to build CC and sell stuff there, hypocritical or not, like I said, it's their party. >>shrug<<

[Q_]

If you really don't like it you can form another festival....

[Lassen Forge]

If you really don't like it you can form another festival....

This is true... but then it wouldn't be BRC.

[ThePikey]

It's also presumably easier to try to change an organization already in existance than to find 40,000 friends and invite them out to the middle of nowhere to do some truly freaky shit of your own design.

[sputnik]

It's also presumably easier to try to change an organization already in existance than to find 40,000 friends and invite them out to the middle of nowhere to do some truly freaky shit of your own design.

Start with 40 friends, stick with it for 20 years and you just might end up at 40K. OTOH it's possible that it'll just be you camping alone in 20 years. Hard to say what will catch on and why.

[spectabillis]

It's also presumably easier to try to change an organization already in existance than to find 40,000 friends and invite them out to the middle of nowhere to do some truly freaky shit of your own design.

dont bet on that, especially when faced with water cannons and mace.

[Badger]

I think another point to be made is that the monies DO go to creating Center Camp. I'm not crazy about the place personally but I know enough people who claim that one or more high points of their event experience happened there. The difference between commerce being plowed back into a single point/place which benefits a large group of folks and commerce that benefits a single person is a no brainer.

[bullD]

not only did I imagine it, I lived it. Took me 4 burns to make my way over there for the first time.

damn bro, you gotta get out more. he he he

btw thanks, if it were not for people like you being so damn busy out there then, then, blahhh...

It does look pretty cool from those parachuter shots though

yep, looks cool from the satellite photos too.

[bullD]

I think another point to be made is that the monies DO go to creating Center Camp. I'm not crazy about the place personally but I know enough people who claim that one or more high points of their event experience happened there. The difference between commerce being plowed back into a single point/place which benefits a large group of folks and commerce that benefits a single person is a no brainer.

woot!!! thought completed.

sheesh, it really IS that simple.

[ThePikey]

Start with 40 friends, stick with it for 20 years and you just might end up at 40K.

But *that* would require *patience*.

[JRoyale]

Is Burning Man a democracy… no, as previous mentioned, it is a for-profit limit liability corporation. I have no issues with why it was set up that way. I wasn’t around in during the chaos of 95-97, but I am surprised they were able to manage to survive…and prosper. I give Larry and the rest of his crew a lot of credit for pulling that rabbit out of a hat, and if it took an LLC to do it, that’s ok by me.

No, my beef is that, as far as I can tell, it no longer makes sense from the community’s point of view to have the Organization be for-profit. I can understand why the LLC members are reluctant to examine other options for managing the community, as quite frankly, they enjoy the power and peaks that come with the offices they hold. And they see no reasons to change what is a comfortable situation…for them.

Now, I’m not going to argue that the BMOrg is a poorly run organization or even a corrupt one, because if you compare to other corporations, it comes off looking pretty good. And you also have to give the BMOrg credit for reacting to customer complaints…because while the attendees might be “participants” we are really nothing more than customers to the LLC.

And that’s the rub. I’m customer, not a participant. And all that bullshit the greeters give you welcoming you home, is just that – Bullshit …because my home is NOT managed by a corporation. I can’t consider fascist (which is a loaded word to be sure, and I’m slightly exaggerating for a point, but is does apply describe the current situation.) state as my home. Not anymore.

Thus, I am finding it increasingly difficult to donate time and effort to a for-profit corporation were I am really nothing more than a customer, where my time, effort and money go to someone else’s bottom line - especially since it doesn’t have to be that way. And let’s not fool ourselves…Burning Man, LLC might be a for-profit corporation, but there is no way it could pull off the event without either selling out its core beliefs and having sponsors or absolutely relying on the dedicated and backbreaking labor of thousands of volunteers.

So, what’s my point? My point is that LLC needs to open up to some sort of representative government, where us customers can become true participants in our community. I certainly am NOT advocating some sort of big hippy commune catastrophe where every topic is debated endlessly and voted on and then re-vote on until some sort of consensus is achieved. But, there are lots of ways to inject democracy into our community in a manner that with strengthen it and make is a real community where we members have a stake and a say in the governance of the community. Didn't we found this country by throwing tea overboard because of some foolish notion about representation? Only, I don’t think it was so foolish, and I certainly enjoy the results of that little tea party 200+ years ago.

Personally, my favorite idea would be to convert the LLC from a for-profit to a non-profit, with an elected board of governs (much like the Sierra Club). Personally, I find that the BMOrg already acts like a non-profit, looks like a non-profit and smells like a non-profit.. Tho’ I suspect Action Girl will be on shortly to tell everyone that being an LLC gives them a lot more freedom to do things. Unfortunately, she never really gets anymore specific as to what freedoms and things the BMOrg so desperately needs to do that require maintaining the LLC.

Certainly, there are a lot of benefits for converting to non-profit besides introducing democracy. The ability to write off donations and make art grants for playa bound pieces tax deducible is certainly one. “Living” in a democracy when we are “home” is certainly another. And, having some logical and functional method to replace Larry when he time comes is another (let’s face it, the average age of an LLC member increase by exactly one every year and Trey just doesn’t fill this father shoes.) (And please note: I’m not advocating giving everyone that buys a ticket a vote…the Sierra Club doesn’t do that, and neither does any other non-profit.)

Like I said, that’s only one option, there are others that would work, but the trying times for the BMOrg are over and the success of the organization is no longer in doubt. The control that Larry and company grabbed from the community bring the BMOrg to this point was needed back then, but isn't need any longer. It is time to start moving to another model and we might as well start moving now.

[Kinetic IV]

Before this debate goes any further perhaps a review of the Burning Man Mission Statement is in order. I'd follow that by re-reading how the event got started, and why it got started. Some of the stuff I'm reading flies in the face of 20 years of historical trends for this event we all love. Anyway I'll shut up for the moment. Here's the all important and very detailed Mission Statement:

Our mission is to produce the annual event known as "Burning Man" and to guide, nurture and protect the more permanent community created by its culture. Our intention is to generate society that connects each individual to his or her creative powers, to participation in community, to the larger realm of civic life, and to the even greater world of nature that exists beyond society. We believe that the experience of Burning Man can produce positive spiritual change in the world. To this end, it is equally important that we communicate with one another, with the citizens of Black Rock City and with the community of Burning Man wherever it may arise. Burning Man is radically inclusive, and its meaning is potentially accessible to anyone. The touchstone of value in our culture will always be immediacy: experience before theory, moral relationships before politics, survival before services, roles before jobs, embodied ritual before symbolism, work before vested interest, participant support before sponsorship. Finally, in order to accomplish these ends, Burning Man must endure as a self-supporting enterprise that is capable of sustaining the lives of those who dedicate themselves to its work. From this devotion spring those duties that we owe to one another. We will always burn the Man

This is the LLC's gameplan, period. The horse can be flogged and maybe persuaded to change direction a little...but after 20 years of putting this event together...as I read this I see a core group that has their crap together, knows where they're going, and has a pretty good idea of how to get there. So....as someone else said....what's this discussion about again?

[bullD]

critical panty-hose parade created for the shirtcockers of the event? they need to be held, too...

[Janka]

Topic-relevant things first: for me, personally, what BM is on paper is less important than what it is in reality. Technically, maybe I am a customer. In practice, I am a participant.

Personally, I do not think allowing burners to vote for a government is the way to go. Events like this live and die with the people who do them, and when things go wrong changing the people if they do not want to leave is rarely the option. Representative democracies are always compromises, and as such necessary for many mundane world things, but compromises are rarely the things that create new and wonderful things.

And then to the off-topic business:

TPTB feel that having center camp performance space gives newbies a place to experience bm and get on their feet a little without having to walk into camps and plunge into the depths right off. And use the cafe to subsidize the space.

As a 2004 newbie I must strongly disagree with this. Going to a café where you can buy a latte and passively watch performances is not a good way to get used to BM. It is a nice chill-out place, sure, but for newbies I think it's either misleading (if they do not yet have a clue) or a disappointment (if they do).

What is a good way to first experience BM and get on your feet is good neighbours, who help you pitch your tent and give you gifts and invite you to a dinner with singing and story-telling. IMO, YMMV, of course. :)

[theCryptofishist]

And, having some logical and functional method to replace Larry when he time comes is another

This will be interesting. You certainly do get a lot more of the power plays post death of Alexander the Great than you of the Scientologists lasting past Hubbard. Yet institutions do survive thier founders--every dynasty in China and Europe and history attests to that. Expect big changes, if bm survives. It will no longer be Larry's baby--what will it become?

[Lassen Forge]

I wasn’t around in during the chaos of 95-97, but I am surprised they were able to manage to survive…and prosper. I give Larry and the rest of his crew a lot of credit for pulling that rabbit out of a hat, and if it took an LLC to do it, that’s ok by me.

You bring up a good point. A DAMN good point. A lot of people, faced with what they were faced with, would have folded their burn-blankets and called it quits. Or sold out to a corporation. That Larry has the tenacity not only to push ahead and not only keep it alive but even have it prosper is a small miracle. No, HUGE frigging miracle.

Face it - were it not for that, we wouldn't be "doing" BM this year. Period. Then what?... it'd be "Remember the old days when there was a Burning Man?" ALso look at the hell they've been going through setting up The Ranch... If you're not aware of *that* political battle, then you should read up on it.

And that's something few of us thought of (Hell, I didn't until I just thought of it a couple seconds ago). A lot of us are concerned about the cuts in city services (like the mass downsizing of the BRG, for example), but when you stop and look at the *permanent* presence they're putting in out there, something that will kind of anchor BRC (and may even be the beginning of a "real and permanent" BRC year round - who knows??) I can see why they're making hard choices.

Now, I’m not going to argue that the BMOrg is a poorly run organization or even a corrupt one, because if you compare to other corporations, it comes off looking pretty good. And you also have to give the BMOrg credit for reacting to customer complaints…because while the attendees might be “participants” we are really nothing more than customers to the LLC.

I think we're both. We have to pay to be there, ergo customers. BUT, without the participation of those customers, it'd just be a, well, bunch of people spectating on a big camping trip. And you gotta admit, that there's a lot more than just spectating going on out there. Would I set up a community sewing machine and cook dinner for the neighbors and whatnot at a "spectator event"? (I'll use the Strawberry Music Festival for the counterpoise). Hell no. Why not? Because people out there, some as close as next door, insist on being strangers to their neighbors. ANd act like they are "too good" to come over, say hi, and share a brewski or dinner or whatnot. DOn't see that in *our* city. ANd the other end of that is this - if there *was* no community at BRC you think it'd still be there? Yeah, go once, and f*** it. No... it's more than just the spectacle of watching a big wooden guy burn on Saturday night... people show up and leave *before* the burn and still go. THAT, in it's own right, says something about BRC and the "event".

Thus, I am finding it increasingly difficult to donate time and effort to a for-profit corporation were I am really nothing more than a customer, where my time, effort and money go to someone else’s bottom line - especially since it doesn’t have to be that way. And let’s not fool ourselves…Burning Man, LLC might be a for-profit corporation, but there is no way it could pull off the event without either selling out its core beliefs and having sponsors or absolutely relying on the dedicated and backbreaking labor of thousands of volunteers.

And that's why we volunteers volunteer to break our backs to do this thing. Because the whole thing is NOT a spectator event for us. Part of it (maybe the biggest part) is being INVOLVED, being a part of what makes this damn thing run year after dusty, windy year. No Shit. When you look beyond the monetary, and I mean this from the heart of my bottom, it IS something special. I've done more for less. I've *really* busted my cute ass for orgs which were blatantly a money-suck for the owner because I liked the premise. Was I jaded eventually? Yes. Why? Because the person who ran it (as a NPO - no one knows how she did that) and her "elite team of brownnoses" made it apparent we were there to be used, abused, and fucked to support her and her, um, "bad habits". Whether or not BMOrg is a FPO or not (which it is, no BS there) they listen to you. Even if they make unpopular decisions , they still have to keep this thing afloat. ANd like it or not, they do just that. WITHOUT taking on Budweiser as a corporate sponsor.

NPO's are good from a touchie-feelie standpoint - but they promote stagnation rather than growth. And, I'm sorry, but elected government? It's NOT a "club", democracy, or even a governmental entity. IT'S AN EVENT. You pay for your ticket and go in the tent and see the 3 legged dog and the bearded lady, watch the fireworks and go the fuck home. RIGHT NOW we participants/patrons/spectators/whatever at least have *some* say in things - maybe not a lot, but more than any other thing I can think of. Plus we can effect change. Doubt that? Hell, try to volunteer at one of the music festivals or at some other big, long time event - you get shunned and laughed at for asking. HERE they welcome new blood, tell you **PLEASE** volunteer, they even have online forums and a whole spring shindig to pull in outside talent. THAT, my dear, is a frigging miracle, and unheard of.

And, having some logical and functional method to replace Larry when he time comes is another (let’s face it, the average age of an LLC member increase by exactly one every year and Trey just doesn’t fill this father shoes.)

My brother was a destitute addicted person with no hope until *our* dad got sick and died. He's now successful, responsible, and has it on the ball. WHen it's the family business and it's all you got you can do miracles. DON'T sell someone short because he's not his dad... Fuck, my brother is not our dad but he's doing OK. We would have nevver thought the Novato Renfaire Pattersons would put it back together, but Phyllis' kids did just that (and that was an NPO that died because it was an event that tried to be an NPO - had they went LLC they'd still have their property and still be around as a powerhouse.

Like I said, that’s only one option, there are others that would work, but the trying times for the BMOrg are over and the success of the organization is no longer in doubt.

That's what the LHC (Renfaire NPO) said at 20 They collapsed. Bad. To stay in business is a constant struggle - there is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine nor a free ride. Put gas at $5 a gallon and put a bunch of misinformed and poor decisions at the corporate level, and get some negative politicking and a bad turn of events or 2 and BRC and BMOrg are a thing of the past. And then we *will* be remembering the "good old days" rather than prepping for another desert sojourn.

Actually, the SIerra club isn't doing so well either, if I remember right...

ANyway, sorry for the horrendous length... I just worry about seeing this event crash like so many others that fucked with a winning formula to keep everyone happy. YMMV and stuff...

[theCryptofishist]

Thus, I am finding it increasingly difficult to donate time and effort to a for-profit corporation

This is a very moot point. They've never turned a profit and everything gets ploughed back into the event. Last year, before tickets went on sale they were borrowing (in essence--delaying salery payment) from at least one board member in order to keep going until money started coming in again. (If the relevent page of hte main site is accurate and accurately remembered.) It's a lot different from volenteering for Mall Wart.

[HughMungus]

having center camp performance space gives newbies a place to experience bm and get on their feet a little without having to walk into camps and plunge into the depths right off.

It was better before there was a stage and people were focused on each other instead of whatever TERRIBLE bands, speakers or performance artists were up there annoying the shit out of everyone but themselves. If it's suposed to be a chill-ish space for people to chill and/or meet and/or meetup, get rid of the stage and the amplified CRAP.

[HughMungus]

If you think there should be a public transportation system, then design and build one.

Has this ever been tried? Damn that would be cool.

[HughMungus]

Anyway, if they want to build CC and sell stuff there, hypocritical or not, like I said, it's their party. >>shrug<<

See, this is what spurred my original question: are we attending their party or are we attending OUR party?

[blyslv]

What would happen if I set up a coffee stand in center camp to support my really bitchen' idea for a theme camp next year? Would I be kicked out of the event?

[stuart]

The difference between commerce being plowed back into a single point/place which benefits a large group of folks and commerce that benefits a single person is a no brainer.

so you're down with sol system, xara, pinky's selling beer to fund their projects right? I mean, so long as we can check up on their accounting and make sure that is actually where the profits are going. Just like the cafe.

[Chai Guy]

They've never turned a profit.

Cites??

[theCryptofishist]

A surge in ticket sales during the final two weeks of August put us over the top. We can't claim that we predicted this outcome. In fact, throughout June, July, and the beginning of August, the rate of ticket purchases nearly paralleled the 2002 rate. If the anticipated trend continued, we would have achieved our expected goal: basic solvency with some small cushion for contingencies remaining.

(emphasis mine)

Not only was this extra income an unexpected windfall, it was also a very timely one. Throughout 2003, we were engaged in a protracted political struggle that caused us to spend many thousands of dollars for unanticipated expenses. <snip> The greater cost of Fuel and Rental items is also partially a result of efforts to reorganize our land use

These extra expenses continued into 2004, in fact, including monies spent through January and February to complete required improvements at Black Rock Station, and $134,000 paid for real estate in Gerlach in order to comply with Washoe County land-use regulations.. <snip>After spending about $100,000 per-month in January and February of 2004 for basic operating expenses, the $444,571 had dwindled to precisely zero. In fact, we cut it so close that one salary check – that of a board member – wasn’t issued for two days until money arrived from new ticket sales.

Okay, maybe not never, but the raisen detray is the event--not making money off the event. I get the feeling there's a whole lot of scraping by--although there may be waste as well.
2003 Afterburn report 2004 not yet available.

[Janka]

Re: the public transport, one of the ideas I toyd with in the post-hype of last year with was a BRC Bus Line - basically an art bus compliant with the year's theme, more or less constantly on the move, with some preplanning but probably with highly erratic schedules. It could have a sign in the front saying the next main route ("The Man VIA Center Camp" or "Clockwise until end of Mars"), or whatever, so people who got on knew where they would be getting. Inside, maybe they'd serve chai or whatever.

Unfortunately, coming from Europe, not being able to drive a bus, having other megalomaniac ideas in the line and not being able to implement one of them this year, and other hindrances, this will not happen in the next five or ten years at least ;).

If someone else does it before that, though, I'd be interested to volunteer as one of the flight, er, bus attendants / on-tour schedule planners / whatever, though...:)

[tisha2]

some friends and i were just talking about this very thing...they do kinetic scupltures and one of them just brought a rickshaw last year and drove people around wherever they wanted to go all week.

we figured out that any kind of real 'schedule' would not be possible..playa-time and all that. but established STOPS (ie, center camp, the man, 2:00, 10:00) that any old art car could pull up to and announce where they were headed would allow anyone who wanted to to participate. AND those that didn't want to take on passengers could simply avoid the stops. All it would take is some creative 'bus stop' installations and let the rest happen.