share your non-dome shelter blue prints

spoteditor · Post by **spoteditor** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:08 am

I've been trying to figure out the best shelter based on cost, time and comfort. To see my drawings (pdf) folllow the link below. I would love the get your comments, especially with regards to:

1) Will it stand up the the elements.
2) Estimates on how long it would take to set up and break down.
(time is critical)
3) Economical use of materials (costs)
4) Considering I need to ship this from NY, 1" metal condiut or 1 5/8" PVC.

www.postmillennium.com

(go to login - username: burningman / password: shelter)

I really appreciate any comments, and if anyone has any drawings to share, I would love to see them.

spoteditor · Post by **spoteditor** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:10 am

by the way, click 'download' under the project file heading, if it doesn't come up by clicking the icon. thanks.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:30 pm

I would love to see your shelter idea but I really don't want to sit through a flash download. Got a direct link?

spoteditor wrote:I've been trying to figure out the best shelter based on cost, time and comfort. To see my drawings (pdf) folllow the link below. I would love the get your comments, especially with regards to:

1) Will it stand up the the elements.
2) Estimates on how long it would take to set up and break down.
(time is critical)
3) Economical use of materials (costs)
4) Considering I need to ship this from NY, 1" metal condiut or 1 5/8" PVC.

www.postmillennium.com

(go to login - username: burningman / password: shelter)

I really appreciate any comments, and if anyone has any drawings to share, I would love to see them.

spoteditor · Post by **spoteditor** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:46 pm

I'll try to get a direct link on another site or if all else failes, paste a low rez jpeg into this space. The site (despite having very minimal flash), does work better with broadband.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:20 pm

I'm on 1.2 MB DSL :P

spoteditor wrote:I'll try to get a direct link on another site or if all else failes, paste a low rez jpeg into this space. The site (despite having very minimal flash), does work better with broadband.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:32 pm

I got past the login page but got a 404 error clicking on the document link:

http://www.postmillennium.com/projects/ ... ncept2.pdf

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:33 pm

I looked at your plans.

I would have your truck blocking the afternoon sun, rather the morning sun.

I would buy 3 costco carport and save alot of $$$

Not sure how much cooling will take place with that setup.

if you buy the costco carport take the $$ you save and dress up the place.

falk · Post by **falk** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:11 am

DallasPlaya wrote:I would love to see your shelter idea but I really don't want to sit through a flash download.

Seconded. I think I should say -- and I say this with the love of jaysus in my heart -- that's a pretty bad web page.

First, flash doesn't work with all browsers. If the user's browser doesn't work with flash, then the user can't get past your front page.

Second, search engines can't handle flash either. By having a flash front page, you've guaranteed your site will never be listed by any search engine.

Third, requiring the user to log in just to view the web contact is a bad idea. Most of the time, if I see a login page, I stop right there. I wonder if the hassle of registration will be worth the content on the other side. More importantly, I wonder what you wanted the information for.

Elemental666 · Post by **Elemental666** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:34 am

not to start a flame war or anything, but

1. I don't know of any browser's that support flash natively, they all require you to download and install the flash player...

2. Having a flash front page doesn't exclude you from search engines. That's why we have meta tags and <div> boxes that we can hide..

3. I got the contact info without logging in, but had to log in to get to the pdf link, which is broken... either the pdf aint there, the linki s wrong or my firewall is hating on it...

that said, I haven't got a clue what your webpage is doing... I see there are 2 editors and they have some reels up, so I'd assume that if i needed an editor I you'd like me to contact you and offer you a job... but I don't know anything for sure based on your webpage...

I would like to see your plans though...

swampdog · Post by **swampdog** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:45 pm

Well, I've only tried one thing so far for structures on the playa and it worked so well I'm going to repeat it. So first a critique of what I think might be problems with the design you posted, then a little about what worked for me.

1. It looks expensive, heavy, and time consuming to set up.
2. Vertical posts and flat walls seem like about the toughest combo. Vertical posts seem like they'd be hard to stabilize and flat walls (esp. flat TARP walls) are like giant sails.
3. Interior walls? Umm, ok...
4. Shade over sleeping area is most effective when it's 2 layers - eg shade structure over tent. Just shade is going to be not much protection from the weather. Just tarp is going to be even worse - it'll be like an oven in mid day.

What worked for me was a quonset-like structure. Here's a writeup that I did http://tinyurl.com/4jbp6 which references this http://tinyurl.com/9fnvm which is where my camp mate got the design from. Here's a picture of our shade structure http://tinyurl.com/5a7rz

Advantages: Cheap, easy, structurally solid, roomy. Took maybe 2 hours total to assemble on playa. My campmates put their large-ish 3+ person tent under the shade, we had a kitchen, plenty of room to sit, and even room for our bikes much of the time. No problem standing upright in most of the structure. The structure can be extended by adding on additional segments, or replicated if you need more space. If privacy for Nate and Judy is a really big deal, you could put separate smaller tents under it, or drape interior walls from teh support. The only disadvantages are, it's a relatively narrow space (10' wide) and it's not particularly stylish. Buckminster Fuller never designed a quonset hut.

(edited to add: I assume you'd want to put some sort of tent under the shade structure regardless of whether you put up separate tents for Nate and Judy. And I'd just build the shower somewhere detached from teh main structure. Whatever you do about gray water, you want to keep it away from everything else.)

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:09 pm

One word: camo netting.

Whoops that's two words.

Layer it for more shade. It sheds wind. It comes in many designer colors because there are many climate zones where you don't want people shooting at you.

I don't do Flash or log-ins.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:26 pm

Used a 10x10 easy-up lawn shade for the last four years. Will be bringing it again in 05. One change this year. It will have a passive solar fan to draw the heat off the inside top.

spoteditor · Post by **spoteditor** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:34 am

Thanks especially to swampdog for such well documented plans.

I had a hunch I was being overzealous, although I did want to do something a little special/lavish. But after reading postings from good e-playa people, like yourselves, I think I would be pretty angry at myself if after 2 days of hard labor and a thousand bucks, I didn't have a place to sleep.

Despite being quite embarrassed about my excessive and impractical structure, I have made a link in regular link to it as promised.

http://www.seethink.com/media/concept2.pdf

P.S. I'm a little (temporarily) dishartened, after spending days of thought and research on this. But better now than later. I'm also thinking pretty strongly about swampdog's suggestion (on his building doc) about joining a larger camp (as I did in '96-'98). The people I camped with last time stoped going after the big changes, and since it's been so long, I think of myself as a virgin.

Having said that, I would still be interested in seeing everyone's ideas.

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:42 am

unjonharley wrote:Used a 10x10 easy-up lawn shade for the last four years. Will be bringing it again in 05. One change this year. It will have a passive solar fan to draw the heat off the inside top.

A fatal flaw in their design! They trap a HUGE volume of hot air, and I've never seen one that had a ventilated canopy like the super-fancy-super-costly artfair models. Otherwise, they're great- Especially if you guy 'em down. I've been beating the hell out of two of them for years, and you can get 'em pretty cheap from Sam's Club or even Kmart. Check for METAL vs. PLASTIC joints. The new ones have powdercoated frames, which is nice ESPECIALLY on the playa, but the connectors are cheaper and lighter than in days of old. The bags that they come in have been "updated" too, featuring little wheels that work well on hard surfaces but that are useless when camping. The new bags zip closed, and you have to fight to pack everything back in before you zip or the teeth'll jam. (Old bag just slid on like a condom.) They sometimes come with sidepanels, which velcro on and will NOT survive a playawindgust. Plan on aluminet or something else for your sides, if you need them.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:13 am

spoteditor wrote:I had a hunch I was being overzealous, although I did want to do something a little special/lavish. But after reading postings from good e-playa people, like yourselves, I think I would be pretty angry at myself if after 2 days of hard labor and a thousand bucks, I didn't have a place to sleep.

This year will be the first time I construct a truly public space AND a space for my peeps to sleep so now that I've seen your plans I'm very interested in what you're attempting. In fact, I'm thinking of doing a structure just like that (but 20x20) and I'm concerned about sidewalls (but not interior walls). You've brought up some good points.

What about someone else's suggestion about using tents for privacy instead of interior walls? That should provide enough space for sleeping and have the additional advantages of more noise and weather resistance (and more security). It will also save you $ and time on conduit, tarps, and connectors. It would cut back on the need for any interior walls and even cut back on the necessity for sidewalls (e.g., if it gets really windy and/or rainy, you can roll up the sidewalls and go hide in your tent). That's our plan for our private/sleeping space. One reason I want them to be completely separate spaces is because there will be times when someone wants to sleep and you want to be up and/or have people over.

Like someone else suggested, I would definitely move the sun shower away from the rest of the camping area. You can rig up a simple shower curtain for privacy for that.

P.S. I'm a little (temporarily) dishartened, after spending days of thought and research on this. But better now than later.

Yeah, that's what the ePlaya is for. I have yet to even buy and test my shade structure (trying to get the current RV sold and the next RV bought, ugh). Then you can critique mine. :D

I'm also thinking pretty strongly about swampdog's suggestion (on his building doc) about joining a larger camp (as I did in '96-'98).

You'd still have to create your own shade space for your people to sleep. I'd only camp with another camp if there were a good reason to do so (because, honestly, at this point, I wouldn't know them that well and how loud/quiet they want to be, etc.).

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:00 pm

robotland wrote:...Check for METAL vs. PLASTIC joints. The new ones have powdercoated frames, which is nice ESPECIALLY on the playa....

Do they powdercoat the inside of the tubes?

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:05 pm

I'll look when I get home- Bet they aren't. The ends are capped, so they're less likely to take in playa...but you know better than I what the magic dust can do.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:22 pm

I'm drilling the feet this year to fit rebar. The ones on them just arnt right. Let the playa dust eat them. And a wind hole in the top. With pasive solar fan if the winds not blowing. Hope I don't cheat some "poor" garlic farmer out of some of his wind.

hunter S · Post by **hunter S** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:57 pm

ibdave, gave great advice on cosco grauge type shelters. I used one last year, it worked so good we bought two more for this year(wind didn't matter if well anchored) side walls can be opened or foilded back if the winds realy blow I would open all sides let it blow through. Key is anchor the legs at the ground

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:52 pm

4x4 posts, steel cable, rope, silver tarp, bungie balls, rebar.

modular, inexspensive, very lightweight, very tough.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:01 pm

Shirley, that inflatable furniture needs a few rebar stakes.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:40 pm

stuart wrote:4x4 posts, steel cable, rope, silver tarp, bungie balls, rebar.

modular, inexspensive, very lightweight, very tough.[/img]

Doesn't this leave holes in the ground?

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:37 am

Thought update: I was talking to someone at work yesterday about shelters and he mentioned the possibility of just getting a pipe bender (cheap) and conduit and building your own joints for your shelter. Now I'm wondering if this would be a cheaper alternative to buying the joints for the conduits (though you'd still want to get the bungee balls and the tarp).

For pipe-to-pipe connections (such as horizontal connections) you could use innertubes (as described here: http://www.maxicon.com/Burning_Man/PVC_ ... _playa.htm ).

Hm...anybody ever try this? Anybody know of any non-dome conduit structures that require bends and no welds?

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:24 pm

DallasPlaya wrote:
stuart wrote:4x4 posts, steel cable, rope, silver tarp, bungie balls, rebar.

modular, inexspensive, very lightweight, very tough.[/img]
Doesn't this leave holes in the ground?

I'm doing something kind of the same idea, but more framed out (think along the lines of something you might find on a Midway) and staked and guyed down. I've seen structures like that withstand all kinda wind and stay put. Used candy canes and car axles for stakes. If it can stand 60 MPH gusts in the Mojave, I don't see why it wouldn't survive the Playa... and it requires no holes (other than the ones made by the stakes) - an iron "L" bracket at the bottom of the uprights and guyed from the top corners. Oh, the guy lines also provide you with your walls (more wind resistant at an angle and gives a little better footroom at the bottom).

(Edited because I hit Submit too fast!)

safetythird · Post by **safetythird** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:21 pm

I started pricing out the parts to build my own shade structure and things started adding up fast. For the amount of usable space we want I simply couldn't build it cheaper than buying the costco car port with all the tarps already tailored. 20'x10' with lots of headroom and sliding (like a curtain) door panels on the front, $170.

If you need more room buy 2 and erect them next to each other. Now you have a 20'x20' space or a 10'x40' tunnel.

We had the thing up in a couple hours including unwrapping everything and reading the instructions. Pretty painless for a first timer. No tools were needed as everything is either slip fit, turn buckled or secured with pins. The only time I needed Mrs S3's (S3 & 2/3rds) help was when it was time to lift and put the legs on. I lifted, she put leg in hole, secure with pin, repeat. She was happy to take part in it's erection too.

I plan on upgrading the "pins" to something a little beefier just for my own sanity. I also want to put rebar in the ground and place each of the 8 legs down over it. Still working on the guying ideas since it'll be next to an RV on one long side.

So far it handles the breezes in my backyard just fine. The real test will be next month when I take it camping on the beach. If it survives beach camping it'll survive BM no problem.

On a side note, Dallas: I'd be cautious of bending my own connectors. The bending will weaken the metal in exactly the place you want it to be strongest.

S3

spoteditor · Post by **spoteditor** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:40 pm

This sounds like an great idea. Also, it's been tried and tested by several groups here.

I have been trying to find it on-line with no luck (I must be a dumb ass). The closest I got was a really fragile looking 10x10 patio canopy on the costco site. I'm really interested in the 10x20, with 'curtain' side panels.

If anyone finds a link, could they post it. Big Thanks.

P.S. 20x10 shade in a couple of hours, all the pieces supplied and cheap. This is a hard to beat combination.

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:45 pm

spoteditor wrote:
If anyone finds a link, could they post it. Big Thanks.

P.S. 20x10 shade in a couple of hours, all the pieces supplied and cheap. This is a hard to beat combination.

I'll second that - if someone finds a link p-message me as well. Tho I like the wood if the carports hold up that might be the way to go...

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:50 pm

holes

we buried the 4x4s about 6 inches into the ground so they would not walk when the structure vibrated (it had a pretty high resonant frequency once all the turnbuckles were tightened.) No need to go deeper as each post had several hundred pounds of downward force and all the sheer strength came from the guy wires. All the cables were pre measured, cut and finished off playa. It took 3 guys a long day to put it up.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:19 pm

safetythird wrote:So far it handles the breezes in my backyard just fine. The real test will be next month when I take it camping on the beach. If it survives beach camping it'll survive BM no problem.

On a side note, Dallas: I'd be cautious of bending my own connectors. The bending will weaken the metal in exactly the place you want it to be strongest.

S3

Yeah, thanks for posting this. I read someone else's post about the car shelter thing and thougt that that might be the way to go (mainly because it has built-in sidewalls, something I'd have to buy separately and more expensively if I did a straightforward conduit + connectors + tarp kit). I saw one in my Harbor Freight catalog just today.

On the side note: I doubt I'd build my own. It'd end-up being a big mess. :D

Anybody got a direct link to the costco car shelter thing?

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:19 am

My playa project is coming to life under a plastic carport. It gets damn hot in there at 65°f here in the north west. We must run a fan to take the top-heat off. Lately I've seen a 10×16 in the adds. The top and sides are one. Also the cover is reflective. This might be a little better. Saw on in 01 where they had cut 3/4 circles all over it. It let the wind out still there was plenty of shade.

share your non-dome shelter blue prints

share your non-dome shelter blue prints

shelter

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good 'ol fashioned html

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costco car port

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