Thank you for Not "Gifting" Me

[swampdog]

Huh. This thread has given me a lot to think about. I'm coming back for my second year, and one thing I felt I was "lacking" last year was something to gift away a moderately large amount of. My idea for this year was to make small bottles of black-light-glow soap bubbles - I figure I can make a hundred or so under $50 and scale linearly if I wanted to. Would that just be junk?

The cool thing about this thread is, it gave me the realization that WHATEVER I do, SOMEBODY's going to find it annoying. So I guess I'll just please myself.

[Rian Jackson]

Perhaps, at the least, this can be seen as a dissenting sector of the populace, one that doesn't buy the trinkets culture that BM is creating, one that doesn't need it.

At the least, it seems like a call to think and to act with intention, to evaluate these principles and to find what core of them does (or doesn't) really work, and to modify our individual behaviour accordingly. Seems like part of this 'radical self-reliance' should mean thinking for yourself - even if that means questioning the popular meaning of things like 'gifting.'

What place do trinkets have in the society we share? What makes a meaningful interaction? Some trinkets might be useful, or beneficial... to some people. It certainly doesn't mean that all of them are.

For myself, the ones that impact me are those that were created and given with thought, time, and energy involved. The rest are too often just clutter for the pocket, the tent, the desert floor, and eventually the landfill. And for what? So we can say we are generous?

This year, I think it is going to be my challenge to manifest the desired result of gifting without trinkets. I've done it here and there, sometimes by accident, in the past. But that's the plan - how can we enrich people's lives rather than clutter them? What does it mean to give (fuck that 'to gift' shit) truly?

I welcome anyone who'd like to join me in this.

[Rian Jackson]

Hey Swampdog -

Sorry for the two posts in a row; I was composing when yours landed.

What if - and this doesn't mean I'm saying you 'should' do this - instead of giving out little bubble things you dedicated yourself to spending some time each day making people smile with your bubble stuff? What if you had a larger bubble wand, and learned to dance with it? Let others try it? Invited people into something beautiful that makes very little garbage and will give a lot back to you?

Just a thought, eh?

[HughMungus]

The cool thing about this thread is, it gave me the realization that WHATEVER I do, SOMEBODY's going to find it annoying.

So, so, so, so, so true.

The key is to not care. :D

Edit: And not only annoying...I think one thing the original poster might be feeling is that if he's gifted that he then feels bad that he doesn't have the resources nor the inclination to gift back. It's like the "homeless" in my neighborhood who do a song or dance a jig. That's a really great routine you got there, buddy, but you really haven't given me jack shit.

p.s. What's weird is that in my five visits to Burning Man, the only gifts I've gotten have been stuff that people actually made themselves.

[HughMungus]

This year, I think it is going to be my challenge to manifest the desired result of gifting without trinkets. I've done it here and there, sometimes by accident, in the past. But that's the plan - how can we enrich people's lives rather than clutter them? What does it mean to give (fuck that 'to gift' shit) truly?

1. You can never go wrong with gum (sealed packs so the receiver doesn't think you're trying to spike them). You know how much people like gum sometimes, right?

2. I'm hoping that my camp this year will be a place where people can make gifts that they've made themselves so that if someone does get the urge to create something themselves, they can come to our camp. [Please, god, let this camp idea work.]

[AntiM]

In the You CAn't Please Everyone category: I hate gum. I chew it for aout ten minutes tops, then look for a place to spit it out. Euw, sticky gooey dust encrusted MOOP.

So there.

[unjonharley]

In the You CAn't Please Everyone category: I hate gum. I chew it for aout ten minutes tops, then look for a place to spit it out. Euw, sticky gooey dust encrusted MOOP.

So there.

~
That's as bad as a snot rocket.

[Rian Jackson]

Um, DallasPlaya, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you're completely misjudging the OP's reasons. I could be wrong, but I think you're far enough off track you fell off the map completely. The baggage drop was at the last station.

AntiM, I also loathe gum, so I hear you. But what I don't get is why, when I'm sitting here looking toward a goal of not exchanging meaningless crap, DP's answer to that is GUM?? Yes, I know the potential benefits. And also the MOOP nightmare it can create. How does a pack of GUM indicate any particular connection has occurred? What's so truly enriching about GUM? Are we so indoctrinated into a society of tangibles that GUM holds deep meaning?

Truly, truly flabbergasted.

[unjonharley]

Sorry folks, I'm gifting myself this year. A very artie fartie MV, a nicely out fitted disabilty scooter and a tower with a "man on top to help me find home. I am how ever offering to share my work for your enjoyment.

[Rian Jackson]

I sure wouldn't mind being gifted with - I mean, given a bit of your time. I'll make the coffee...

[HughMungus]

Um, DallasPlaya, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you're completely misjudging the OP's reasons. I could be wrong, but I think you're far enough off track you fell off the map completely. The baggage drop was at the last station.

AntiM, I also loathe gum, so I hear you. But what I don't get is why, when I'm sitting here looking toward a goal of not exchanging meaningless crap, DP's answer to that is GUM?? Yes, I know the potential benefits. And also the MOOP nightmare it can create. How does a pack of GUM indicate any particular connection has occurred? What's so truly enriching about GUM? Are we so indoctrinated into a society of tangibles that GUM holds deep meaning?

Truly, truly flabbergasted.

First, I was theorizing as to why it makes him feel bad enough to post about it when most other people just deal with it and move on. Second, regarding gum, I was replying to a particular person about giving something. When did we attach this "deep spiritual meaning" to gifting?How does saying "Hi" or "Nice costume" in lieu of a gift indicate any particular connection has occurred? And no, I really don't want to argue about gifting. If you don't want a gift, say no. If you don't want to say no, suffer. God what a stupid thing to get bent out of shape over.

[blyslv]

First, I was theorizing as to why it makes him feel bad enough to post about it when most other people just deal with it and move on.

What theory? He's asking people to reduce the amount of MOOP that exists at the end of the event. The OP identified a strategy to do that by asking people to leave crap at home. That served as a good springboard into a discussion of what it means to give someone a gift. I think it's useful.

You can tell people to "deal with it" or even just to fuck off. But that's not why I go to BM. Part of the reason is the experiment in community (drink!) I see, and trying to get people aware of both the consequences of bringing stuff, any stuff; and the quality of their interactions is one aspect of it.

[Rian Jackson]

For me, it's less about attaching some deep spiritual meaning to it than living intentionally and reducing waste. Is that my own personal trajectory? Yes. Am I saying everyone else has to engage in that? No. I think part of what many of us are railing against is that people are coming into this community believing that they are supposed to make, or if they can't make, buy, large numbers of small items to give out to other people. What I'm asking is what's the point? If you sit down and consider it and then decide that the point is to make sure everyone has something in their pockets - fine. But that's not it for me. And who's talking about thowing out an offhand comment, Dallas? I'm talking about someone sitting down at camp with me. I'll make you a pot of Arabic coffee and we'll sit and drink it and learn about each other. That's not necessarily deep and spiritual, nor is deep and spiritual something I will necessarily run off looking for. But you will have to spare 15 minutes of your busy day for it, as will I. Cause it takes time to make, you know?

When are we going to start thinking about why we're doing what we're doing? Both at BM and in the rest of our lives?

I have no problem with a physical playa gift that's had some thought put into it. I may take it; I may not. But can we stop propogating this idea that we must carry trinkets?

I still have some of those gifts. I know who gave me each art piece. I appreciate them. I don't know who gave me ome of the plastic bobbles, because many of those people were eager to give an item, but didn't stop to give something of themselves.

If you're giving someone an item they're going to throw away a day later, and not investing any personal energy into it, are you giving them something or burdening them? Seems to me that sometimes people give things for their own personal gratification. And then, well, maybe it isn't really a gift.

[unjonharley]

Couple of years ago Grandfather gifted cut thunder eggs. You would get the native story along with the stone. They went over big with folks that have never been to the northwest. Once washed they are a nice coffee table item. He was very careful to pick the right stone for each person. He is an old very brown native born in 1911 and a great story teller. I'm sad that he feels to tired to go "BM" this year. It's great watching peoples faces as he tells a story. My 6 kids love him.

[Rian Jackson]

Holy shit. I'd like to meet him someday.

Sounds like he's got his head screwed on straight.

[HughMungus]

First, I was theorizing as to why it makes him feel bad enough to post about it when most other people just deal with it and move on.

What theory? He's asking people to reduce the amount of MOOP that exists at the end of the event. The OP identified a strategy to do that by asking people to leave crap at home. That served as a good springboard into a discussion of what it means to give someone a gift. I think it's useful.

You can tell people to "deal with it" or even just to fuck off. But that's not why I go to BM. Part of the reason is the experiment in community (drink!) I see, and trying to get people aware of both the consequences of bringing stuff, any stuff; and the quality of their interactions is one aspect of it.

And then some people said "I don't want to make you feel bad" etc.

We're putting the blame for moop on the gifters, not the giftees. All I'm saying is that if someone gives you something, say no or take it back to your camp and throw it away. How hard is that.

[HughMungus]

For me, it's less about attaching some deep spiritual meaning to it than living intentionally and reducing waste. Is that my own personal trajectory? Yes. Am I saying everyone else has to engage in that? No. I think part of what many of us are railing against is that people are coming into this community believing that they are supposed to make, or if they can't make, buy, large numbers of small items to give out to other people.

No one is obligated to gift. But that's not the point the OP made. Maybe the OP should have mentioned that and that there are immaterial ways to gift people instead of blaming the gifters for what giftees do.

What I'm asking is what's the point? If you sit down and consider it and then decide that the point is to make sure everyone has something in their pockets - fine. But that's not it for me. And who's talking about thowing out an offhand comment, Dallas? I'm talking about someone sitting down at camp with me. I'll make you a pot of Arabic coffee and we'll sit and drink it and learn about each other.

I was thinking more about the gifts-in-passing (e.g., hey nice costume, hey nice camp, hey whatever, have a gift or even, hey you look like you're lost and lonely, have a gift -- you never know, it could change someone's burn). Yes, put a little more thought into your gifts, but, again, don't blame the gifters.

I'm glad we talked about this even though we disagree slightly about it. Maybe now people will not only put more thought into their gifts but the people who are getting something they don't want might actually be able to say "no" and/or dispose of it properly instead of creating more work for everybody else.

p.s. Last year, our neighbors, who we LOVED tried to give me a CD. I said, "Don't bother, I won't listen to it." No one's feelings got hurt.

[robotland]

Remember- GIFTS don't harsh peoples' mellow....GIFTERS DO.

I remember dragging my baked ass in from the deep playa in'03, and having someone smack a cold Guiness in my hand. Now THAT was a good gift.

[unjonharley]

Some go to Burning Man for a week of fucked up party. Others wounder around with there self centered head up there ass. I'm sure that's not all who miss the bigger piicture. Visit with folks from all over the world. You just might meet some one that could mark a great mile stone in your life. What greater gift could you have.

[Rian Jackson]

Apologies, Dallas, I just re read some and, as I'm typing on the fly (though not thinking on the fly at the moment) I wasn't terribly clear and made it look as though I was expecting each meeting to be some epiphany. My poor writing more than your reading.

I still stand by the basic premise of what I was saying. I value thought and intention.

Much of this, of course, is my own reaction to my continued examination of a materially oriented culture and the impact that it has on me as a human being. I realise that although I may value intangibles more than baubles, others may not.

[AntiM]

I had a gift rack by our camp for a couple years. It was fun to see what came and went, but by the end of the week it was a trash receptacle for all types of plastic crap and dusty half-packs of mystery snacks. I dutifully hauled it home, gave some of it to nieces and nephews; the rest still sits in my workroom along with strands of plastic beads I never wear. BUT! It is a potential art project although I have no idea what will come of it.

I do appreciate even the cheapest piece of crap because it means the person is trying even if they didn't give a "good" gift. Sigh. I'm such a sap. That's why my house is full to the rafters of sentimental pieces of flotsam and jetsom.

[Rian Jackson]

Yeah, I can get sentimental like that too. And I can appreciate that people feel like they need to give some object away and are responding to that. What I'm challenging is why they have been put in a spot where they feel that they Must Find A Good Gift At All Costs. I've heard (and in the past, felt) enough of this panic to know it is out there in large amounts.

What is being created here that people feel they are expected to find something, anything, to put in another's hand? How might we rework this concept so that it's not one more hoop you jump through? What would happen if gifts were given because we had something to give rather than trinkets were hunted for because we were told it's the Way We Do It?

[unjonharley]

Yeah, I can get sentimental like that too. And I can appreciate that people feel like they need to give some object away and are responding to that. What I'm challenging is why they have been put in a spot where they feel that they Must Find A Good Gift At All Costs. I've heard (and in the past, felt) enough of this panic to know it is out there in large amounts.

What is being created here that people feel they are expected to find something, anything, to put in another's hand? How might we rework this concept so that it's not one more hoop you jump through? What would happen if gifts were given because we had something to give rather than trinkets were hunted for because we were told it's the Way We Do It?

~
The above bit needs to be on the Burning Man front page. Thank you Baby

[AntiM]

I do understand the pressure to gift, I am very susceptible to it myself. I come from a gifty for any reason even unbirthdays family, so I really fall prey to the idea I must give people things.

I told a newbie at the regional who was worried about gifting, "There's 40,000 people there, you can't gift them all. Don't try. Bring your handmade necklaces and hand out a few if it makes you happy, but relax, they don't shoot you for not gifting. Not everyone will expect something."

This from a woman making mounds of pendants and painting like mad to stock the art gifting Home for Wayward Art. One of these days I'll take my own advice.

But I like making pendants ...

[robotland]

Visit with folks from all over the world. You just might meet some one that could mark a great mile stone in your life. What greater gift could you have.

Last year I met Jesus at Bruno's! (I'm PRETTY sure it wasn't THAT Jesus, but you never know.....)

Some of my favorite people are ones that I've only met once or twice- Guess where.

[stuart]

To DP

When did we attach this "deep spiritual meaning" to gifting?

No one is obligated to gift.

if you read the Dogma that is being spewed by the org right now you will find that 'deep spiritual meaning' being firmly affixed with crazy glue. The amount of rhetoric that is generated around the 'gifting' concept is ubiquitous and I would think that any newb who did a little bit of research would feel an obligation to bring crap to give away on the playa. This time of year this and other BBS that are topical to BM are loaded with rookies asking for advice WRT what they should give. I think the OPs intent was to try and let folks know that, contrary to what they may have heard, you are not obligated to give items to people. I think the org does not intend 'gift economy' to get boiled down to 'give out candy' but the hyper mystic language that they use has been proven time and again to be a poor choice for communicating basic ideal. My favorite example of this was the 'floating world' theme of a few years back. Larry Harvey gave us the usual essay about the theme, rich with Cambellian and Jungian references. What did the masses digest this quite squishy and complicated ideal into? "Aaarrrrrrrr! Pirates!" So it goes with 'the gift economy'.


Anywho, to the dude with the UV bubbles...

I dig the idea. Just make sure that you aren't blindly handing them out. People like it when you enable them to feel really cool. To feel like they are a vibrant part of whatever context you might be standing in the middle of. Along the lines of Rian's thoughts, if I had the bubbles I'd go to a heavy black light enviro and start playing with them. When you see folks who are interested in your gig, enable them to play and be cool by giving them some of their own to play with. BTW, can I have some?

And to continue this ramble...
in addition to my camp and the artsy shit I work on, the things I end up giving out are the things I already have for myself. I just bring extra knowing this is going to happen. Extra beer, extra gum, extra smokes, extra scotch, etc.. I don't 'gift' people with it (this term is starting to sound like mild assault to me). I simply give them some of mine if they seem interested. Last year I was on the magic carpet and some rookies got on. We started chatting. They were pretty nice and really excited to be there. It's fun to talk to the newbs. After a few minutes I dip into my pack for a Tecate. After a few sips one of the guys I was chatting with asks me for a sip. No problem. He went to give it back and I told him to just keep it cuz I was getting near to my camp where I had plenty more. He seemed pretty moved by the fact that I just gave up my beer for him. It made me feel really good.

[HughMungus]

Remember- GIFTS don't harsh peoples' mellow....GIFTERS DO.

I remember dragging my baked ass in from the deep playa in'03, and having someone smack a cold Guiness in my hand. Now THAT was a good gift.

Boy, good thing you wanted it or you would have had to throw it on the ground in disgust. :P

[unjonharley]

Gifting works for me. When the kids were little I had spent most of the money on outfiting them for school. It was getting cold and I needed a coat. I went to a old store called the Metro hoping for a cheapy. The prices were still to high. The owner saw me looking at the prices and walking away. Soon he came across the store with a coat in hand. He ased how much money I had. I said $14. That's enough for this coat and rang it up. Later that winter I come upon a auto wreak. I put my coat on a victim. The police had arrived so I got into my warm car and left. About 15 years later a woman was in my wifes dog grooming parlor. She notice the wifes last name. Then she ask if my wife knew me. It was the person from the wreak. A week later she returned the coat. That coat is retired to the last hanger in the closet now. Waiting for someone to need it again.

[HughMungus]

Apologies, Dallas, I just re read some and, as I'm typing on the fly (though not thinking on the fly at the moment) I wasn't terribly clear and made it look as though I was expecting each meeting to be some epiphany. My poor writing more than your reading.

I still stand by the basic premise of what I was saying. I value thought and intention.

Much of this, of course, is my own reaction to my continued examination of a materially oriented culture and the impact that it has on me as a human being. I realise that although I may value intangibles more than baubles, others may not.

I think we agree, mostly. I think the best gifts ARE immaterial. But there's not always time or context for that. If someone gives me a gift, I get giddy over the thought behind it, not what it actually is or if I want/need it or not. But hey, that's just me.

[HughMungus]

if you read the Dogma that is being spewed by the org right now you will find that 'deep spiritual meaning' being firmly affixed with crazy glue. The amount of rhetoric that is generated around the 'gifting' concept is ubiquitous and I would think that any newb who did a little bit of research would feel an obligation to bring crap to give away on the playa. This time of year this and other BBS that are topical to BM are loaded with rookies asking for advice WRT what they should give. I think the OPs intent was to try and let folks know that, contrary to what they may have heard, you are not obligated to give items to people.

Yeah, I think the problem is that people mis-understand the concept of "gift economy".

The gifting I was thinking of in regards to the OP was not random gifting, but, gifting in appreciation for something that someone else has done or gifting when it seems like it would help someone else, NOT just gifting because that's "how you're supposed to participate in burning man".