Serving Alcohol? Read This:

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:33 am

From the 2005 Survival Guide:

•Serving alcohol to minors is a violation of the law.
It is a misdemeanor in Nevada to give alcoholic beverages to any person under the age of 21 in a public place. Although Burning Man has some characteristics of a private event, please don’t forget that with respect to public safety laws, most of Black Rock City is considered public space. For example, if your theme camp has a “bar” open to participants where alcoholic drinks are gifted then it is considered a public space in the eyes of the law. Therefore, it is the responsibility of the person serving alcohol to check IDs and ensure that everyone in the immediate vicinity is at least 21 years old. It is illegal for minors to consume or possess alcoholic beverages in public,as well as loiter where alcoholic beverages are being served. Also, it is a misdemeanor for anyone under 21 years old to pass him or herself off as being of age. Be aware that undercover law enforcement officers will be policing the areas of Black Rock City where alcoholic beverages are being served. Please do your part to keep our under-aged participants safe and lawful!

Now some people might be reading this (IF they're reading this at all) and thinking "They can't really be serious about this shit can they?"

well, read on:

The Pershing County Sheriff’s office worked 27 cases, made four arrests (down by one from last year's five arrests) and issued two citations (down from the nine issued a year ago). This year Pershing County Sheriff's deputies conducted alcohol compliance checks at six locations inside Black Rock City where alcohol was being either given away or bartered. "All six locations failed the checks and were issued warnings," said Sheriff Ron Skinner. "We will ensure that State laws relating to alcohol use and distribution are followed and enforced inside Black Rock City just as they are elsewhere in the county. We are especially concerned that alcohol not be distributed to minors attending the event. This is an issue that we will work with BLM and Black Rock City to resolve before next year's Burning Man."

quoted from:
http://www.nv.blm.gov/Winnemucca/press_ ... r05-01.htm
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a ... _id=00Blyz

Please keep this in mind if your camp is serving alcohol this year. It appears that enforcement will be taking place.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:22 am

tick-tock.....another minute closer to midnight...

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:04 pm

At least they're being upfront about it... They could have said little and racked up the citations when they started hitting bars and shutting them down. Instead they tell you what they're looking at (and for) so those camps running a bar at BRC knows what to expect, and (hopefully) how to avoid getting stung...

Back in the old days, I had to take a class to get a permit to sell alcohol to run a booth at the local flea market, and what they stressed through the whole thing was (1) ask for an ID, (2) 1 ID=1 sale, (3) don't sell to someone visibly intoxicated, and (4) don't be afraid to say "no way".

Be ready for anything.

Some of the gigs they tried on us - ABC in Sacto had a guy who was 19 but looked in his mid 20's. Another was buying a beer for a friend, but when they pointed the friend out it was an obvious kid (13-ish). My favorite (and one of the other stands got popped for this one - OUCH!) - having someone act drunk and try to buy, only to become instantly sober as they and their partner wrote out the citation. (I saw it go down, and at the time it was not* funny...).

It may be a hassle to comply with their rules, but it's a hell of a lot bigger hassle goin' to Lovelock to settle your bar's "indiscretions", and maybe even being asked to strike camp and vacate pre-burn.

BBS

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:19 am

Well, it certainly raises more questions for me than it answers for example:

it is the responsibility of the person serving alcohol to check IDs and ensure that everyone in the immediate vicinity is at least 21 years old. It is illegal for minors to consume or possess alcoholic beverages in public,as well as loiter where alcoholic beverages are being served

What does "immediate vicinity" mean? 10 ft. from the bar? 20 ft, does it mean my entire public camp area? If I have a bar adjacent to a dance floor, do I have to ensure that everyone on the dance floor is 21+? Where does my responsiblity begin, and where does it end?

How exactly does one guess the age of a person covered in blue paint, walking on stilts or wearing a giant puppet? Oh, right we'll all be carrying our I.D.'s with us!

Please do your part to keep our under-aged participants safe and lawful!

Because apparently "Radical Self Reliance" does not apply to those under the legal drinking age! I never knew it was my job to keep anyone safe at Burning Man.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:40 am

I never knew it was my job to keep anyone safe at Burning Man.

I have two thoughts after reading that. The first is a quote from an Arkansas State Trooper who once told me "ignorance of the law is no excuse", and the second is "use common sense". If you have a bar the bartender needs to exercise reasonable and prudent measures to prevent minors from getting drinks. Hardly anyone carries ID out there so you can't check that. So it really comes down to a best effort screening thing. Did you ask if they were 21? If the person is clearly not of age did you send them away? Yeah, the kids can lie to you. But since there's no ID's really to be checked you made the effort. What more can you do? And that's the point...with hundreds of other "bars" out there, I'd think that common sense would kick in and if you were charged a judge would see that. That may be an idyllic pipe dream and an attorney may rip the idea to shreds but I wanted to toss it out here anyway.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:28 am

Again from the Survival Guide:

Therefore, it is the responsibility of the person serving alcohol to check IDs and ensure that everyone in the immediate vicinity is at least 21 years old.

The Survival Guide is saying you have to check IDs.

How exactly are you supposed to ensure that everyone in the immediate vicinity is at least 21 years old when your bar has no walls, no single entry point, and is adjacent a dance floor with 500 people?

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:56 pm

When I was a kid, the rule was a "double reach" - if you were under 21, you had to be at least 2x the distance you could reach to the bar. Most places back then (as I remember) had a line on the floor about 6 feet or so from the bar that kids could not cross. That makes it easy. IF we had a camp with a bar gig, that's prolly what I'd do.

That was then, tho, and the local L.E.Agency (Pershing County S.O.) may have more specific rules. You could prolly call them and they'd tell you what the rules were for "establishments serving alcohol". Then you could plan accordingly. Or look it up on the web. I bet it's there somewhere.

(Edited once for misspellings)

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:58 pm

it aint fucking Disneyland.

leave your fucking minors at home.

joel, ornerier than thou

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:35 pm

joel the ornery wrote:it aint fucking Disneyland.

leave your fucking minors at home.

Joel.
As politely as it can be said, Fuck you! 2 years ago I took my then 15 year old sister Tiffany with me to Burning Man. Turns out in hindsight it was the best thing I could have done for her. More confidence, a flowering artistic ability...it had a huge influence on her and still does to this day.

"Fucking minors" have just as much right to be on the playa as each and every "fucking adult" does. It's a "community"...communities include, not exclude.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:54 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:
Joel.
As politely as it can be said, Fuck you! 2 years ago I took my then 15 year old sister Tiffany with me to Burning Man.

Was that so you could see her naked?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:17 pm

That's sick.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:03 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:That's sick.

Do you have pictures?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:10 pm

No pictures. I'll offer you a friendly link to some people that would be very curious about your interest in non-legal age girls though.
http://tinyurl.com/cq5r6
Have a nice day! (And let's get this thread back on topic)

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:18 pm

The line Sue was yaking about sounds good. Nail a yellow tape to the grond 6 8 10 feet from the bar post a sign. Bet it would make the law happy. Keep em off you skin too.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:41 pm

unjonharley wrote:The line Sue was yaking about sounds good. Nail a yellow tape to the grond 6 8 10 feet from the bar post a sign. Bet it would make the law happy. Keep em off you skin too.

Honestly, would that really prevent underage participants from trying to barter free alcohol? Or is this merely a way to CYA? It's a great question. I had no idea before reading on this board how many undercover LEO's were protecting us.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:45 pm

Cabanasprings wrote:
unjonharley wrote:The line Sue was yaking about sounds good. Nail a yellow tape to the grond 6 8 10 feet from the bar post a sign. Bet it would make the law happy. Keep em off you skin too.
Honestly, would that really prevent underage participants from trying to barter free alcohol? Or is this merely a way to CYA? It's a great question. I had no idea before reading on this board how many undercover LEO's were protecting us.

~
So, How long have you been living w/your head in the sand?

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:50 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:
joel the ornery wrote:it aint fucking Disneyland.

leave your fucking minors at home.
Joel.
As politely as it can be said, Fuck you! 2 years ago I took my then 15 year old sister Tiffany with me to Burning Man. Turns out in hindsight it was the best thing I could have done for her. More confidence, a flowering artistic ability...it had a huge influence on her and still does to this day.

"Fucking minors" have just as much right to be on the playa as each and every "fucking adult" does. It's a "community"...communities include, not exclude.

you are harshing my experience... man.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:57 pm

Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

You are right. This is will be my fourth year and I had no idea. I had heard a few stories but in four years I have only seen one person busted for pot and that was because he was loading his pipe in the middle of the street. First day and they took his entire stash. Very good lesson about leaving all your eggs in one basket.

We don't "party" outside our own tent, hence the sand in the hair.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:04 pm

Cabanasprings wrote:Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

You are right. This is will be my fourth year and I had no idea. I had heard a few stories but in four years I have only seen one person busted for pot and that was because he was loading his pipe in the middle of the street. First day and they took his entire stash. Very good lesson about leaving all your eggs in one basket.

We don't "party" outside our own tent, hence the sand in the hair.

~
Good party placement. STill!! they can pop ya if they can see past your tent flap. If they can see you pass a bowl your far game. I don't think they would be above moving a little canvas to follow there nose.

tigerlillie · Post by **tigerlillie** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:44 pm

I have never taken my daughters to BM but I was going to bring my 12
year old out this year, but with people like you interested in minors, and nude pics, hell, I think even I will skip the event myself sick bastard. :twisted:

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:18 pm

Don't let a few eplaya posters scare you off. BRC is like most any other place in that you'll find all types out there, the good, the bad, and unfortunately a few that have some serious issues. The LLC last year made it very clear that they support bringing kids to the playa, and they definitely put their support behind Kidsville. I stayed in Kidsville 2 years in a row, once with Tiffany and I, last year I was a guest of Das Bus. And you can't ask for a better group of people to be around. Damn fine people.

When Becca went missing for a little bit last year the response was absolutely phenomenal. She had went exploring for a few minutes but once it was noticed that she was "missing", wow, the Rangers and others were lightning fast to respond. She was found in about 10 minutes. I hope Das Bus doesn't get mad at me for bringing that up...but things happen and the story illustrates how burners watch out for the kids. I have to add that Kidsville and others won't be your babysitters, you have to be a responsible parent or guardian. But if you do your part the playa provides....just make sure you've covered your part of the deal well.

Anyway I'm going off topic but again, the eplaya is not an equal representation of the people you'll find on the playa. So don't let the previous content scare you off. It's the ultra rare exception to the norm even on the eplaya.

tigerlillie · Post by **tigerlillie** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:08 pm

thank you for the tips- I usually don't like to let my kids roam free will
I keep track of them at all times if possible, "paranoid parent syndrome"
as some say, that is part of being a caring and loving parent, I dont' think it is the repsonsibilities of others to watch after and should not be their job to watch after your children on the playa if you bring them. But it is goog to know that there is support there when you need it.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:30 pm

Cabanasprings wrote:
unjonharley wrote:The line Sue was yaking about sounds good. Nail a yellow tape to the grond 6 8 10 feet from the bar post a sign. Bet it would make the law happy. Keep em off you skin too.
Honestly, would that really prevent underage participants from trying to barter free alcohol? Or is this merely a way to CYA? It's a great question. I had no idea before reading on this board how many undercover LEO's were protecting us.

merely another way to CYA...I think it has become a matter of playing the game enough to keep them happy. Kind of like the IRS (something sad there that attending Burningman now is being compared to avoiding an IRS audit). Do enough so that you appear to be in compliance, or at least not worth the trouble (especially when there are so many clueless others presenting easy pickin's to the LEO's). I like the line idea and a sign. At least it is an attempt to do something positive (however slight) that doesn't require something totally absurd like expecting everyone to carry ID's at Burningman.

On the other hand, I think it might be funny to have a totally swank bar, top-notch liquer, show girls (and guys!), air-conditioning, the whole nine yards. But require ID's at the door...no exceptions (explain that BM is now requiring it).

DNAinVEGAS · Post by **DNAinVEGAS** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:35 am

A few things caught my eye reading these posts. I'm a 10+ year Burner and have some ideas about all this. I have been creating an adult theme camp for 8 years on the Esplanade and this is how my reputation stays high with the public AND staff/law enforcement:

First, if you make an "attempt" to deter minors from your "over 18/21" activities, they respect you and will basically leave you alone. I post signs and have door people monitoring who comes inside my Casino. Several years ago 2 gigling naked girls carrying beers wanted in. We asked their age, they giggled, and said they were 18. Clearly they were not. Our discretion was NOT to let them in. Yes, they were pissed, but our conscience was clear and no possible legal problems. Potential problem solved. However, if they "look" WAY over 18/21 but are not, and got through anyway, all attempts were made and we "might" get only a slap on the wrist if problems came from it. Point being that if you make a "solid" attempt, they respect you and your camp for doing so.

If you don't have walls around your camp, post some signs saying something like "We support the law, NO minors served" or something like that. It shows an attempt to conform to the law and makes staff and law enforment pleased. They understand that it's VERY difficult regulating everyone who visits your camp with all the people, but showing that your making and "attempt" goes a long way with them.

DNA

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:59 pm

DNAinVegas,

Sounds like you handled that situation well, and you know, on one hand I'm very much inclined to go along with what you are saying wrt: common sense, making an effort etc.

On the other hand this is what the LLC is saying:

it is the responsibility of the person serving alcohol to check IDs and ensure that everyone in the immediate vicinity is at least 21 years old.

The LLC, they are the people that meet with Law Enforcement. I'm guessing that they have a pretty good idea of what's going to happen wrt: enforcement of these rules. Now it could be that the LLC is simply covering it's own legal ass here by telling people to ask for ID. On the other hand it could be that LEO is going to be sending out decoys that look 21 trying to get served and writing tickets to anyone that dosen't ask them for ID, and have asked the LLC to express this to the participants of the event.

In the end, you have to do your own risk assesment.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:26 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:
joel the ornery wrote:it aint fucking Disneyland.

leave your fucking minors at home.
Joel.
As politely as it can be said, Fuck you! 2 years ago I took my then 15 year old sister Tiffany with me to Burning Man. Turns out in hindsight it was the best thing I could have done for her. More confidence, a flowering artistic ability...it had a huge influence on her and still does to this day.

"Fucking minors" have just as much right to be on the playa as each and every "fucking adult" does. It's a "community"...communities include, not exclude.

it isn't just my opinion.

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 183#165183

Otisserie · Post by **Otisserie** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:14 pm

I don't know how they do it in Nevada, but in California when the ABC sends out it's underage decoys they have certain rules they have to follow, the most relevant of which is that the decoy cannot lie about their age (nor can they use fake IDs). If Nevada operates the same way, then you can protect yourself from the decoys at least by simply asking any young-looking patrons if they're over 21.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:30 pm

Follow your link. Then look at mine. Beyond that, no comment.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:32 pm

Kinetic, how do you know you didn't scar your sisters mind for life?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:52 pm

I don't know how to answer that...but I'll try. It all started when she heard me talking about the event and began asking questions and doing her own research. She asked me if I would take her, the question was then put in front of everyone in the family where the pros and cons were discussed. Finally her parents, not me approved it. And that was that.

Fast forward 2 years and I no longer see the shy, introverted girl, I see a very opinionated, National Honor Society and Debate team type, very creative young woman who came out of her shell and really changed her life. She thinks that Burning Man was a catalyst for change. So if that's scarring, well there's no regrets from her family. Or from me. Or from her, and it's her opinion that matters most to me.

Serving Alcohol? Read This:

Serving Alcohol? Read This:

taking minors to burningman

thanks for the tips

Just ask...