Water purchase on the playa?

willowRage · Post by **willowRage** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:57 am

Our camp is looking to buy ~550 gallons of water on the playa. We already met our weight limit and we can't haul water to the playa. Last year we purchased nonpotable water when we learned that a neighboring camp was buying some and we shared the expense.

A) Does anyone know who to contact to arrange water delivery? Johnny on the Spot (JOTS) was suggested but I'm having a devil of a time finding contact info for them. Is there another company to consider or might you know JOTS phone number?

B) Would another camp also in need of water want share the expense with us this year ?

The water bought last year was nonpotable. Either potable or nonpotable will be ok with us this year we will be storing the water in 55 gallon potable water barrels and will pump+filter the water as needed.

Thanks,
~Robyn~
www.snuggletown.org

clerkkent · Post by **clerkkent** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:29 pm

Answer to A) using the wonderful yahoo yellow pages for Reno NV will get:

Johnny On The Spot Inc
(775) 826-5646
5355 Louie Ln
Reno, NV

Wakawaka · Post by **Wakawaka** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:27 pm

I'm curious, may I inquire what y'all plan on doing with 550 gal of water?

(Being lazy and not wanting to browse through your website....)

willowRage · Post by **willowRage** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:30 pm

Water to be used by campers for food, drinking, cooking, cleaning, shower.

hunter S · Post by **hunter S** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:01 pm

Stupid question maybe but...How do you get 500 gallons of grey water off the plya?? (took out 50 for evap)

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:16 pm

That's a damn good question, but it wasn't the one I had... which is a little more critical... Mine is this:

Non-potable water is just that - non-potable. Unless you have a heck of a filter facility (and they better be really good treatment systems), you can't expect to drink it woithout getting violently ill or worse. Normally NP water comes from sewage treatment plants and is used for things like irrigation, toilet flushing, etc. It can also have major metal and/or chemical contamination. Camping filters and whatnot are designed to process fresh water, not non-potable water. Big dif.

I know 2 tons of water is a lot to haul up there, but it's a lot less hassle than having a camp with a collective case of the runs or worse from, say, taking a shower and swallowing a mouthful or residue from dishwashing or food prep from a contaminated drinking water supply... Giardia is no fun. Arsenide poisoning is even less fun.

I plan on bringing enough water for our 2 people *plus* a bunch for common camp usage, and I suspect everyone else in the compound will as well. If EVERYONE brought up, say, a spare 30 gallons, in addition to what they need following the minimums, you would have no problem. Those 2.5 gal suitcases fit darn near anywhere! The plus side also being you're not asking your campmates to drink filtered effluent.

willowRage · Post by **willowRage** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:28 pm

Someone found an email for Karen at Johnnyspot.net. I emailed them to ask the following questions and await a reply:
1) Do you deliver water to Black Rock City and if so on what days/times?
2) Is the water you can deliver potable or nonpotable?
3) If nonpotable can you tell me what the source of the water is or it's contaminants (so we know if it can be filtered and is so by what method).
4) What is the cost of the water?
5) Is there a minimum purchase amount?

The source of the nonpotable water can be highly variable. If it is pulled directly from say a river it's quality is likely to be good enough that basic filtration will do. If it's brown water (sewer) or from a source and chemically tainted that would alter if and how we'd filter it. It's all about the source. If they deliver potable that would be great. Time will tell.

As for getting rid of grey water we have a large evap pond in it will be placed giant swamp cooler I'm nearly done building which will increase the evaporation rate. The swamp cooler is 8'x4'x4' and uses a continuously cycling sump pump to move the water over permeable membrane in sheets across the width of the swamp cooler in 18 rows. A high output squirrel cage can be added to move air across the membranes if deamed necessary. What remains we can pack out.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:38 pm

Just FYI,

The Health Dept. will require that any water that comes in contact with participants outside your immediate camp mates be potable and from an approved source.

willowRage · Post by **willowRage** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:41 pm

That we kwew as we have filed for a food permit for our restaurant, Chez Snuggle, open to the playa on Tuesday night. That is water we will be bringing with us.

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:57 pm

What happens if this year is like 2000: it rains every day and with the cold and overcast conditions, water does not evaporate?

willowRage · Post by **willowRage** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:01 pm

Then we'll do what we did last year and pay to have it siphoned up.

willowRage · Post by **willowRage** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:02 pm

Are these genuine questions or all y'all playing devil's advocate?

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:03 pm

Hey - if it's raining what's a little grey water on the playa gonna hurt.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:31 pm

Are these genuine questions or all y'all playing devil's advocate?

both.

It's important that you have a contingency plan for removing all of that water should your evaporation idea not work and should you be unable to pay JOTS to siphon it off.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:37 pm

Chai Guy wrote:
Are these genuine questions or all y'all playing devil's advocate?
both.
It's important that you have a contingency plan for removing all of that water should your evaporation idea not work and should you be unable to pay JOTS to siphon it off.

have you considered arriving, getting all your equipment unloaded, and then making a trip back to Fernley or Reno to get your water, thereby being self-reliant (simplyfying the process by relying on yourself). it will cost 25 bucks per person to make the little provisions pilgrimage.

and, yes, you have to have a decent evaporation plan, IMHO.

be responsible, and have fun.

your unknown to you, uncle joel...

willowRage · Post by **willowRage** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:23 pm

Filled the 55 gallon drums will weigh 462 lbs, will have to be filled while they are in the bus or filled outside the buss and somehow loaded into the bus then transported and unloaded. Not an attractive endeavor.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:55 pm

Not an attractive endeavor.

Larry never promised you a rose garden.

We're not trying to come off as negative here, it's just JOT'S primary mission is to service the porta-potties and I've seen other participants come in there with the "expectation" that certain things were going to happen (like getting their RV's pumped out) and when that didn't happen because JOTS was overloaded "working for the man" the shit (literally) hit the fan.

So I think it's fine to set up JOTS as "Plan A" but I would seriously suggest coming up with a "Plan B" and maybe even a "Plan C" if this water is essential to the completion of your goals.

As for moving the water on and off the bus. I first would suggest the consideration of using smaller containers. Secondly I would suggest looking into a pump (first choice would be electrical, running off a generator or battery second choice would be a good manual pump)

willowRage · Post by **willowRage** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:10 pm

While all the commentary has been quite apropos and worth consideration there is still no answer for my two questions.

Sharky · Post by **Sharky** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:12 am

Just a thought, but if you do purchase non-potable water that is delivered, you may want to find out what the water is being hauled in. If it is a tank truck, it could have been used for hauling just about anything before they fill it up with your water! Even if the water has been pulled out of a river, it could be hauled in a tank that has been used to haul sewer treatment plant effluent or industrial settling pond water......... just a thought.

Janka · Post by **Janka** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:43 am

Funny thing... for me part of the challenge/fun of BM is the whole "pack in, pack out" self-reliance ideology. If I could not bring all my water myself (or, our water by ourselves), I would probably not look for ways to buy it on-playa, but for ways to pack differently so that we could make it.

But of course I am not doing any of those megalomaniac art projects. And I am working with the damn international flight weight limit anyway, so I have to rationalize that into a fun challenge or I go crazy. ;)

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:44 am

willowRage wrote:Filled the 55 gallon drums will weigh 462 lbs, will have to be filled while they are in the bus or filled outside the buss and somehow loaded into the bus then transported and unloaded. Not an attractive endeavor.

The trick is to fill all the drums but one. Fill the drums (less the 1) after getting them located in the transport vehicle/trailer (remember to keep the load balanced side-to-side). When you get on site, remove the empty to your water sorage area, and pump (or siphon) from a full one into the empty. Put the new empty where you want it, siphon from the next. Cointinue until all your water barrels on the ground are full. THEN, if you need to haul greywater, you have empty drums to haul it out with - just reverse the procedure (this time using a pump instead of the syphon system)...

Oh, another trick... IF the last barrel you empty is one that has a removable top as well as the bung (VS one that just has a bung) you can put a plastic bag in it and use it as a trash container that you can actually get in and stomp on to compact - end of event, pull the bag out, and you have your grey water barrel back. (Or put the bags of trash into the empty barrels for transport away from the playa).

Self contained and easy. All you need is a siphon hose, a pump. and the power for the pump. And the barrels. Then all you need is a way to haul up the 12 barrels. (550 gals + 1 empty). Oh, to conserve space yo can always use your empty to transport gear in. (if it, too, has a removable top)...

BB

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:53 am

willowRage wrote:While all the commentary has been quite apropos and worth consideration there is still no answer for my two questions.

Answer to #1 was the second post. There are also water suppliers all around the Reno/Sparks area - check the following link for details...

http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... water.html

Remember, too - if you get drums that seal tight (this may be difficult, tho) , you can stack them on their sides rather on their bases, saving a little space.

BB

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:04 pm

Hey, willowRage;

It was my camp that y'all shared the water purchase with last year and we'll be bringing lots of water on playa again this year. I wouldn't count on JotS, if I were you. Last year, after the start of the event, JotS was forbidden from providing any water to anyone but BMORG, as I was told both by a JotS driver and by the BMORG folk down at the info tent. The BMORG folk said it was to reduce stress on the JotS folk. The JotS driver said he'd sell us water for an additional $200, a price our neighbors paid.

In any case, drop me a pm if you'd like to make plans on sharing a water purchase again this year. We're planning on needing about 100 gallons a day for our grass and with luck we'll have the water truck on playa again this year. Same goes for anyone else. If you want to share some water deliver give me a shout out we can split the cost...

Ron

czar · Post by **czar** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:47 pm

i think that's a good plan to share water again. bluehouse rocks!

i like the empty canister suggestion to ferry water about too.

Snuggletown! used an RV pumping service, flagged down on the playa to remove the excess water at the end of the week. people in the camp somewhat over calculated our water needs. really, if you follow the bmorg guidelines you have way tooo much water.

with our evap pond saturated, it didn't function properly. the pumping solved the problem at the last minute, with the added expense.

always have a PLAN B.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:02 am

Very cool that you mustered the resources to have your water pumped Czar.

Too many post-event stories to go into but suffice it to say a good number of camps weren't as conscientious as your group when it came to dealing with used water.

willowRage · Post by **willowRage** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:50 am

One of the things I'm not looking forward to is having to play soap nazi at our camp. I'll be supplying zero residue soap for our camp to use and making sure no uses hard soaps for anything that ends up our evap pond. Soap scum will kill the effectiveness of the whole thing.

The whole water process is burdened: acquisition, usage, removal. Wow, what a fun job.

Ron and I have been talking privately and your prays in the matter would be appreciated as this year is looking to be more troublesome than last year. There is time yet for serendipity to do her magic though.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:36 pm

willowRage wrote:....
Ron and I have been talking privately and your prays in the matter would be appreciated as this year is looking to be more troublesome than last year. ....

More trouble just equals more glory when it is overcome! :)

We'll have water on playa again, the only question is if it's easy or not so easy. And if we have water, you'll have an option for some of the same.

Ron

nollij · Post by **nollij** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:30 am

Just curious: what soap leaves no residue? I too am dealing with a large amount of grey water (not as much as you though) and my knowledge of swamp coolers and sump pumps has led me to abandon that route for a simpler method. Do you have any photos or design plans for your swamp cooler system? I'd be curious to check it out..

Aloha,

Sparky (the LIQUIDIAN)
Mon, Aug 1, 2005 12:30:02 AM

willowRage wrote:One of the things I'm not looking forward to is having to play soap nazi at our camp. I'll be supplying zero residue soap for our camp to use and making sure no uses hard soaps for anything that ends up our evap pond. Soap scum will kill the effectiveness of the whole thing.

The whole water process is burdened: acquisition, usage, removal. Wow, what a fun job.

Ron and I have been talking privately and your prays in the matter would be appreciated as this year is looking to be more troublesome than last year. There is time yet for serendipity to do her magic though.

willowRage · Post by **willowRage** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:12 am

You are correct. Anything put into aqueous solution, unless a volatile substance, will leave some kind trace behind. The point at hand is the amount and type of trace it leaves.

A more proper description would be those soaps designed not to form scum layers on the surface of water. For the most part all commercial bath and dish soaps will produce film on the water surface that as the water volume decreases the thickness of the film increases. Products designed to biodegrade and are intended for outdoor use (typically) produce no film layer and are readily broken down. Commercial soaps are resilient and do not quickly degrade.

I don't have pictures of the evap device at the moment when I get some I'll post them.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:01 am

willowRage wrote:Products designed to biodegrade and are intended for outdoor use (typically) produce no film layer and are readily broken down.

So available at backpacking/outdoor stores and you friendly nieghborhood health and hippie food outlet.

Water purchase on the playa?

Water purchase on the playa?

good plan

Zero Residue Soap?