What's the beef with Harvey?

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:01 am

More curiosity than anything. This isn't a loaded question.

How come so many people have a beef with Larry Harvey? Having never met the guy, I don't know of his personality. I've definately heard more trash talk about him than kind things, and I'm wondering how much of it is tongue-in-cheek versus how many people really have it out for him, and why... (Also, if they dislike him so much, how come they continue to Burn?)

-c

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:57 am

My opinion...

When you're on the top of the hill, you're the easiest target.

Also, being on top, with BRC growing exponentially around him, he's had to make some hard management decisions (not to mention becuz of the troubles with land and whatnot) that to some look like he's being heavy handed.

In a way he is. But when you're the target for every TD&H who wants to give BRC a black eye for something, and it's on *your* butt to keep it running, you gotta make choices in favor of the "greater good" (or greater masses) which will invariably step on toes. Being in management and having been on BOD's of various orgs (not this one, tho!!) and working with people of similar rank and stature to LH, I empathize with him, even if I personally don't agree with some of his "choices"... but in the end run, BRC is still flourishing, so for whatever reason, he seems to be making the right choices. Still, anything that far up in any org is gonna guarantee headaches. At least this is a fun event.

Being the CEO for any event - whether it's Burning Man, A Renaissance faire, a multi-stage concert, whatever - is a really tough job, because no matter what, someone's gonna get toes stepped on. Even with a good team under him or her, you're still gonna take flack. Just part of the job. (I was gonna say something about one of the many hats they have to wear, but Larry has one hat for which he's famous >grins<)

My 2 cents.

BBS

Sensei · Post by **Sensei** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:00 pm

Last fall I think it was, I forget exactly when, Larry and the loverly Actiongrl came to Seattle. After his talk at the LL, they both hung around and chatted with the natives. We tried his hat on for size. Literally. Me, Rian Jackson and Lydia Love: we all got to wear his hat.

Just sayin'.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:57 pm

Note to self: 1 Create Sock. 2 Have Sock ask Sensei if any of them got headlice...

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:43 pm

When you're on the top of the hill, you're the easiest target.

Bingo! Sue pounds yet another stake into the heart of the matter.

Peacekeeper · Post by **Peacekeeper** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:11 pm

[quote="Badger"][quote]When you're on the top of the hill, you're the easiest target.[/quote]

Bingo! Sue pounds yet another stake into the heart of the matter.[/quote]

...and of course, why foist all the shite on more than one, slightly unreal figurehead? All the folks at the org, in spite of drawing flak, do good work, so it might be a good thing that they dont suffer all the jive talking that handily lands on one totem, as it were...

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:05 am

would i walk a mile in larry harvey's shoes?

hell no.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:24 am

I've heard all sorts of rumors about him, but then I go out on the playa at night by the man and I look around at BRC stretching out in front of me. And all that petty shit just disappears. Look at the little event that he started...look at what it's become. So with that vision in mind when I read some of the criticism I tune some of it out. When you build an event that's grown this big, that's exceeded any and all expectations ten-fold, you'll pick up some critics and asshats along the way. Some of them get their rocks off by tearing down others...no matter what kind of good things they do. I look at the source, I will read the arguments but a lot of it I tune out after that as petty sniping.

I've never met the man..but I'm damn thankful for the event he created. Flaws or not, it sure changed my life and I will give him credit where it's due and some slack along with it. </soapbox>

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:30 am

What kind of hat is that? Is it a fadora? I could use one like it in my project this year. No hat when he was in Portland last.

EricMagic · Post by **EricMagic** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:16 pm

What is the beef? I have not heard anything said bad about him (Larry). What are the complaints about? Are the negative comments against the BMan even or him personally? What is there to really complain about, since the rules and such about the event are posted well before hand? Just curious.

Last year was pretty good, but there were a few of the organized volunteer helpers who seemed overly bossy at times, or had lack of empathy, but most of them were great. However, no one is directly at fault for those people, except themselves.

I do not wish anything terrible to happen to Burning Man, or anyone in it; and maybe I can help to avoid anything too terrible in happening.

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am

I had the opportunity to meet Larry and Andie and David Best a few months back, when they visited Ann Arbor- They were shopping at a Japanese collectibles shop next to the Michigan Theater, where David and Larry would be lecturing, and when I introduced myself they were polite and almost a little shy- No Rock Star Attitude whatsoever....(okay, Best has a LITTLE BIT of ego, but ALL artists do, especially ones whose work is actually REVERED by thousands of intelligent people.) At the reception Larry asked me if I had been to the playa, and I told him that I had been twice....Something in his face made me wonder if he was going to ask, "Did you like it? Did you think it was COOL?" Very real people. I liked them.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:58 am

unjonharley wrote:What kind of hat is that? Is it a fadora? I could use one like it in my project this year. No hat when he was in Portland last.

Stetson, supposedly.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:04 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
unjonharley wrote:What kind of hat is that? Is it a fadora? I could use one like it in my project this year. No hat when he was in Portland last.
Stetson, supposedly.

~
Thank you, We will be having a bit of fun with that.

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:09 am

http://www.discountsafetygear.com/vucohaha.html

psyntist · Post by **psyntist** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:41 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:but I'm damn thankful for the event he created. Flaws or not, it sure changed my life and I will give him credit where it's due and some slack along with it. </soapbox>

Alright boys and girls, Larry Harvey did not create the event. There are/were a whole shit load of other people that have been a part of the creation of this event.

Now this next part might get this posted erased but from what I understand there was more than one person standing on Baker Beach the first night. And maybe even one or two of them might have had something to do with the first burning.

I will give Larry credit where credit is due. He helped keep the event together through out the years. But the event is not his. He did not create it. (next part is an analogy) He may have been the one that light the fire but he did not stack the wood or tend the fire all alone all these years. Each and every one of us that has gone out to the playa and particpated in any small way are all creators of this event. There are plenty of people that have helped in big and small ways over the years. Some have walked completely away from the event, but we can still see their finger prints in the paint.

So my answer to the original posters question is that Larry gets so much shit because people improperly place him at the head of this beast. People make absurd claims such as Larry created the event.

I created the event. You created the event. Chicken John created the event. John Law created the event. SRL created the event. Madian Mairin created the event. Action Grrl created the event. SEAL from NYC created the event. Frog created the event. The list is long and too numerous to list every single person that has had an effect on the event.

My personal opinion of Larry Harvey is he is a great guy. Loads of fun to talk to. But in the end he is just like the rest of us, working to create a community collectively.

Larry gets shit because one year I asked someone on the playa who let them on the playa and they told me "Larry Harvey let me out here." Bullshit, Larry had next to nothing to do with that guy going to the playa. Larry had as much to do with it as I did.

Larry is a bueracrat. He pushes papers. Talks to other legal entities. Him and the rest of the LLC give the rest of us a canvass to work with. That is all.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:57 pm

[quote="psyntist"]
Larry is a bueracrat. He pushes papers. Talks to other legal entities. Him and the rest of the LLC give the rest of us a canvass to work with. That is all.[/quote]

Oh. So basically they, under his leadership, or paper-pushing or whatever, make Burning Man possible. "That's all."

Thanks for the clarification, I think. So I look at it like this: Burning Man would not exist without us...well...okay it did exist without the vast majority of the tens or hundreds of people who have attended or participated.

Would there have ever been a Burning Man without LH? Has LH ever missed a burn?

-c

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:02 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
psyntist wrote: Larry is a bueracrat. He pushes papers. Talks to other legal entities. Him and the rest of the LLC give the rest of us a canvass to work with. That is all.
Oh. So basically they, under his leadership, or paper-pushing or whatever, make Burning Man possible. "That's all."

Thanks for the clarification, I think. So I look at it like this: Burning Man would not exist without us...well...okay it did exist without the vast majority of the tens or hundreds of people who have attended or participated.

Would there have ever been a Burning Man without LH? Has LH ever missed a burn?

-c

~
Another miss guided one. LH wouldn't be found dead out there. He just sits back and rolls in the dough.

psyntist · Post by **psyntist** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:14 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
psyntist wrote: Larry is a bueracrat. He pushes papers. Talks to other legal entities. Him and the rest of the LLC give the rest of us a canvass to work with. That is all.
Would there have ever been a Burning Man without LH? Has LH ever missed a burn?

-c

Ok, and like I said, would there have ever been a Burning Man without John Law or Chicken John or Maid Marian or Action Grrl or any of the other assorted freaks that have put time, energy and money into the event? What makes Larry more special than anyone else?

And who cares if Larry has never missed a burn or if he has? He is a beurocrat. That is great and good, we need them to file the necessary papers to make the legal entities we have to deal with happy. But he is not the event. He did not create the event. He just happened to have the unique characteristics to ride this particular pony all the way. Others have come and gone. Some come back again. Others laugh at the pompasity that is Burning Man.

So in the end Larry gets shit because he is the one that stands there taking it for all of us. And because people happen to believe that for that lack of him and only him, none of this would have ever happened.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:24 pm

LH has not been seen in years. He has several doubles that travel and speak. Action Girl has at least two doubles. I got close to H's motor home one year. there was a card board cut out of him. It was motorized to make it look like he was moving around.

psyntist · Post by **psyntist** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:28 pm

unjonharley wrote:LH has not been seen in years. there was a card board cut out of him. It was motorized to make it look like he was moving around.

So that was why I got that shock when I pissed on him and all he did was stand there with that same shit eating grin. I gotts to remember to not get so damn drunk next time I try to find him to piss on him.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:33 pm

psyntist wrote: Ok, and like I said, would there have ever been a Burning Man without John Law or Chicken John or Maid Marian or Action Grrl or any of the other assorted freaks that have put time, energy and money into the event? What makes Larry more special than anyone else?

I don't recall anybody saying that he was. The question was simply, what's the beef with Harvey? Was not: Is Larry Harvey more special than Chicken John or Action Grrl...

-c

crazycloud · Post by **crazycloud** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:27 pm

ticket prices!!!
in 98 i paid 80 bones
and now they want a kidney 250 bucks!!!!
they better have free showers there next to the shitters.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:37 pm

crazycloud wrote:ticket prices!!!
in 98 i paid 80 bones
and now they want a kidney 250 bucks!!!!
they better have free showers there next to the shitters.

~
I'm sure some one will give a shower if you hang around the shitters and ask nicely. One golden shower coming up.

psyntist · Post by **psyntist** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:52 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote: I don't recall anybody saying that he was. The question was simply, what's the beef with Harvey? Was not: Is Larry Harvey more special than Chicken John or Action Grrl...

-c

Right and the beef is that some people treat him as more special when he is not.

ThePikey · Post by **ThePikey** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:28 am

unjonharley wrote:
crazycloud wrote:ticket prices!!!
in 98 i paid 80 bones and now they want a kidney 250 bucks!!!! they better have free showers there next to the shitters.

I'm sure some one will give a shower if you hang around the shitters and ask nicely. One golden shower coming up.

I think Golden Shower Camp will be setting up around 3:30 and Dementia...

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:59 am

unjonharley wrote:LH has not been seen in years. .

SURE he has. He's in the smile of a little child....He lingers behind every sunset. Look to the rainbow's end, and there he'll be on his unicorn, puffing on a Pall Mall. Remember to keep a Harvey in your heart, and see the Stetson on the head of all people of all races, creeds and colors around this big, beautiful world.
(*releasing doves*)

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:10 am

(Big Sigh)....You Go Larry !

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:07 am

There's no beef with Harvey because Harvey isn't a cow. He's an invisible 6-foot rabbit.

Kids these days, I swear.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:30 pm

robotland wrote:
unjonharley wrote:LH has not been seen in years. .
SURE he has. He's in the smile of a little child....He lingers behind every sunset. Look to the rainbow's end, and there he'll be on his unicorn, puffing on a Pall Mall. Remember to keep a Harvey in your heart, and see the Stetson on the head of all people of all races, creeds and colors around this big, beautiful world.
(*releasing doves*)

That storey has been going around ever since he went into seclusion. I lost a little faith when he grew that tiny square mustache and combing his hair forward.

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:14 am

At least he made the Mutant Vehicles run on time....And that memoir, "Mein Camp", wasn't bad.

What's the beef with Harvey?

What's the beef with Harvey?

What beef? What are the complaints?

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