What happened to the "Burnin' Bush" festival?

[respecttheplanet]

From the way it sounds, because the BLM lets Burning Man/Black Rock LLC have things a certain way, it put an undue hardship on the Burnin' Bush festival and as a result it was cancelled.

Have any other groups suffered because of the BLM stipulations? They came down hard on the Burnin' Bush folks because they didn't want the Burning Man org to feel like they were being singled out.

Funny how that all works out.

[Kinetic IV]

So, how's www.stopburningman.com going these days?

[EricMagic]

Can you tell us more about the Burning Bush festival? What was it? Who did it? Where was it? When was it done?

[theCryptofishist]

4th of July weekend.

[respecttheplanet]

So, how's www.stopburningman.com going these days?

Dunno. That domain is owned by domain squatters. Regardless, that's irrelevant.

[respecttheplanet]

Can you tell us more about the Burning Bush festival? What was it? Who did it? Where was it? When was it done?

http://burninbush.org/

Take a look at the BLM letters.

[Kinetic IV]

Irrelevant? Look at the top of the current page. Click on "Search". Look at the space where you can search by author. Type in "respecttheplanet". Click search. Read a little ways and my comment certainly becomes relevant. I did the search and made my comment. It should become quite clear at that point.

[Chai Guy]

because the BLM lets Burning Man/Black Rock LLC have things a certain way, it put an undue hardship on the Burnin' Bush festival and as a result it was cancelled.

If by "undue hardship" you mean that the BLM wanted to charge Burning Bush $4.00 per person, per day then uhh.... yeah.

I don't really see how that has anything to do with Burning Man? These are the rules, and they don't seem to be applied to Burning Bush any differently than they are to Burning Man.

Care to explain this in a little more detail? With facts? Cites???

The letters from Burning Bush:
http://www.burninbush.org/burnin_bullshit.html

[theCryptofishist]

Funny thing is I've met Mr Freeze a couple of times and I really can't see him rubbing shoulders w/ Rex E. Newman and his usual gang of idiots.

Psst, Chai--tell him that SF Pride and The CHinese Merchants Association the Green Irish have to pay the city of San Francisco parade privledges. Not to mention all those gatherings at eh Mall in D.C.

[respecttheplanet]

Irrelevant? Look at the top of the current page. Click on "Search". Look at the space where you can search by author. Type in "respecttheplanet". Click search. Read a little ways and my comment certainly becomes relevant. I did the search and made my comment. It should become quite clear at that point.

Right. So, if you want to totally ignore the question and focus on year old posts, I guess that you can do that. I was asking a legitimate question that has absolutely nothing to do with stopburningman.org - there's no need to even bring that up. It's completely irrelevant.
Would you rather I register a completely seperate screenname and come back and ask the same question? It seems that anything that even questions the nature of the event and its effects on $anything that the accusations of "sock puppet" and "troll" start flying. I see no huge issue with asking about other events.

It's a perfectly valid question. Has the presence of Burning Man affected other events in the area? It appears that the answer is "Yes." Burnin' Bush was told that they'd have to pay for an Environmental Assessment report, as well as $4 per person, per day. Before Burning Man & the BLM got all tangled up, this wasn't the case. It certainly seems that the BLM has taken the ruleset they apply to Burning Man and is expecting any other "organized gathering" to meet the same standards. In the case of Burnin' Bush, they were unable to (due to the small size of the event) and as a result, it was cancelled.

I'm not saying "OMG! Oh noes those evil Burningman peeps ruined teh other event!!11!!" or anything like that. Perhaps in this case the BLM is (was) way out of line.

The question remains - have any other 'organized events' in the area (whether or not they took place) been affected by the presence of Burning Man?

Just curious, that's all.

[Kinetic IV]

You asked a good question.

However I'm trying to apply critical thinking skills here and question the sources of what I'm reading. Honestly until you posted again I had forgotten what you had wrote in the past. But...after you posted and I saw a low 30's post count I decided to do some looking and see what I could see. I found posts related to Stop BM under your ID...and so after seeing that and remembering all the havoc that this group has caused on here, I felt it was only fair to sound a note of caution and encourage others to look for themselves. If they saw what I did, perhaps it would give them some perspective about you, your possible intentions, and more.

Now people do change over time...you may not be affilated with them anymore. But until I hear something that tells me otherwise....well your words are all I have to run with. It is what it is. I've seen the Stop people start with an innocent looking question and next thing you know we have an all out holy war. I'm hopeful the board won't have to repeat history again. I'm sorry if this pisses you off but I'm held accountable for stuff I've said in the past. You shouldn't be treated any differently.

[theCryptofishist]

If it's a "legitemate question" what's with all the gratuitious sly innuendo?

Burning Man hasn't been the only change in the Black Rock Desert--it's now a "National Conservation Area" (or something.) And I can say with some assurity that National Environmental Policy Act documents have been getting thicker over the years. More common on the EAs? I'm not sure. Still find a few events on other federal land of roughly comparable size and length and see if they require such permitting. Then start asking questions.

[lurker]

I find it odd that an event that seeks to mimic BM has the audacity to whine when treated like BM.

If you want ....different.... treatment, get an original idea, do something different, in a different way, in a different setting

easy. see?

[Chai Guy]

It's a perfectly valid question. Has the presence of Burning Man affected other events in the area?

Well, any events that want to take place in or around Labor Day Weekend on 5 mile radius that is Burning Man, then yes.

It appears that the answer is "Yes." Burnin' Bush was told that they'd have to pay for an Environmental Assessment report, as well as $4 per person, per day. Before Burning Man & the BLM got all tangled up, this wasn't the case.

Really? Cites?

It certainly seems that the BLM has taken the ruleset they apply to Burning Man and is expecting any other "organized gathering" to meet the same standards.

So here you're saying that Burning Man should have to play by one set of rules and there should be a different set of rules for everyone else? Why? Could it possibly be that BLM has just "ONE" set of rules that they try to apply to EVERYONE, and isn't that they way (ideally) it should be?

[obscurotron]

[quote="Chai Guy"][quote]It's a perfectly valid question. Has the presence of Burning Man affected other events in the area? [/quote]

Well, any events that want to take place in or around Labor Day Weekend on 5 mile radius that is Burning Man, then yes.

I think this question goes beyond the immediate time/space of the Burning Man event. In essence, due to the large scale of the BM event, BLM has altered how it does business. As a result, smaller use events, like Burnin' Bush, are arguably being held to a standard whose spirit was to recover costs for massive events. I don't think it's reasonable to compare a gathering of 300 people on the Bluewing Playa with a gathering of nearly 40,000 people on the Black Rock Playa.



[quote]
It appears that the answer is "Yes." Burnin' Bush was told that they'd have to pay for an Environmental Assessment report, as well as $4 per person, per day. Before Burning Man & the BLM got all tangled up, this wasn't the case.[/quote]

Really? Cites?

http://www.burninbush.org/burnin_bullshit.html

It's all right there at that URL. Actually, BLM eschewed the $4/person/day use, and opted for an "actual cost recovery" fee. The recovery of costs isn't so much the primary issue in my eyes, as perhaps the question of "Why does a small, weekend event like this mandate an EA?" It almost sounds like make-work on the part of BLM.

As for historical use, I can't cite my conversations and interactions with Dave Cooper, Randy Reader, Joe Carmosino or Mike Bilbo. But until BM became an 'issue' with BLM, there was little, if any, red tape. As the event got larger (and by larger, we're talking about the point where it numbered in the low thousands, still larger than Burnin' Bush), BLM's involvement became larger. Cite: BLM Winnemucca Field Office personnel oral histories and information. ;)

[quote]It certainly seems that the BLM has taken the ruleset they apply to Burning Man and is expecting any other "organized gathering" to meet the same standards. [/quote]

So here you're saying that Burning Man should have to play by one set of rules and there should be a different set of rules for everyone else? Why? Could it possibly be that BLM has just "ONE" set of rules that they try to apply to EVERYONE, and isn't that they way (ideally) it should be?[/quote]

Well, for starters, does it make sense to treat a small event of 300 persons the same way one treats an event of 35,000-40,000? In my mind, no. BLM seems to have an arbitrary line of 50 persons, under which no permit is needed, and over which, you need a permit. How is 50 more or less significant than 300, 45, 80 or 600? I don't know. That's a question I have asked, and haven't gotten answered. So I use the word 'arbitrary', because that's what it looks like. If there is insight into this magical number, I'm all ears.

At what point does BLM install a 'fee box' at the 3, 9 or 12 mile entrances where you tell them how many days you'll be out there and you drop in some money, equivalent to $4/person/day? Is this fee only reasonable when BLM has to be involved in some active, personal way? At what point does the notion of "I paid taxes into the system, I get to take something back out of the system" cease to be a valid model, and the need to "recover" costs of the use of "public" lands become the working model?

I really have no stake in either event. My beef is with BLM and their actions. Personally, I'd like to see BLM not taking money from any public user (absent mulcts for vandalism/misuse). You effectively double their potential revenue stream. Too much money in government hands doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

The original question is a good one, though, posed by rtp. How has the change in BLM management, due to their oversight and involvement with BM, affected other users in the area? It seems to have affected Burnin' Bush, in some way. I don't know about the Aeropac folks or anything else like that, though it would be probably good to talk to them and understand how things have changed in say the past 8 or 9 years for them in their usage of the playa area, etc.

-ed

[Stilesfamily]

Burningbush sounds very amazing. However what you are interested in is not where the event has gone but how you can best spread your propaganda. My beef is that there was no question here? You posted questions but already had all the answers, or at least the ones you subscribe to. So I see the thread and innocently think “Oh what is this and where did it go?” thinking that the author had the same question. I go in and immediately realize that the author has very definite ideas of where the event has gone and has manipulated me into her little propaganda factory (regardless of how valid the points may be). A more appropriate title to the thread may have been “How BM screwed it up for BurningBush and everyone else.” At least then we all know what we are getting into.

[obscurotron]

[quote="Stilesfamily"]Burningbush sounds very amazing. However what you are interested in is not where the event has gone but how you can best spread your propaganda. My beef is that there was no question here? You posted questions but already had all the answers, or at least the ones you subscribe to. So I see the thread and innocently think “Oh what is this and where did it go?” thinking that the author had the same question. I go in and immediately realize that the author has very definite ideas of where the event has gone and has manipulated me into her little propaganda factory (regardless of how valid the points may be). A more appropriate title to the thread may have been “How BM screwed it up for BurningBush and everyone else.” At least then we all know what we are getting into.[/quote]

That's your interpretation, but certainly not mine. It seems that it's a question worth asking to get people to think and consider what else is going on around them, no? I certainly don't have all the answers (except that it was killed by bureacratic red tape, the origins of which are valid topics to discuss).

[Observer]

Burningbush sounds very amazing. However what you are interested in is not where the event has gone but how you can best spread your propaganda. My beef is that there was no question here? You posted questions but already had all the answers, or at least the ones you subscribe to. So I see the thread and innocently think “Oh what is this and where did it go?” thinking that the author had the same question. I go in and immediately realize that the author has very definite ideas of where the event has gone and has manipulated me into her little propaganda factory (regardless of how valid the points may be). A more appropriate title to the thread may have been “How BM screwed it up for BurningBush and everyone else.” At least then we all know what we are getting into.

That's your interpretation, but certainly not mine. It seems that it's a question worth asking to get people to think and consider what else is going on around them, no? I certainly don't have all the answers (except that it was killed by bureacratic red tape, the origins of which are valid topics to discuss).

I should point out that "Obscurotron" is one of the head StopBurningMan.org people, and somebody I ran into while over on their list. I have to agree, this is starting to look odd. Hi, Ed, how's Rex doing?

[Chai Guy]

In essence, due to the large scale of the BM event, BLM has altered how it does business.

Again, do you have any cites for this? (sorry personal anecdotes don't hold much weight with me, fees, schedules and rules wrt: the BLM should be a matter of public record and easily cited). I don't know how the BLM handled events before Burning Man. I know that the BLM drastically increased it's user fees for the event after the 1998 event (I think the total went from something like $40,000 to $400,000 - I'll find that info and post it here for you at a later time), still I don't see $4.00 per person per day as being an unreasonable sum. It's also important to remember that Burning Man, while being the largest single event user of BLM land is by no means the only one. The Black Rock Playa is used by a many different large scale groups, from Land speed trials, to landsailing events to rocketry events and it would appear to me that ALL of them are being held to exactly the same standards.

As a result, smaller use events, like Burnin' Bush, are arguably being held to a standard whose spirit was to recover costs for massive events. I don't think it's reasonable to compare a gathering of 300 people on the Bluewing Playa with a gathering of nearly 40,000 people on the Black Rock Playa.

I would argue that they ARE NOT held to the same standards, that Burning Man has to provide a security team (Black Rock Rangers), Fire Supression, Medical support and a whole host of operations that would not be required of Burning Bush or any other 300 person event. (and rightfully so Burning Man should be expected to pay for those services).

Still how is a burn scar differnt if it's created by one person within a group of 30,000 people or if it's created by one person within a group of 300 people?

It's all right there at that URL. Actually, BLM eschewed the $4/person/day use, and opted for an "actual cost recovery" fee.

In this case the estimated "Actual Recovery Cost" was $6,700, the $4.00 per person per day cost would have been $6,800, and the BLM officer concedes that the cost will probably come in at less than that. See below:

From http://www.burninbush.org/burnin_bullshit.html

My preliminary estimate for preparing/reviewing the EA and processing this SRP is $6696.00. Normally, this type of fee schedule is used when there is a significant discrepancy between what the Bureau expects to recover at $4/person/day and what it will actually cost. In this case it's pretty close to the same. I think I figured something like 340 people for 5 days would roughly equal the fee mentioned above. In addition, $6700 is intentionally a high estimate, more than likely it would come in lower. For instance, staff time is charged at $43.00/hour, and I know for sure that my time will cost you less than half that, and I will be putting in the most hours on this project. Two more positives - this whole process needs to be done only once. In addition, this will eliminate any need for doing head counts this year.

On to your next question:

How is 50 more or less significant than 300, 45, 80 or 600? I don't know. That's a question I have asked, and haven't gotten answered. So I use the word 'arbitrary', because that's what it looks like. If there is insight into this magical number, I'm all ears.

Yep, it looks like 50 is a pretty arbitrary number, but as long as they apply that same number across the board, I really don't see what the problem is. 10 fuckwits could probably do more damage in 1 day than 30,000 "aware" people could do in a week. No question.

At what point does BLM install a 'fee box' at the 3, 9 or 12 mile entrances where you tell them how many days you'll be out there and you drop in some money, equivalent to $4/person/day? Is this fee only reasonable when BLM has to be involved in some active, personal way? At what point does the notion of "I paid taxes into the system, I get to take something back out of the system" cease to be a valid model, and the need to "recover" costs of the use of "public" lands become the working model

In many places it already has, in the form of "adventure passes" to national forests and "parking permit fees". I would expect to see such a box or permit system installed at Black Rock within the next 5 years. I don't agree with such things, but that's the way they are.

Seems that it's a question worth asking to get people to think and consider what else is going on around them, no? I certainly don't have all the answers (except that it was killed by bureacratic red tape, the origins of which are valid topics to discuss)

Burning Bush was not killed by bureacratic red tape, the organizers failed or did not wish to raise/pay the $6700 fee to have a legal permitted event. Personally, I would have just said "meet me in the desert!" and called it a day (that's pretty much what the Rainbow Family does). It's your land use it as you see fit.

[theCryptofishist]

[quote="obscurotron]That's your interpretation, but certainly not mine. It seems that it's a question worth asking to get people to think and consider what else is going on around them, no? I certainly don't have all the answers (except that it was killed by bureacratic red tape, the origins of which are valid topics to discuss).[/quote]The "red tape" in question being the National Environmental Policy Act--that same act that gives us a chance against clear cutting on National Lands and drilling ANWAR. And that keeps idiot off-roaders from getting a lung-ful of asbestoes...

Oh well. Is respecttheplanet ready to let Burning Man proceed without a permit/EA? If there had been a Burning Bush EA wouldn't he have proceeded to protest the event's occurence in the Black Rock Desert in order to save the playa. 270 million people have claim to this land. We can't just have a land rush will all of them doing willy-nilly what they want.

[Fat SAM]

I don't know about Burning Man hurting other events, but I can tell you that it certainly helps raves go off in Reno during the week of the event. There are a TON of people who don't get to go out to the playa who want to and I'll tell you what...even burning a little cereal box with a man made of toothpicks on top while some guy plays a few records really makes everybody happy.

[theCryptofishist]

Next year make that man out of bamboo cocktail skewers and in a quarter century you'll have an event to remember.