Fuel storage and portage

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:44 pm

I have figured I could use up to 50 gal of fuel this year. I would rather not buy 10-5gal fuel cans. I did read this today:

A 55-gallon metal drum is the only container approved by the Uniform Fire Code for the storage of more than five gallons of gasoline.

I don't want to carry the weight over the Sierras, I want to fill it in Reno. The problem is that regulations require you to have the container being filled be on the ground so static charge is not built up causing a spark and a potential fire. I worry about getting to Reno and an operator of a fuel station not allowing me to fill the drum while it is in the bed of my truck. I will be travelling alone so I will not have help to get the drum back up once it is full.

Any ideas, experiance to share?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:15 pm

Get out the yellow pages (or web equivelent) and ask a few fuel stops. Or ask at your regular to see what they think. Would the truck stops be more helpful than a regular gas station? Just a thought.

Will you have room to pick up burners in Reno--they could be made to work for their ride. If you're not going to early for them to get in, of course.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:31 pm

I will be arriving Wednesday evening before the event starts to build some kind of stuff or another so unless they already have a reason to be there, yeah, they would just be stranded in Gerlach for a few days until the event opens.

More reading turns up:

Hydrocarbons (gasoline) build up static electricity as they are stirred or agitated,
during refilling.

Always refill gas cans while they are in contact with the ground, and never while in the trunk of a car or in the bed of a truck. Those charged particles are looking for a place to discharge their stored energy and cannot do so safely because the plastic container or a truck bed liner act as an insulator.

phil · Post by **phil** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:49 pm

Any reason why Reno? I have no clue about Bruno's, but I'd call that gas station in Gerlach ((775) 557-2272, if I got the number right), explain what I wanted to do, and ask either how they could help you get a 300lb barrel of gas in the back of the truck or ground it safely while filling it in the back of the truck.

See Planet Wally at
http://gwally.com/directions/000006.php
for other places to call for help getting the barrel back in the truck right there in Gerlach.

falk · Post by **falk** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:53 pm

If you ran a ground wire from the drum to some grounded object in the gas station, it would be safe. The tricky part is convincing the gas station owner of this.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:55 pm

phil wrote:Any reason why Reno?

Well, possibly cheaper gas (although you'd have to haul it so that might cancell it out) probably more help around to get it back in, including helpful truckers (but I could be mistaken) almost certainly less waiting involved. I'm sure geekster knows how to adjust advise to his particulars.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:58 pm

I guess it boils down to A: I don't want to get blown up, B: I don't want to do anything illegal C: I don't want to ask anyone else to do anything illegal.

Turns out that transporting 50 gal of gas in my non-commercial registered vehicle might be against state law anyway. Haven't found Nevada's law on it yet but I have discovered that it is illegal in many states without warning signs, etc.

But yeah, filling it as close to the event as I can is best. The less distance I have to drive with that potential bomb in my truck, the better.

But thanks, Phil, for the info, I will give them a call.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:35 pm

I figured it out, I think. I will take an empty drum out. I will fill my vehicle tank with gas at Gerlach. My vehicle has electronic fuel injection. I will "interrupt" the fuel return line that goes back to the tank and run a hose to the drum and use the fuel pump on the vehicle to transfer the fuel, then make another fuel run to Gerlach, and then make one more to top my vehicle off. So I make 2 runs to Gerlach before the event, and if we run out of fuel, maybe one during.

Should be pretty straightforward and safe, just need some fuel hose (fuel hose is conductive) and a clamp.

phil · Post by **phil** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:57 pm

Hey, geekster,
I apologize if my question was insulting. I didn't mean it to be.
Phil

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:34 pm

You are not going to be able to interupt the fuel flow return line. First, it is not an easy thing to do as most FI systems run close to 120 psi before the pressure regulator. Second, the fuel pump will shut down after 1-3 seconds if the electronic engine control does not see a signal from the distributor. What would happen in a collision if the power was on, engine dies and you are not able to turn of the key? Massive amounts of fuel pouring out a ruptured line.....With all the self serve stations around, who is really going to tell you not to fill a drum? A ground wire is a good idea. It is required when fueling an airplane.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 pm

My old boss has an airplane. He has this neat tank in his pickup with pump. I can ask him what the filling deal is in the morning. OR you might look into this type of tank for your truck. Better get cracking...WE have along ways to and a short time to ge there.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:20 pm

Some friends droped by. So I ask about fuel in 55gal drums. They all seem to think it is the plastic that's the problem. Also plastic truck bed liners. That I have heard storys about. YOu could check farm suplies for pickup truck tanks. All the building contracter have them too.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:10 am

I found a source for good clean steel drums. I checked under the hood and the return line for the fuel system is very easy to get to coming off the fuel pressure regulator (Toyota 22R-E fuel injected engine). Since the return is the low pressure side, the hose is on the regulator with a plain spring clamp. All I need to do is slip the clamp down, remove the hose, slip the clamp on my hose, slip the hose on the regulator outlet, position the clamp and jumper the diagnostic connector so that the fuel pump runs.

I am going to do a hybrid kind of thing. I will take 2-5gal plastic cans and a drum. I will top off in Reno. When I get to Gerlach, I will top off the truck again and fill the cans. That gets me onto the playa with roughly 30 gal of gas. I will then pour the gas from the cans into the drum and pump out 15 gal or so from the truck. Then see of anyone at camp would like to add their gas to the drum and I will take their gas cans back to town and refill the truck, my 2 cans, and their cans. So they get their gas back and I have reduced my trouble to one run to town.

At that point I will have a minimum or 35 gal in the drum (hopefully more) and another 15gal available in the truck if I need it.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:20 am

Geekster,

Dude, you do NOT want to carry 55 gallons of fuel in a drum unless you have ALL of your ducks in a row. You ESPECIALLY do not want to be caught by the CHO or NHP toting such a beast.

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:07 am

Ahhhh....but THAT'S where the "Delicious Tapioca Pudding" stencil comes in!

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:16 am

robotland wrote:Ahhhh....but THAT'S where the "Delicious Tapioca Pudding" stencil comes in!

~
That would be a ill-eagle would'nt it? Damn bird flue.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:43 am

geekster wrote:At that point I will have a minimum or 35 gal in the drum (hopefully more) and another 15gal available in the truck if I need it.

Have you considered just borrowing a bunch of 5-gal drums once you get on the Playa or is the reason you don't want to transport it that way because of space limitations?

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:53 am

This is all very interesting in pointing out the reasons NOT to use a 55 gal. drum to transport gas to the Playa...which begs the question, why not just get 10x 5gal jugs and be done with it? All the trouble and expense (minimum of $20 to leave/re-enter) of what you are proposing would go along way towards buying those 5gal jugs in the 1st place. With 5gal jugs, you can easily share if needed and they are much easier to handle and load (also split up to spread the weight, something a single drum cannot do). So I am curious, just why are you adverse to going with 10x 5gal jugs? Something we should all know, or a personal preference?

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:42 am

There's always the chance that he'll find a blivet at the surplus place in Reno.....Doubles as a gasoline waterbed!

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:24 pm

robotland wrote:There's always the chance that he'll find a blivet at the surplus place in Reno.....Doubles as a gasoline waterbed!

Same static issues apply, I would assume (and you cannot ground an insulator, so unless it is conductive plastic, it would be as bad as filling a plastic barrel). I would also assume the same legal issues apply that Mr. Jellyfish raised (commercial liscence and all)...but, a gasoline waterbed would be pretty cool at burningman...

I wonder if the filling issues would occur if the barrel was first purged with CO2 (or N2)? Of course, it would still be illegal and all...

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:54 am

Geekster--
Have you checked the DOT yet. THey are the ones who do the rulemaking on the warnings of hazardous material. Might be worth perusing the website to get an idea of their rules.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:12 am

Folks .. read what I wrote ... I am going to arrive on the playa with an empty 55gal container and two full 5-gal gas cans. I will make one run to town and end up with 35 gal in the can and a full tank in the truck. Maybe more if I can find others that are willing to dump their fuel into the drum in exchange for me refilling their container for them. It isn't a problem anymore, got it all figured out.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:47 am

A bumper sticker on the back of my car says" It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission". Think about that for a minute in regards to what you want to do here.

Meanwhile I reread the thread and one thing I didn't see was anyone reference the policy of 20 gallons or more of fuel on the playa. For safety reasons...we all know strange stuff happens on the playa, the safety officials want to know of any location where there's more than 20 gal of fuel being stored that's not in a pre-installed fuel tank like on a car or RV:

http://www.burningman.com/installations ... orage.html

Liquid Fuels

Any collection of 20 gallons or more of flammable liquid must be kept within a secondary containment area. The containment method can be as simple as a petroleum resistant tarp rolled up to provide a berm.
A supply of cat litter or fuel absorbent should be kept on hand near any spills basin.
All containers for liquid fuels must be clearly labeled identifying contents and hazards. Original labels are preferred.
A safety perimeter of 30 feet must be maintained between liquid fuel containers and any camping area, and clear access must be provided for the BRCFD in case of fire.
A sufficient amount of dry chemical fire extinguishers must be kept visible and available near the storage location of any liquid fuel.
Note: A petroleum, flammable liquid, fire burns at the surface of the material, as it is vaporized by the fire or ambient heat. Applying water merely spreads the flaming liquid over a wider area, where it vaporizes more rapidly, intensifying the fire. The best way to put out such a fire is to cut off its air supply or interrupts its chemical chain reaction. The smothering agents commonly used for petroleum fires are carbon dioxide (CO2) and dry chemical powder extinguishers. Both are effective for flammable liquids, but dry chemical is better for outdoor use because it’s not subject to wind, has a longer range and can extinguish pressurized leaks of gas and liquid. For good all-around fire protection, use an ABC or all-class fire extinguisher.

Myself I don't care what you do as long as you don't burn my car and tent up. I'm posting this so you don't run afoul of the firefighting folks out there. I worked around this by having 3 - 5 gal cans and 2 - 2 gal cans. and by having two good fire extinguishers which I like having out there anyway. The smaller cans let me disperse them away from each other reducing the chances of a larger fire should something happen.

Martiansky · Post by **Martiansky** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:50 am

Ok, I have aquestion about those small propane tanks for stoves.....Hope you don't mind me asking it here?

Does anyone know if there's a difference in the small stove propane tanks in reference to brand name and quality? I see that Coleman makes them and then my local discount stores have an off brand. Is there really a difference in quality or is it a brand name thing and it'd be ok to go with the cheaper generic tanks?

Thanks!

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:30 am

Propane is propane. There are no additive packages like you have with oil and gasoline so one brand is the same as the other. They only difference in the canisters you refered to is the sticker slapped on the outside of them...that and the price at the scanner.

A little more background info on propane can be found here:
http://www.npga.org/files/public/Facts_ ... ropane.pdf

Martiansky · Post by **Martiansky** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:35 am

You always gotta second guess yourself.....Should I go with the cheaper pay the extra for the name?

I appreciate the info, Kinetic! Thanks.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:07 pm

You are not going to be able to interupt the fuel flow return line. First, it is not an easy thing to do as most FI systems run close to 120 psi before the pressure regulator. Second, the fuel pump will shut down after 1-3 seconds if the electronic engine control does not see a signal from the distributor.

The return line is quite easy to get to and is after the pressure regulator, In other words, the pressure regulator on this vehicle works by effectively restructing the return. For maximum fuel pressure, it would completely restrict the return. In this case, since the vehicle isn't running, the retun will get all the fuel. Also, the fuel pressure at this point isn't going to matter because it is going right into a 55 gal drum.

As for the running the pump thing, in this engine it is an airflow meter that does what you are talking about. If there is no airflow, it shuts the pump off. But there is a diagnostic connector where you can place one jumper ( a paper clip will do) to directly energize the fuel pump relay and run the pump manually.

It is a very simple operation. Remove the return hose from the regulator, put the hose to the drum in its place and jumper the connector. Watch the fuel gauge until it reads about 1/4 tank and then pull the jumper and replace the hose. Takes seconds to set up/tear down.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:12 pm

But as chaos would have it ... it now looks like I won't be needing the 50 gal of fuel anyway. Looks like I will be getting by just fine with 10gal. One destination for the gasoline has switched to bio-diesel and so that leaves only a small amount needed for Project X (whatever the fuck that is) where others will be pitching in too.

So this whole thing turns out to be moot except to make people aware of the dangers of fueling non-grounded containers and regulations concerning fuel storage containers and the transport thereof.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:13 pm

geekster wrote:So this whole thing turns out to be moot except to make people aware of the dangers of fueling non-grounded containers and regulations concerning fuel storage containers and the transport thereof.

If nothing else, you've made some people think harder about how they're going to transport their fuel and store it safely (me, anyway).

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:17 pm

I still might go on a fuel run before the event opens to allow some people to "top off" before the event officially opens. That might avoid some trips during the event and help to keep the traffic down just a little.