Shipping, hauling, water options

[judas]

This year, my 2nd, our themecamp grew to 25. Next year we'll merge with neighbors and likely be >50. My two biggest concerns at this point are interrelated:

#1 What is the best way to get all the crap to the playa?
#2 How does one arrange for potable water delivery on the playa?

Getting water delivery means a smaller truck could be employed as those 2.5g plastic jugs are sub-optimal for shipping. My attempts at going to a distributor were not fruitful as they charged far more per gallon than Safeway.

I know there are several flatbeds dropped & picked up on the playa. How does one arrange this? My camp is not large enough for a 53' trailer. Certainly there's a cluster of Bay Area based camps that would love to avoid the rental & driving of a truck. This was only my 2nd year and I only recently started following this forum. So, I welcome any seasoned advice on these topics.

-Judas

[Borris]

#1 What is the best way to get all the crap to the playa?

renting a truck. this will probably be the cheapest option. the truck rental companies offer various size trucks, I know that guys in NYC pool several camps together to rent a bigger truck and send it out a wekk in advance. Try your regional list/contact to check about either someone who would be interested in pooling with you or someone who is allready running a truck and will be willing to share space with you. The share agreements might be different monetary, labor, driving [in case someone from your camp has a comercial liscence for an extra long ass truck] tickets (it's money essentialy) or any other deal.
a correctly packed truck can actually contain ALOT of crap.

#2 How does one arrange for potable water delivery on the playa?

One doesn't.
http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... water.html
this is the best explanatory page about buying water in Reno-Sparks.
there are alternatives to the 2.5 gal. bottles. like geting a 55 gal barrel with an elecric pump that works off 12v car batteries or with a spigot at the bottom (just remember that a full 55 barrel will weigh more then 400 lbs) but you can probably keep it on the truck all the time (even when filling) and just dispence it into personal containers.

I remember someone on the old Eplaya who wanted to get 500 gallons for a pool but found out that unless you need 2000-3000 gallons the price of a water truck that will deliver the water to you on the playa becomes Extremly high.
Also i don't think that even as an organised centralized camp you need to provide water to all of your people, the biggest problem with big ammounts of water is that even if it's cheaper to buy in bulk it's extremly heavy and the big containers aren't easy to lift/move.

I do remember seeing a 500 gallon water tank-trailer (with wheels) for sale on the web (at one of the surplus stores) the price was somewhere round the 500$.It could provide water to about 30+ people (including showers and dishes) and filling it up would be ~175$ so at 1.35$ per gallon this isn't such a bad deal. especialy for a largeish camp.

[III]

> #1 What is the best way to get all the crap to the playa?
> #2 How does one arrange for potable water delivery on the playa?

if you check the "fucking insane" thread, you'll find that i (and a coupleof other people) go with the "make people bring it themselves" option.

just because you're with a theme camp doesn't mean you all of a sudden get to be completely clueless and helpless.

it is possible that i am misinterpreting your question, and that we are operating under different sets of assumptions. if you wanna specify what "all the crap" consists of, and what you need the water for, i may have a better answer.

[Guest]

if you check the "fucking insane" thread, you'll find that i (and a coupleof other people) go with the "make people bring it themselves" option.

III...i think judas was more referring to an increasing number large art/infrastructure items, rather than personal items.

[judas]

Sorry, I'll be more specific.

The assumptions are:
- Our camp will be >50
- Many (most?) are flying to Reno or driving cross-country without a truck.
- we will have several (4-6) large structures and canopies. Two domes, some couches, furniture, etc...
- we'll have a fairly large bar and we make it fun for passers-by. we'll be open every night Sun-Sun. In other words, we participate.
- other "crap" that needs shipping is the usual playa stuff: food, bikes, costumes, kitchen, ....


I've read the "insane" topic. Of course, if I wanted to be a spectator who has a good time I wouldn't bother with a themecamp, I wouldn't be organizing, I wouldn't be worrying about this 11 months in advance. I want to put something *on* for both my campmates, my neighborhood, and the burners that happen to walk by, need a drink, and have someone to be smited.

So, I see that RV's can have potable water tanks "re-charged" for a fee. Does this mean that others can purchase potable water on-playa? How?

I see flatbed trailers all over. How did those get arranged? Who could I talk to? What shipping companies have dropped/picked up flatbeds on the playa?

I'm not helpless. Far from it. Ask any of my campmates.

So, I don't need to hear "read the BM website". But, hey, thanks for that.

If you've tried arranging shipping or water delivery before I'd love to hear about it.

[Borris]

Sorry, I'll be more specific.

So, I see that RV's can have potable water tanks "re-charged" for a fee. Does this mean that others can purchase potable water on-playa? How?

Wrong. RV's can get grey water tanks serviced, not potable water tanks.
again, you cannot buy potable water on the playa (unless you buy alot of ice and melt it)

I see flatbed trailers all over. How did those get arranged? Who could I talk to? What shipping companies have dropped/picked up flatbeds on the playa?

where do you live? where does the majority of your camp memebers live?
Open the yellow pages and look for a comercial trucking company in your vicinity. if someone you know has a comercial licsence see if he will be willing to drive a rented truck for you (this will be cheaper, and yes you can rent flatbed trailers+tracktors, allthough i don't think you'll need a 48', it's way too much space even for a 50 people camp) several companies rent out 24' box trucks one of those should be way more the enough for the list of equipment you gave out.

I'm not helpless. Far from it. Ask any of my campmates.

I did and behind your back they said otherwise.

Just kidding.

So, I don't need to hear "read the BM website". But, hey, thanks for that.

Reading te site again and being "helpless" has nothing to do. I'm far form helpless. I've served in the Israeli military, climbed some fucking high mountains in India and Nepal (5000-6000 meters), produced week long raves planed for 5000 people, treked deserts for longer then a week without a car to carry any of my stuff and I still read every word they had on the BM site (and on several other sites), you see I don't know what can i rent or buy round reno, what i have to bring from farther. I do know what i need in the desert, but i assume that unless i cater for it myself no one will cater for me (you imply water delivery means tat someone is catering water to the desert for you, even if you pay for it).


Trey: while i fully support the BYO thing, te guy has a good idea with having alot of people form his camp fly in and organising a centralized transport for them. I know Reorient did something like that for their NY contingent this year (don't know how well it worked out, but seeing their camp I'm quite sure they were OK)

[Guest]

>several companies rent out 24' box trucks one of those should be way more the enough for the list of equipment you gave out

Yeah. We had one-a-those. And a sixteen-footer, too.

Maybe we do "Walden Camp" next year, instead.

[III]

>te guy has a good idea

which is why i asked for more info.

there is no potable water delivery on the playa. there is non-potable water (drawn from a local uncertified well), and there is grey water service. both are somewhat unreliable, and involve handshake deals and usually a couple bottles of decent booze.

you're better off getting a couple of 55 gallon food grade drums, and filling them in reno. or 5 gallon containers, and filling those in reno. or having the people flying in buy a box of 2.5 gallon suitcases on their way out to the playa. there is a potable water place that caters to burners that both sells the containers, and fills them. i can't remember the name off hand. it should be in the jack rabbit speaks archives somewhere, though.

the make everyone haul their own shit method certainly doesn't preclude being interactive, or having domes. my camp this year had 3ish big shade structures, and a well stocked bar, and brought everything by personal vehicle (aside from a couple of art car things that were tailered in).

flatbed trailers are available through united rents. the big (14 ft?) ones go for something like $60 a day. there are a number of places that sell moving vans. avoid u-haul, for a number of reasons. i think it's more economical to get a moving van with a lift gate - the people doing our village managed to get one for a little over a grand for the week. there are places that specialize in movie rentals, those tend to be a little easier to deal with. be prepared to do a lot of cleaning up before returning it.

the biggest problem with trucks and trailers is not so much the cost as getting them loaded and unloaded. you seem to want to do most of the work yourself, as a gift to your campmates. i'd suggest that that's a good way to burn out, and that you should find a way for them to carry a fair amount of the load if you don't want to end up frustrated and whiney and grumpy and sad.

[III]

oh, and if you mean semi sized trailers, um, well, it helps to have friends in the trucking bizness. or just to have a lot of money. you'll find other people spend stupid amounts of money to get things done out there, and there are precious few secrets for doing something neat affordably.

[judas]

[Begin Fantasy]

Next year we will have a shipping container delivered to the playa from the Bay Area. Five large theme camps will split the cost. It will be dropped off by Saturday afternoon and picked up Tuesday. It will have to be completely loaded by the Thursday before the event. Unloading will occur the Saturday following the event. There will be a "truck boss" who will make sure the loading and unloading are coordinated by the various camps.

It will also be the first year that potable water is available for sale to those with 55g or larger water tanks. The ORG will spearhead the negotiations as a water trucking company will need a guarantee that they will make a profit. Themecamps will commit to buying water in advance in order to assure the ORG does not take a loss.

Because there will be pooled resources, everyone will have more money to spend on artistic endeavors. The Earth Guardians will be tickled that there will be 500 fewer empty plastic jugs filling dumps. The view from the playa will be greatly enhanced because of the reduction in undecorated 24' trucks. Participating themecamps will be much more organized because all their materiel has to be boxed & labeled prior to going in the container.

And it shall be a good burn.

[End Fantasy]

[Guest]

(scrambling into my kevlar, hoping to get it on prior to trey's response)

[precipitate]

None of that is impossible, or even particularly difficult. Just expensive.
And not worth the effort, IMO.

Judas, what are you looking for? Easy answers? Cheap answers? The
Complete Guide to Remote Theme Camp Maintenance?

[III]

>prior to trey's response

heh.

you want to pay someone to deliver water to you on the playa, but you want it to be cheaper than what you pay (on a per gallon basis) at your local supermarket.

here's a little thought experiment that i try to get people to engage in when they just want to pay someone, but not a lot, to do something they'd rather not do themselves:

how much would you have to charge if you wanted to provide that service?
cause you could, you know: arrange ahead of time to trade water on the playa. sell "water barter chips" ahead of time. then go rent a water truck, find a potable water source, and secure rights to enough water, and then hire someone to drive it around, back and forth. people can come by your camp to place the water order, and in exchange for a "water barter chip" you'll deliver them 55 gallons.

it's rather doable, at some price. i just suspect that price isn't nearly as low as you want it to be.

i'm also sure you'd never want to do it again if you actually decided to do it, because the logistics of trying to provide that service in as prompt a fashion as you'd like are nearly impossible.

which is why we recommend that you try to take care of your own stuff. wanting someone else to do it for you for less than it would take you to do it is generally not possible at burning man.

as far as the containers go, a reasonable guess at renting a 20 ft container for a month and having it delivered out there would be maybe $5000, or so (but also maybe 3 times that). not impossible, but as p pointed out, renting a cargo van and driving it yourself would be cheaper.

[Guest]

you want to pay someone to deliver water to you on the playa, but you want it to be cheaper than what you pay (on a per gallon basis) at your local supermarket.

here's a little thought experiment that i try to get people to engage in when they just want to pay someone, but not a lot, to do something they'd rather not do themselves:

Yeah, the cheaper=better thing is good (duh), but for me at least, it was less cost-motivated and more of a "how can we reduce the hassle?" factor. Tripping over the rope stringer full o' (let's see...25ppl x 8 days = ) an imperial fuckload of crushed h2o suitcases was a bit of a pain in the ass. On the water front, guess the theory is/was "fewer bigger containers is better than many little ones" in camp, purely from a pain in the ass factor for all involved. Taking that to the extreme, and having "1" container that was big and could be reasonably, rationally replenished is the nirvana. We'll figger out some pragmatic reality that's in between...

[Guest]

I know Reorient did something like that for their NY contingent this year (don't know how well it worked out, but seeing their camp I'm quite sure they were OK)

Here's how the Asylum folks did it.

[judas]

Two thoughts:

- I would certainly pay more than $1/gallon for water on the playa. If I owned a water truck I would certainly charge whatever I could get away with ($2? $3?). If I worked for BRC I would search for companies that can do potable water delivery and if they exist I would send them an RFP. The service would obviously have huge demand. Have they already tried this? (If we can get *ice* in the desert, why not water?)

- Perhaps SF needs an art ark. Even though SF is easy driving distance I'm sure there would be enough people willing to pay to have stuff delivered. Those cute Acura Integras that half of SF drives don't carry much gear.

Hmmm, would I be willing to organize an art ark? Not sure. Genghis, it should be easy to calculate the cubic footage of the storage container. What does that come out to be? There are lots of advantages and disadvantages to be weighed. It's an intriguing problem.

[III]

>pain in the ass

having a large group of people share water out of large containers has it's own share of pain in the ass.

we ran a shower many years ago. figgured that people could bring water to fill up what they took out of the 3 55 gallon drums we brought. we started them full, so that you'd be able to have a bit of reserve. they were dry after two days.

when people see a large resource, they have trouble realizing what their fair share is, and (some, certainly not all, but enough) use it wastefully enough to completely negate whatever bulk benifit you might get.

and, actually moving that much water is a pain, as well. a 55 gallon drum weighs about a quarter ton.

if i were to try setting up potable water delivery on the playa, my guess is that i'd have to charge around $8/gallon just to break even...

[Tiara]

The best solution I've found for drinking water is 5 gallon bottles (like the ones commonly used on water coolers at offices and homes). It's economical, creates no waste to dispose of (other than the plastic bottle caps), and relatively easy to dispense and transport.

I was able to get filled 5 gallon jugs for $6 each, with no charge for the bottles if they were returned in re-usable condition.

I did find that none of the major companies would help me out with a one-time order like that. But a local independent company did--they happily delivered 24 x 5 gallon bottles right to my driveway on the appointed day.

I found a $15 water stand using local classified ads. And that made it easy to re-fill water bottles and camelback type packs.

After the event, we hosed off the bottles and returned them for re-use, and stuck the water stand in the garage until next year.

[Borris]

Two thoughts:

- I would certainly pay more than $1/gallon for water on the playa. If I owned a water truck I would certainly charge whatever I could get away with ($2? $3?). If I worked for BRC I would search for companies that can do potable water delivery and if they exist I would send them an RFP. The service would obviously have huge demand. Have they already tried this? (If we can get *ice* in the desert, why not water?)

well, I'm sorry to say it but Judas i don't think you got the BM self reliance idea. we are very happy that you aren't working for BRC. and alot of people at BRC arent't happy with the fact that you can get ice.

[Chai Guy]

when people see a large resource, they have trouble realizing what their fair share is, and (some, certainly not all, but enough) use it wastefully enough to completely negate whatever bulk benifit you might get.

This is very true, I had a campmate use 5 gallons of water for 1 shower because they thought "We had plenty" ... Well, we didn't , and ended up having to ask others for more water later in the week.

I think water should be a very personal thing, exceptions exist of course (for people who are flying in or for theme camps that require a large amount of water for their specific project).

On the other side of this coin however is Power and I've always wondered why there is so much power wasted on the playa. It seems that everyone is running a 10,000 watt generator to supply a 500 watt blender.

I was part of a large camp once running a large 10,000 watt diesel generator for sound mostly at night, next door was another camp running a seperate 10,000 watt generator mostly during the day. We finally wised up and shared power off one generator. Was there a way to have organized ourselves to share one generator before the event started there by saving ourselves approximately $600 in rental costs and fuel? Our placement was not completed until a few weeks before the event. I would like to see placement done sooner, and with contact info provided on the camps placed next to each other so that resources like this could be shared more efficently.

[III]

>10,000 watt generator to supply a 500 watt blender.

it should be pointed out that 10,000 watt generators only put out that much when the load is that high. for lower loads, they consume less fuel to compensate. i'm not sure where the tradeoff becomes undesireable, but generally running a larger genny than you need is a good thing.

then again, i had chance to hang with some of the aez folks a couple of weeks ago, and they've got all sorts of different ideas on that, and the skill and know how to pull it off.

[precipitate]

> i'm not sure where the tradeoff becomes undesireable, but generally
> running a larger genny than you need is a good thing.

I beg to differ. We had a 5KW generator running a sound system and some
lights in '99. Probably needed about 1.5KW. The voltage kept dropping
and the circuit breaker would trip and we'd have to go reset everything
pretty often. Also fried one of the sound components (tape deck, I think
- it was just a home stereo), and since the rest of the system went
another three years I don't think it was simple playa exposure.

Running a genny that's maybe 20% [making this number up] bigger than
you need might be good. Running one that's more than 100% of what you
need is wasteful and potentially damaging to the generator and to what
you're powering.

[Borris]

on the other hand, the smaller gennies (up to 5KW) usually don't have a current stabilizer, this is probably what fried your tape. the larger gennies (the big boxed things) usually have a stabilizer, they are also usually muffled.
on a festival i was involved with last year we ran a 30KW sound system and 40KW of lights from a 100KW thingey, worked smoth. of course i don't think anyone at BM (xcept for the org) needs such quantities of power, but knowing who are your neigbours and working out a unified grid with them is an excelent thing. would sureley cut costs and pollution as well. (the bigger the gennie the cheaper they are per KW, less fuel per KW and less air and noise pollution per KW)

[PinkSlip]

I know a burner who flies into Reno with a collapsible 5 gallon water jug from a camping store in his luggage and fills it at a Reno motel for a week's worth of drinking water.
He also buys one of those cheap plastic storage containers (about 30x16 inches and 14-18 inches tall -- Wal-Mart, etc.) with a tight lid ... they're made for storing clothes & such. Fill it 3/4 full with water from the motel ... which quickly becomes very heavy and tough to move around, so it's a good idea to put the container in the car when you reach 5 gallons and then fill it the rest of the way with several pourings from a plastic jug.
Leakage becomes a problem while driving unless you stop and start very smoothly. Even if you seal the edges of the lid with tape, it's a good idea to put something with a broad, flat surface in the middle the container to act as a baffle to dampen the mini "waves" that slosh back & forth inside. My buddy uses a plastic milk crate.

[actiongrl]

> alot of people at BRC arent't happy with the fact that you can get ice.
_________________

Hmm. I don't get that at all (being that I'm behind the jackrabbit alias to whom a great many such complaints are addressed.) And the amount of ice sold seems to represent that it's a pretty necessary commodity. Do we really want to eat jerky all week?

I was going to post the document relating how the NY group did their container but I see someone already did, so...I'll just hush up now! :

[trancer]

Some great folks in Chicago organized a Chicago/Playa transport this year; they wanted to get their theme camp out to the playa and set up a website to enlist cooperative shippers to keep the cost of trunk rental down. I sent my playa bike (boxed), camping gear, a large drum, & some other stuff for about $125. Everything went smoothly--the organizers did a great job of keeping on top of it! Very similar to the Asylum transport from NYC. Seems to me that "cooperation" really goes hand in hand with "radical self-reliance." We can be self-reliant together.
One of the best things about Burning Man, to me, is the problem solving aspect--its such a great experiment, repeated year after year. And I think it generates solutions to a lot of global problems. But I digress. I flew to Reno with the biggest duffle I could find for extra stuff, paid an extra $25 for the extra weight. Not too bad. Rented a Sunfire, the smallest rental car, and crammed it full. Three cases of K-mart water was more than enough for this little black duck! (Preferred mode of showering was running behind the water trucks! Man, you really get wet!) Flying to Reno should present no great obstacle, from point of view of my experience, to self-reliance. I'd like to do a small scale art installation in '04, and am hoping that we can get a shipping cooperative together again. Finally, a reality check: participating in Burning Man costs money and raises awareness. We all need to become more conscious of economy, of not being wasteful, of the waste stream we generate, the scarcity of resources, the need for cooperation as well as self-reliance and traveling light. If Henry David Thoreau were alive, he would be a burner. MA OM from Trancer! PS does Reno recycle? I dropped all my trash (which wasn't much) and a bag of playa moop at the Reno transfer station, but they didn't seem to have seperate facilities for recylables.

[Ladymerv]

Hi There BRC Folk!
Glad that people are talking about shippin' here on the 'ol Eplaya! I've been running containers to the playa from NYC and back for 3 years.
Last year we had so many people we had to run two containers.
The containers go by truck and rail out to CA, and then are driven out to the playa from there.
The cost is amazingly cheap considering that you just put your well boxed stuff on a truck in NYC, and it gets to the playa and sits on the container for you to pick up...then the container is there for you to put your well packed box back on when you are ready to leave the playa and it meets you back in NYC.

I decided to do the container this way as a gift in 2001 after watching numerous people try and drive trucks that they had rented- and coordinate people and their stuff...and arrive at the playa late, with damages to the rented truck, and the drivers were sick and tired. This didn't look like fun for those that made it possible, nor did they usually do it again...I felt that transferance service was very important for artists on the East Coast so that they could plan bigger and bigger stuff for Burning Man from NYC and for theme camps and villages.

Reorient, The Mechanical Horses, Rev. Billy and his choir, Slow Dance Camp, Costume Cult, Jonney on The Spot, Asylum Village, And Image Node were some of the many participants in the NYC container this past year...hundreds of people were able to bring their art projects to the playa.
If you want more info just visit www.sealspace.org

Its a great way to give back to your community!

Transferance Coordinatrix
Lady Merv
NYC

[Ladymerv]

Just to clearify:
Art Ark from NYC- BRC- NYC does not charge people by weight, it goes by size...

we ask participants not to ship water or food on the container since it cooks in there and having a water jug open up on someone's art might not be what the artist wanted...and stinky cheese has a way of making everything in the container smell bad.(dried foods are welcome). We also ask participants in the container not to ship anything that is hazardus( a few years ago someone shipped a car battery that exploded all over their stuff and a few others...nothing like finding your sleeping bag has battery acid all over it)...the containers cook in the sun.

We ask everyone to pay before hand, since its the combined payments that make the container possible. Last year it was $3.50 a cubic foot round trip, this made it possible to rent two 48 foot containers for the trip out- a week or so on the playa and the trip back...by truck and rail.
TIP: Do NOT send your container to RENO train yard- if you are using the rail method send it to CA- and have it trucked from there...the reno guys seem to like to take it easy- and that could mean that your container arrives on friday in RENO and sits in the yard till monday or tuesday.. believe me, it happend to us the first year and we learned our lesson.

The container is run by an outside company which ships huge amounts of containers around the USA daily, we are one( or two) of thousands of containers they are moving- and orgainzing the rail part of the trip is impossible for a layman. (believe me, I tried).

If you are going to do a container from your neck of the woods, I would reccomend getting started immediatly( right after New Years). It takes A LOT of behind the sceens work to make this possible...

much love,
Transferance Coordinatrix
Lady Merv

[BURNING GIRL]

I highly agree with the truck rental theory as fas as the "stuff" is concerned. United rentals, U-Haul, ect. My suggestion would be to price the cost of the rental, gas, mileage and split it with your camp members.
As far as water is concerned, you can buy water on the playa(I did). The johny on the spot guys as well as another local company from Gerlach do offer drinking water for purchase. The price is roughly $1 per gallon. You can arrange water through center camp's info booth or just flag one of them down. They of course only accept cash. If you were trying to save on weight till you get to Reno, try Twin City Surplus http://twincitysurplus.com/index.fx?car ... 02480.1409. They offer a wide arrangement of sizes of water containers. You can pre-purchase them and they will hold them for pickup as you drive through Reno. You can also fill them there.
I hope that helps. Planning ahead is by far your best option. If you need any help let me know, I live in Reno.

[MrChevere]

Burning Girl,

Where is good place to pick up about 50 gallons of tap water around Reno or en route from there to Gerlach?

I had a 55 gallon drum that I hauled all the way from SF for bathing and whatever. I figure it weighed over 400#. It would probably save me some fuel if I could haul it up empty and fill it up there.