WAR! What is it good for?

Patience · Post by **Patience** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 9:49 am

Big march and rally today in downtown SF. Come down to Dolores Park (19th and Dolores St., 16th and Bart) at noon to join in International Days of Protest Against War, Occupation and Empire. We'll be marching to Civic Center at 1 p.m., and the Rally is at 2. Sorry for the late notice--I've been flyering for days, and forgot to post something here. I know it's Sunday, and you're all hung over. Come on down anyway! Make your voice heard--the more people show up, the greater message we send. Help us convince the American public that there is a better way.

And now back to your regularly scheduled bickering.

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 10:43 am

Dude - I think it is fair to say that I am not bickering - As to all this 'trouble at home stuff' my only problem is moderate drug and alchohol abuse which really doesn't worry me that much, surely any self respecting journo feels the same way -

The 'we did it it in so much style thing was a quip' (obviously worked) - testes and PJ just get wound up because of their allegiance to apple pie, fair enough I say. Still think neither of you guys want to do anything more than gripe and PJ - try not to confuse the muslim faith with 'fundamentalist' muslim ideologies - surely you can see the difference between a christian who likes working in soup kitchens and one who likes shooting guns and spouting weird right wing rhetoric (I believe these types are indigineous to your nation) same deal, no? The way you make sweeping generalisations about cultures, well, wow.

Anyway as I have said over and over, please try to realistically engage with the issues at hand

hey thanks for fighting my corner Empress but these cats don't even phase me really - I'm still waitng to hear something even vaguely intelligent from 'em

he he he

Seriously, an old maxim 'if you don't have anything constructive to say keep it fucking zipped'

Look this empire crap is a mute point, no one I know is proud of the worst excesses of the British empire and no one I know would like to see another one, be it US based or not. However it's not only tea you have to thank us for but electricity, telephones, cricket, the national health service (oh sorry you make poor people pay for healthcare still doncha), the theory of evolution, the discovery of gravity, the first successfully cloned animal - I think the list goes on hey? And also as no name pointed out more than a few fantastic women have come from this sceptred isle (Women have led our country many times over the centuries)

Also we actually gladly gave up our empire, which was as much built upon the ideals of good healthcare, electricity and education etc for the whole world as it was upon a show of military might (which is all your fucking empire would be) - I think an American one built upon mickey mouse cartoons and capitalism might be rather different and even more hated

Can't imagine you lot ever being beaten by Iraq at baseball the way we are by India at cricket. Mutual appreciation of culture ya see?
Over here the favourite dish is curry not McDonalds and we have thousands of Hindu temples and places for people of all religions to pratice their faith. Also our leader doesn't constantly bang on about god to defend his nasty little gang of thieves and their agenda.

Oh and finally, get a grip PJ, you have far far more gun crime than us, what a very silly thing for you to say.

Lets pull that Robin Williams quote out again here because I think it fits the likes of you two

"America was founded by a bunch of people so uptight even the fucking English kicked them out."

Ouch.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:21 am

The Brits are ok, but it's looking more and more likely that my job will be going to India by the end of October barring a miracle. So I'll keep my mouth shut about that place as I have NOTHING positive to say about it.

I can see the comments on the Muslim fundamentalist movement...I rarely see anything positive associated with Muslims anymore. If I think about Muslims I think of Osama, the Saudis wanting to buy nukes, the Iranians trying to build nukes, and here at home, well: http://www.eastbayexpress.com/special_r ... index.html

I don't believe everything in the press but sheesh, this group can't seem to get any good press.

As for the rest of it, I'm just too shellshocked right now to comment or to carry on a heated discussion with anyone. But I had to at least throw the above stuff out and see what people had to say.

PJ · Post by PJ » Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:53 pm

Kinetic wrote:...I rarely see anything positive associated with Muslims anymore...

They're not all bad: they invented the concept of "zero." Nothing else springs to mind though surely somebody else can recall details of which I'm unaware.

Me, I never met a religion I didn't dislike, but I'll acknowledge that some are outwardly-harmless wastes of time, at least if they're not overly expensive for the participants.

On another subject: generalizations regarding groups can indeed be valid; generalizations regarding individuals are dangerous. Many people that have travelled extensively have met and gotten to know and like, for example, one or more individual Germans and maybe a Korean or two. But if they're paying attention at all and they're objective they could never honestly say "The 'Japanese' and the 'French' are exactly alike." This is not a bad thing! It's OK to think whole facets of a culture are rubbish, just as it's fine to find many of their traits admirable and worth emulation. It's two-sided though: presently K's job might be on-track to be given to people who can be admired for their willingness to do his job for one-twentieth the pay. A popular trend, world-wide. Globally I suspect more people feel good for the upward-mobility of the hard-working third-worlders benefiting from this as opposed to feeling sorry for the Americans that'll be looking for work because of this trend. Not that this trend is anything new--markets seeking cheaper labour is a several-hundred-year-old tradition. The only way out is to innovate your way out of the loop. And invention is the US's greatest skill; it could be anywhere else but more of it occurs in the US because here people are allowed to get rich doing it. It's a team, not individual, activity--so others benefit too.

And speaking of inventions, no, Alexander Graham Bell wasn't English, nor was his invention conceived or developed in England. Ditto practical electrical transmission and appliances, including light bulbs. Soviet-era grammar school textbooks taught otherwise but I doubt British schools did. The Industrial Revolution on the other hand was all Britian's.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:37 pm

Me, I never met a religion I didn't dislike, but I'll acknowledge that some are outwardly-harmless wastes of time, at least if they're not overly expensive for the participants.

Unless you're a Scientologist....

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:00 am

Arnold Layne wrote:Le singe a raison!

Suivez-l'en bas du trou de lapin pour chercher la vérité!!

How did a little blond haired girl in a robins egg blue dress become so iconic?

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:32 am

blyslv wrote:
Arnold Layne wrote:Le singe a raison!

Suivez-l'en bas du trou de lapin pour chercher la vérité!!
How did a little blond haired girl in a robins egg blue dress become so iconic?

blues clues, motherfucker!

chickenfish · Post by **chickenfish** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:23 am

For those interested in other views of the world and the non-fundamentalist/dogmatist side of ISLAM I would suggest reading into Sufism, the mystical side of Islam (Sufism is to Islam as Kaballah is to Judaism or Gnosticism is to Christianity). ISLAM is not some horrible devil religion as our nations papers would have us believe. There is much to be learned about the world of philosophical and religous thought from it.

On the subject of Nazis...In my research it is becoming increasingly evident that Their ideas and technologies did not end with WWII, but merely migrated to the states...Project Paperclip saw hundreds of ex-Nazi scientist employed by the U.S. in weapons and space programs, thats how we got to the moon. Ever hear of Dr. Werner Von Braun? We in America are experiencing something none to disimilar from what was going on in Germany in the early 40's. Bush and his hooligans are poised to do it all again. The prison/induatrial complex in our country works much the way the concentration camps did, though we may not be killing our prisoners at the same rate, we are creating a class of slave workers...McDonalds, United Airlines and many other large corporations use slave labor right here in the states...it's EVEN CHEAPER than sending the work overseas to thirdworld nations... I for one don't buy the argument that anywhere in the states, event he worst ghetto, is a better place to live than the middle east. I've been there, and met people who were quite happy and comfortable with there lifestyle. And In all my travels I have met more open minded peoplpe oversees than here in the states. I am constantly amazed at the amount of seemingly intelligent people I meet here who have no grasp at all on our foreign policy, or even our domestic policy. PATRIOT act anyone? Iran/Contra? CIA?

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:43 am

Those who forget the past are DOOMED to repeat it.....

Sufism. Wow, I almost forgot about the one part of ISLAM that is worth learning more about. It's been a very long time since I even heard the name mentioned...thanks for rekindling that spark of interest as now I've got another project on my list....

Chickenfish does have some interesting thoughts as Amerika!! does have some striking parallels to the early 1940's. I also agree that with all the jobs moving overseas like the one I have (I learn my job's fate by the end of Oct), that a new class of slave labor is being created. Right now if the job I have comes to an end, the best job I can find ranging from e-gov to what I can find out there will top out at $30K per year. Granted that's not slave pay, but it's not $40 or $45K either. And it would take years to get back to that level without a serious reinvestment, and to be honest with the way technology is accelerating in telecom I'm not sure I want to make that investment, at least in the way it would need to be done for telecom.

So I am going to be forced like PJ suggested to innovate and be creative. I am going to have to take the plunge and reinvest in myself and see where I can take it. You literally make your own opportunities and I am tired of having corporate Amerika do it for me. So right now I am looking at possibilities.

One thought that comes up as I look at Chickenfish's post is kind of a dangerous one. There were a lot of Nazis who came over and because of their knowledge were accepted into America without any effort to "deprogram" them of the Nazi mindsets and beliefs. There are a lot of consipiracy theories out there that much of America's problems are due to this and the so called Jewish conspiracy to amass power that means America's problems are like a Cold War version of the battle between the US / USSR. Change the players to the Nazi's vs. Jews although it's being done in stealth mode behind the scenes and you have the current state of affairs. The battle is still on, and this war is one incident away from going hot and becomeing spectacularly public.

That last paragraph was far out there but I know someone who is deep into the theories and I hear this stuff quite often. I think much of it is bunk but a few things always have the ability to reach out and grab you as tantalizing what if's.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:50 am

chimp, re: your diatribe about such and forth...

cuba, I believe, has beaten the U.S. in baseball
Salsa, not ketchup or any other, is now the #1 condiment in the U.S..
we also have a huge abundance of indian food here in the states. Mostly, I think, because it fucking tastes awesome.

as an aside, my british footballing team mates often say 'if only those god damned packies could play footie instead of cricket, we might just have a decent run at euro 2003'

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:53 am

also, regarding people trying to excersise their control issues on this here eplaya. Erm, please don't. The last place I would want to hang out if I were feeling overly sensitive would a contentious eplaya thread. Shit can get nasty, in a well spoken kind of way.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:58 am

stuart scanlon wrote:also, regarding people trying to excersise their control issues on this here eplaya. Erm, please don't. The last place I would want to hang out if I were feeling overly sensitive would a contentious eplaya thread. Shit can get nasty, in a well spoken kind of way.

All a lot of us want is a PLONK button like you can find on a lot of other boards so we can filter out a few of the more offensive threads or posters. For the most part I don't expect it to get a lot of use with this open minded group, but when we need it...we really need it.

chickenfish · Post by **chickenfish** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:59 am

read the next one....

chickenfish · Post by **chickenfish** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:00 am

I've always been interested in theories, but I am more interested in investigative reporting, and theories based upon facts. I've read a lot of new age/conspiracy type stuff, and the majority is WAY OUT, but the more you dig, the more you find stuff that is corroborated from other sources. I am reading a book right now by Nick Cook, a writer for Janes Defense Weekly, called "The Hunt for Zero point". It brings a lot of new information to light about Project Paperclip, which I had only briefly heard about in the past, and about the underground world of military Black Budgets. How many millions (billions?) of our taxpayer dollars go into unchecked secret military programs? Who oversees these programs? How do we know they are in "our" best interest? I highly doubt they are. And these programs are real, they generated the F117A stealth fighter and the B2 stealth bomber, two very real aircraft that are now out in the open, but were developed secretly all through the 1980's. I wonder...

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:15 am

I'm going to find that book, the black budgets have interested me for years. I'd make sure and use Billions....millions would not even begin to cover those budgets.

I pay attention to military things like the Soviets testing the stealth characteristics of a new sub although they are hurting for money to keep the crew paid adequately....little off the wall blurbs like that catch my attention. Or stuff like in private comments, experts feel the DPRK has 6 to 10 working nukes....

I'll try to get that book this week and check it out.

chickenfish · Post by **chickenfish** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:34 pm

hey kinetic,
heres some info on that book.
"The hunt for Zero point"
by Nick Cook
www.broadwaybooks.com
CF

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:02 pm

So my friend made the point that in the early 90s under Bush I, the clique of Rumsfeld, Wolfewitz, Chenney et. al. were refered to as "the kooks" by the mainstream republicans. It occurred to me that Hilter and his clique were called similar names by the establishment in Weimar Germany. Also both Hitler and Bush were "elected." I am NOT saying that the current ruling clique are nazis, but I think those historical coincidences are interesting.

I'm going home to do anti-anxiety exercises now. Thank you very much.

antron · Post by **antron** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:10 pm

blyslv wrote:I'm going home to do anti-anxiety exercises now. Thank you very much.

and after those, have a cocktail!

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:29 am

Stuart wrote:

"My british footballing team mates often say 'if only those god damned packies could play footie instead of cricket, we might just have a decent run at euro 2003"

A) Sounds like your friends are idiots or racists or both.
B) I find it hard to believe this statement not having heard anyone outside of the BNP / National Front refer to Indians as 'Packis' since my seventies space hopping, chopper riding childhood
C) It would be spelt 'Paki' as in Pakistani
D) Pakistan is a different country to India (the country I referred to I believe) so the slur is misplaced.
E) The chances of this statement having any relation to the truth are about as slim as the chances of your government treating the people at Guatanamo Bay like human beings deserving of 'human rights'.
F) I have yet to hear an English footballer say 'godamned...' anything.
G) If Pakistan played football we would still have to play Italy, Germany, France and so on so it would hardly make it any easier, in fact more likely to make it harder

ACTUALLY then again, as Pakistan isn't part of Europe it would make no difference at all to Euro 2003 - so in fact this specious statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

I stand by my first point then

Idiots and racists ( Perhaps thats why they moved stateside, either that or they are crap at football and figured the only way to possibly ever win a match was to play americans)

he he he

"Hold on tight baby / It's such along way down"

Saint Low - long Way Down

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:00 am

make love not war.

come to the alice's love shack throwdown.

c-510-233-2914

when: now til thurs
why: because i needs you baby.

scheduled activites:

-costume and finery
-november games
-band practice
-virtual radio show
-hot tubbin
-fire sports
-crafty stuff
-movies
-music
-dancing
-concert
-drumming

and much, much more.

come join the party; you are already a member.

JezebelinHell · Post by **JezebelinHell** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:54 am

Trying to make it. Just gotta bribe someone to pick up my shifts this weekend, make sure the car's not gonna fall apart, and buy some Peeps. I think I can do it.

lurker · Post by **lurker** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:38 am

It's like getting stuck on the kiddie coaster, round and round it goes. The first few times it's kinda fun, but eventually you start to puke...

Anyway as I have said over and over, please try to realistically engage with the issues at hand

realism? that's quite a departure for you, are you sure you can take it?

Seriously, an old maxim 'if you don't have anything constructive to say keep it fucking zipped'

Well, you said it, but then you kept on typing......kinda defeats the piont, yes?

Look this empire crap is a mute point, no one I know is proud of the worst excesses of the British empire and no one I know would like to see another one, be it US based or not. However it's not only tea you have to thank us for but electricity, telephones, cricket, the national health service (oh sorry you make poor people pay for healthcare still doncha), the theory of evolution, the discovery of gravity, the first successfully cloned animal - I think the list goes on hey? And also as no name pointed out more than a few fantastic women have come from this sceptred isle (Women have led our country many times over the centuries)

the british empire invented electricity? and discovered gravity? heheheheheeee. That Newton thing, with the apple, it wasn't about 'discovering' gravity, brainiac. read a book. jeez

But why, pray tell, are you pointing out the good that the British Empire did, anyway? After all, yer against it, right? Or just against the bad things it did and wholly supportive of the good--do I have that right? the same position you deny to yanks? thought so...

Also we actually gladly gave up our empire,

Rilly? Guess all them wars were for naught? And ain't there some Irish people still tryin' to move your asses out? Seems like you had your empire ripped from grasping fingers, mate--even now there're still remnants of it floating about.

which was as much built upon the ideals of good healthcare, electricity and education etc for the whole world as it was upon a show of military might (which is all your fucking empire would be)

Funny, that. You don't see people rushing to England for cutting edge medical treatment--but damned if we can't keep them out--but why talk about now, when exactly did the Empire establish it's universal (I can't bring myself to call it 'good) healthcare system? And your education system is classist to a horrifying degree--people getting taught exactly what they need to know for the slot they're gonna get inserted in. It scares me. Our education system might be crap, but we don't have some gray faced lordling deciding that junior only gets to have a sixth grade education because the UK needs some bricklayers and he's a slow starter.

And 'military might'. Ha. The US could wade in to gods know how many countries and just take them. And no one could stop them. But they don't.

Why?

Can't imagine you lot ever being beaten by Iraq at baseball the way we are by India at cricket. Mutual appreciation of culture ya see?

Mutual appreciation of BRITISH culture, Chimp--as you so succintly pointed out, cricket is a BRITISH thing. What part of Indian culture are you appreciating there? That they kickied your ass? At a game your coloialism forced upon them?

Will Iraq ever field an American style football team(gods, I hope not, I can't stand football)? Probably not--because we're not going to destroy their culture by making them a colony....like Britain did to India. We're gonna leave when we're done.

And there's another funny bit. How all the actual colonial powers whine about how the US might follow in their footsteps.

Over here the favourite dish is curry not McDonalds

Over here we're real big on mexican food. And chinese. And japanese. And italian. The favorite dish is definately not McDonalds. McDonalds is crap you eat when you don't have time to eat anything else. Oh, we're getting into fish'n'chips lately, too.

What the hell was your point here? That you take offense that your countrymen eat enough McDonalds food to made it lucrative in the UK? To bad, if you don't like it, don't eat it. I hate the dogfood that passes for mexican at Taco Bell, so I don't eat it. I don't blame Mexicans for it.

and we have thousands of Hindu temples and places for people of all religions to pratice their faith

.

Bonzo, we have so many faiths with so many places for them to pray in this country that we included it in our Constitution. We don't have a state religion here (CofE), we have so many religions, sects, schisms and cults that we don't know what to do with them all. After you've attended services, in England, of the Church of Elvis, then come and talk to me about religious diversity. Tolerate them? Hell, we encourage them.

Also our leader doesn't constantly bang on about god to defend his nasty little gang of thieves and their agenda.

Your leader--one of them anyway, is the head of the C of E. She doesn't have to bang on about it, she's the equivalent of the pope.

Y'know what, Chimp? I've got nothing against England--or the British Empire--we wouldn't be where we are if it wasn't for bonny old England. I don't even really have anything against you.

I just get irked, y'know. Everyone knows better--but nobody has any actual solutions. Talk more. We WERE talking when idiots flew into the WTC. Didn't you notice that? Right after 9/11 indymedia and the rest were going on about how Bushco had just okayed money for the Taliban--but even with that they STILL hit us. So we're talking--AND paying, and for what? Negoitiate. Negotiate what? Every time anyone tries the violence ratchets up.

You titled this War! What is it good for? well the song's right, Chimp. Absolutely nothing. War is not good. It's what happens when your back hits the wall, when the first punch doesn't knock you out. It's not good, but sometimes it's all there is...

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:28 am

first, dude, get a sense of humor.

second, what country WAS a part of india while your country was 'ahem' administering it?

third, where is patrick viera originally from and what country does he now (as a world cup winner no less) represent?

and fourth, I have to agree with Tom, while I did bait you, and thanks for the awesome take, you in no way replied to the substance of my critique. You simply made stylistic attacks.

What about the Cuban baseball team and the salsa statement?

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:41 am

Whew...I thought I wrote long posts. Lurker's post leaves me impressed.

Going off on a tangent, I have to say I was impressed that the British were able to fight the Falkland Islands war from such a long distance away, used container ships as makeshift carriers for the Harriers and came up with other innovations that are still in military use today.

The Brits are not that bad. Now since it's cold, yucky and raining here and I'm sick with bronchitus, I'm going to enjoy some of that awesome hot tea now....I happen to like Harrods online as I can get almost anything I need, anytime I want it. Like my tea!

(I still don't get their version of football and why it's so damn popular. I like American indoor soccer better)

Patience · Post by **Patience** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:00 pm

lurker wrote: You titled this War! What is it good for? well the song's right, Chimp. Absolutely nothing. War is not good. It's what happens when your back hits the wall, when the first punch doesn't knock you out. It's not good, but sometimes it's all there is...

Problem is, Iraq did not throw the first punch. The U.S. did. And the second, and the third, ad nauseum. It was not the only option available to us, not by a longshot. The attack on Iraq was unprovoked an unnecessary. Yes, it has had the positive result of removing Saddam from power. But unless you subscribe to the "end justifies the means" camp, this is irrelevant. The WMD thing turned out to be hogwash, Iraq posited no threat whatsoever to America, and the "liberation" angle was PR.

I won't bother to enumerate all the horrible results of this war that accompany the one benefit. I think they are obvious enough. And again, it's not the results of the war I find as astonishing as the dangerous precedent set by initiating an unprovoked war, using "pre-emption" as justification.

What you describe above, war as what happens when your back is against the wall, etc., aptly fits the war in one regard: it is appropriate to the response of the Iraqis, whose nation was bombarded and invaded without just cause by the most powerful military in the world. That is what it is to have your back against the wall.

The U.S. only entered WWII after Pearl Harbor. Now, whether or not we should have acted earlier is debatable. But the brutality, malice and threat to the world posed by Hitler's Reich was unquestionably greater than that of Hussein, whose military had not so much as stepped a toe outside of Iraq since the first Gulf War, and had been cut in half through military sanctions and the U.N. inspections process. It seems to me that the U.S. government once regarded war as you do--a last resort, sometimes regrettably necessary. But when we look at Vietnam and the two Gulf Wars, I think we see the opposite--a government gung ho to fire off some rounds and drop some bombs on some distant land, without provocation or even clear reason other than the expansion of its own power and influence, in the name of "democracy" and "freedom."

PJ · Post by PJ » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:42 pm

Patience wrote:...Problem is, Iraq did not throw the first punch.

Yeah, it would have been way more fair to let Saddam keep Kuwait and maybe invade some more neighboring countries and their oil fields first. Lots more American military people would get killed if the battles were more-balanced but chivalry demands it.

Al Qaida struck the first blow; the response was to eradicate their presence in Afghanistan as well as their sponsors. Billions will be wasted on dubious defensive measures so that lots of people's asses are covered from blame the next time a surprise attack succeeds. (Meanwhile the Feds are dragging their heels as hard as they can to prevent airline pilots from carrying pistols--the one simple, inexpensive, and common-sense measure that would have stopped the 9-11 attacks well before any planes were crashed.)

Patience wrote:...the brutality, malice and threat to the world posed by Hitler's Reich was unquestionably greater than that of Hussein...

Not in 1936. Either England or France could stopped Hitler with their armies--or a spy armed with .22 pistol--before things got out-of-hand. But negotiating with him and appeasing him was more gentlemanly. And it brought "Peace in Our Time."

Fuck that. Psychotic international bullies need to be eliminated; all the talk in the world won't ever change that.

chickenfish · Post by **chickenfish** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:44 pm

Fuck that. Psychotic international bullies need to be eliminated; all the talk in the world won't ever change that.[/quote]

I agree someone get rid of bush quick

meander · Post by **meander** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:04 pm

what I wonder about are these foreigners who are so quick to claim Americans are apathetic/lazy/uninformed--do they really think our government represents the will of the people?

They all witnessed our election debacle: can they still believe that the average American has a direct voice in how our gov't is run or any real influence on what actions the President or Congress takes?

There have been Peace Rallies all over the nation since the war began: many US citizens have voiced their opposition and frustration about the war, but what do we do beyond that?

If you have any solutions Chimp, send them our way...or just continue the lame McDonalds stereotypes...

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:15 pm

PJ wrote:Al Qaida struck the first blow;

Not from their prespective. It was a response to continued American troop garrisoning in the Holy Land (Saudi Arabia). And to them, that's the only prespective that counts. I'm not saying it's right, but their worldview is much different from ours. And as long as they have the will and the means to continue killing us, I thing it would be a good idea for us to try and understand their perspective as much as possible. This isn't appeasment. Know your enemy has been good advice for millenia.

PJ · Post by PJ » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:27 pm

blyslv wrote:
PJ wrote:Al Qaida struck the first blow;
Not from their prespective. It was a response to continued American troop garrisoning in the Holy Land (Saudi Arabia). And to them, that's the only prespective that counts. I'm not saying it's right, but their worldview is much different from ours. And as long as they have the will and the means to continue killing us, I thing it would be a good idea for us to try and understand their perspective as much as possible. This isn't appeasment. Know your enemy has been good advice for millenia.

Good points; I guess what I meant was "Al Qaida struck the first blow that most Americans cared about." US troops soiling somebody's holy land just isn't a hot-button item 'round home. Which makes me glad--I wouldn't want to live anywhere near a theocracy of any flavor. Far more Americans are crusaders for their favorite pro sports team than for any particular religion. (Not that there aren't a handful of religious fanatics around, but it's nothing like it was a hundred years ago.)

In any case US forces are being removed from Saudi Arabia; this would be a great opportunity for Al Qaida to declare victory and disband, and close out the secret bank accounts.

WAR! What is it good for?

d'uh

I've had enough of the Bushit

BLACK PROJECTS

BLACK PROJECTS

speaking of cocktails...

great post lurker