UTAH rave Busted by SWAT team...video included

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:15 am

as posted by Knick/Evol Intent
Last night, I was booked to play an event about an hour outside of Salt Lake City, Utah. The hype behind this show was huge, they presold 700 tickets and they expected up to 3,000 people total. The promoters did an amazing job with the show.. they even made slipmats with the flyers on them to promote in local shops.

So, we got to the show around 11:15 or so and it was really cool. It was all outdoors, in a valley surrounded by huge mountains. They had an amazing light show flashing on to a mountain behind the site, the sound was booming, the crowd was about 1500 people thick and everything just seemed too good to be true really. Well...

At about 11:30 or so, I was standing behind the stage talking with someone when I noticed a helicopter pulling over one of the mountain tops. I jokingly said "Oh look, here comes big brother" to the person I was with. I wasn't far off.

The helicopter dipped lower and lower and started shining its lights on the crowd. I was kind of in awe and just sat and watched this thing circle us for a minute. As I looked back towards the crowd I saw a guy dressed in camoflauge walking by, toting an assault rifle. At this point, everyone was fully aware of what was going on . A few "troops" rushed the stage and cut the sound off and started yelling that everyone "get the fuck out of here or go to jail". This is where it got really sticky.

No one resisted. That's for sure. They had police dogs raiding the crowd of people and I saw a dog signal out a guy who obviously had some drugs on him. The soldiers attacked the guy (4 of them on 1), and kicked him a few times in the ribs and had their knees in his back and sides. As they were cuffing him, there was about 1000 kids trying to leave in the backdrop, peacefully. Next thing I know, A can of fucking TEAR GAS is launched into the crowd. People are running and screaming at this point. Girls are crying, guys are cussing... bad scene.

Now, this is all I saw with my own eyes, but I heard plenty of other accounts of the night. Now this isnt gossip I heard from some candy raver, these are instances cited straight out of the promoters mouth..

- One of the promoters friends (a very small female) was attacked by one of the police dogs. As she struggled to get away from it, the police tackled her. 3 grown men proceeded to KICK HER IN THE STOMACH.

- The police confiscated 3 video tapes in total. People were trying to document what was happening out there. The police saw one guy filming and ran after him, tackled him and his camera fell, and luckily.. his friend grabbed it and ran and got away. priceless footage. That's not all though. Out of 1,500 people, there's sure to be more footage.

- The police were rounding up the staff of the party and the main promoter went up to them with the permit for the show and said "here, I have the permit." The police then said, "no you don't" and ripped the permit out of his hand. Then, they put an assault rifle to his forehead and said "get the fuck out of here right now."

Now.. let's get the facts straight here.

This event was 100% legal. They had every permit the city told them they needed. They had a 2 MILLION DOLLAR insurance policy for the event. They had liscenced security guards at the gates confiscating any alcohol or drugs found upon entry (yes, they searched every car on the way in). Oh, I suppose I should mention that they arrested all the security guards for possession.

Oh another interesting fact.. the police did not have a warrant. The owner of the land already has a lawsuit against the city for something similar. A few months ago, she rented her land for a party and the police raided that as well. And catch this, the police forced her to LEAVE HER OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY. That's right. They didnt arrest her, but made her leave her own property!!!

Don't get it twisted, this is all going down in probably THE most conservative state in the USA. And this is scary.. a gross violation of our civil liberties. The police wanted this party shut down, so they made it happen. Even though everything about this event was legal. The promoters spent over $ 20,000 on this show and did everything they had to to make it legit, only to have it taken away from them by a group of radical neo-con's with an agenda.

This was one of the scariest things I have ever witnessed in person. I can't even begin to describe how surreal it was. Helicopters, assault rifles, tear gas, camoflauge-wearing soldiers.... why? Was that really necessary?

This needs to be big news across the USofA. At least in our music scene (edm as a whole)... this could happen to any of us at any time. When we're losing the right to gather peacefully, we're also letting the police set a standard of what we can get away with. And I think that's BULLSHIT!

The system fucked up last night... They broke up a party that was 100% legal and they physically hurt a lot of people there at the same time. The promoters already have 6 lawsuits ready to file with their lawyers and the ACLU is already involved.

I'm sure some pictures (and hopefully some video) will surface soon. I'll make sure to post them up here on 404, so you can see the Police State of America at work.

Visit www.utraves.com for more info or to show your support !!

Here's the video of the PIGS using excessive force at a rave: http://homepage.mac.com/apexgrin/FileSharing2.html

Whether you like rave/ravers or NOT, the UTAH police were out of line !! The person in the red hoodie getting kicked is a girl with NO weapons...why the fuck did they kick her time after time ?? Fucking cops are lame...there are more drugs and violence at ANY given raap or rock concert.

DISCUSS.

~John - Reno, Nevada

Post by **AntiM** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:36 am

I can't get your links to open.

Utah county is notoriously rigid and conservative, possibly the worst choice in the entire state for any type of gathering.

local news coverage:

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_233220802.html

Interesting how the local media spins it.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:26 am

i'd like to see a copy of the permits authorizing the rave.

otherwise, i withhold comment.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:57 am

dj_john69 wrote:This event was 100% legal.

Sue the city. They'll pay you a shitload of money and it will never happen again. Problem solved!

Post by **AntiM** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:06 am

http://www.4utah.com/mediacenter/defaul ... eoId=23198

Another take from local Utah media (sorry about the ad, can't get around it). This coverage explains the permit was from the Health Dept., but that one from the county was not obtained.

This party took place outside city limits, they'd have to sue Utah County.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:14 am

stupidity isn't illegal,
yet stupidity can get you arrested.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:32 am

http://www.harktheherald.com/modules.ph ... =0&thold=0

"They also verified that more than 250 people were at the party in violation of county statutes."

"At least 60 arrests were made for weapons offenses, DUI, illegal underage consumption of alcohol, possessions of marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamine and ecstasy."

A 17-year-old West Jordan female had overdosed on ecstasy. She was treated by EMS personnel and released to her parents.

"Gilbert said a large number of the rave's participants were local teenagers from Spanish Fork, Springville, Provo and Payson. Many also were from the Salt Lake and Davis county areas."

"He said rave party drugs were offered to a local off-duty emergency medical service personnel who were contracted to be at the rave. Two security personnel hired by the promoter also were arrested for possession of cocaine and ecstasy."

I sympathize with you, but, over-limit, underage attendees, weapons, drugs, security personnel on drugs and dealers = don't be surprised you got busted. Party responsibly.

MrGAJ5001 · Post by **MrGAJ5001** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:45 am

It's very rare that an event which truly is 100% legal ends up busted up by the cops.

In fact, the cops, generally, don't get involved, even if it's MOSTLY legal. Here are some examples: School....Church....

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:31 pm

dj_john69 wrote:Now this isnt gossip I heard from some candy raver, these are instances cited straight out of the promoters mouth..
...
DISCUSS.

Well, one thing I know from playing music for the last ten years is, always believe everything a promoter tells you.

-c
"By the way, which one is Pink?"

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:37 pm

I think that one reason that Larry Harvey ended up being Mr. Burning Man despite being only one of several people who contributed vital componants of its shape today is that he's competant at dealing with the beauracracies and getting permits and such. This is no small thing. I think that something similier happened in the 60s with Bill Graham. I think that there is also a like tension between (visual) artists and galleries and of course bands and agents and record labels. IMHO>

Gizmo · Post by **Gizmo** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:52 pm

"I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED to learn that there is gambling
going on in the back room of Ric's Cafe."
The French police captain in Casablanca

Big raves=lots of young people doing lots of drugs.
The promoters know it and even the biggest retard on
the police force knows it. Duh! Ever tried listening to techno
music sober?

b00m3rang · Post by **b00m3rang** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:24 pm

Gizmo wrote:Big raves=lots of young people doing lots of drugs.
The promoters know it and even the biggest retard on
the police force knows it. Duh! Ever tried listening to techno
music sober?

Big raves=lots of young people doing lots of drugs.
Concerts=lots of young people doing lots of drugs.
High School=lots of young people doing lots of drugs.
Summer Vacation=lots of young people doing lots of drugs.

I don't care how many people are on drugs. The officer can say, "Come with me" or whatever, and THEN start kicking and punching 16yo girls IF they don't comply. Considering there were only 60 arrests out of somewhere between several hundred and a thousand people, most of which being for resisting arrest and not drug charges, there couldn't have been THAT many violations. Not enough to provoke that kind of response anyway.

Jordan 10-E · Post by **Jordan 10-E** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:37 am

I posted this on the other thread but here goes again.

I was at this event. It was my generator that ran the second stage. If you look at the film footage from the helicopter you can see my truck and generator. All the people involved are my friends and people I have known for years.

I do not have a great deal of time to go into what happened because I am getting ready for Burning Man but I can say that this is not merely a PERMIT issue. This is an issue about the fundamental freedoms to gather an be unmolested by law enforcement. If any of you had been there and seen the chaos the police casued (in their camo/riot gear/black masks/machine guns) you would be scared. If you wanted to know what it feels like to be in a war zone you should have been there. Most people that where arrested were attacked without provocation. I was almost one of them. When I asked to go back to my truck which was the opposite direction of the way the wanted people to go I unconciously put my had in my pocket. Before I knew it the nazi cop had grabbed my wrist and violently pulled my had out of my pocket. "What are getting in your pocket?!!!" I said nothing and backed up. Along with the two cops/thugs on the sides of him the formed a line and came right at me I backed up at least 10 to 15 steps. They were about ready to pounce. I was lucky. Many people were not so lucky for putting theirs hands in their pockets or some other horribly suspicious activity.

Before you suddenly judge the wrong way think if this is the way your country should be run. This is not a permit issue. The promoters got the permits. The one permit in question is a mass gathering permit of over 250. This was the EXCUSE to bring in the calvary. The fact is that they would NEVER grant such a permit in the first place (and they know this) so to say it was a permit issue is misleading. It is a CONTROL issue (in the worst sense possible).

I can honestly say I have attended more Utah raves than any other person (I guarantee it is true). I have long meant to write a book about raves and the law. I have seen countless abuses by law enforcement over the years, but I have never seen such a disqusting display of force in my life!

I don't have time to write more, but this is not just about drugs or permits or whatever, it is much more than that.

The cops have lied and distorted the issues revolving around the case (as they usually do). Part of the reason they did the raid was to create an impression in people's minds (parents, etc) is to BRAND electronic music events as bad, without any redeeming qualities at all. They obviously can't pull over every car onthe road or enter every person's house to find the drugs they are so desparately looking for so they create situations where they can bypass the usual restrictions on what they can and can't do so the can find them. All they have to do is show up and suddenly there is a situation in where they can search you...look suspicious, resistance of ANY sort, wrong place wrong time.

The fact is no one was there but who was there. Without video cameras the outside world would have believed every word the cops said on the news. See that's the thing. Cops can lie most of the time and get away with it. They are still distorting the "facts" to justify their tactics.

I don't have time to fight it all now because I am going to BM in two days, but I for one am not finshed here.

BTW, this is only ONE of the MANY MANY stories I have about law enforcement abuses over the years.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:48 pm

Jordan 10-E wrote:If you wanted to know what it feels like to be in a war zone you should have been there. ... Before I knew it the nazi cop had grabbed my wrist and violently pulled my had out of my pocket

One of the things I learned after some time as an observer, activist and, well, counteroperative in the northwest environmentalist movement, (Timber Salvage Rider days) is to be suspicious of EVERYBODY'S claims and pay particular attention to the language used.

"If you wanted to know what it feels like to be in a war zone, you should have been there." Really? Birds and feral dogs eating bloated, rotting corpses in the streets? Innocent women, children, men and animals blown to pieces by explosion or errant fire? Uncountable millions of flies feasting on the dead? People shitting themselves from fear or as they're being blown limb from limb? What exactly was the casualty count in your war zone?

Also, nazi/cop. I was raised by a cop who also happened to have been tortured by the Gestapo, imprisoned at Stalag XVII-B and left to die at concentration/slave labor death camp. He wiped brains off his face belonging to a dead jew who sacrified his own life to help a dying GI to his feet. Shot through the head right on the spot by the SS while rows of partially-cremated corpses piled six, eight feet high smoldered in the chilly air behind them. While children and the elderly dug their own mass graves, naked, in the snow, before being machine-gunned down en masse.

You know, I don't think busting a rave, no matter how violently, equates.

One time I witnessed environmentalist outrage at a Forest Service cop who allegedly hit an activist with his truck and didn't stop. It turns out the activist jumped at the truck as it was slowly passing...maybe 5mph... and got nailed by the wing mirror. If you jump at a moving truck, it's going to hit you. If your friends are banging on the truck as it passes, the driver isn't necessarily going to be able to tell one bump from another...

...but to hear the activists tell it, he was a "machine-gun" carrying nazi cop who deliberately committed hit and run.

Heard it all before. It gets thicker and deeper as it radiates from the source, and there's ALWAYS the word "Nazi."

Did you get your hand pulled out of your pocket because you jammed it IN your pocket during a police bust? In Portland, people have been shot for that. Subsequent Mass outrage ignores the fact that the person had outstanding warrants, had just tried to swallow a lethal amount of cocaine to keep the police from finding it, etc. Officer Damon Coates was shot in the face after giving a split-second benefit of doubt to a teenager who pulled a gun.

I've seen police brutality, I've seen honest outrage go unnoticed because of exaggeration and cliche. I'm sorry, but because of the hyperbolic language used, I must remain skeptical.

And I never, ever, ever trust promoters.
-c

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:53 pm

I sympathize with you, but, over-limit, underage attendees, weapons, drugs, security personnel on drugs and dealers = don't be surprised you got busted. Party responsibly

dallas, you are making huge leaps of logic based on shakey assumption.

over-limit: no, they had a mass gathering permit

underage attendees: how were they under age? It's legal for kids to be at burning man.

weapons: I would get busted for weapons charges at that event because I carry a leatherman

drugs: got me there, more than likely.

security personnel on drugs: actually, no. Security confiscated drugs and were busted when they tried to forfeit these to the police.

Party responsibly: seems to me like they made a good faith effort to do so. Seems irrational to hold a promoter to higher standard than that.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:28 pm

stuart wrote:
I sympathize with you, but, over-limit, underage attendees, weapons, drugs, security personnel on drugs and dealers = don't be surprised you got busted. Party responsibly
dallas, you are making huge leaps of logic based on shakey assumption.

over-limit: no, they had a mass gathering permit

underage attendees: how were they under age? It's legal for kids to be at burning man.

weapons: I would get busted for weapons charges at that event because I carry a leatherman

drugs: got me there, more than likely.

security personnel on drugs: actually, no. Security confiscated drugs and were busted when they tried to forfeit these to the police.

Party responsibly: seems to me like they made a good faith effort to do so. Seems irrational to hold a promoter to higher standard than that.

Well, I give up. We're getting conflicting stories about whether there was a permit or not. I think the line about security "confiscating" drugs and "turning them over to police" is laughable. Who is that dumb?

MrGAJ5001 · Post by **MrGAJ5001** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:45 pm

I strongly appreciate the comparisons between a real war-zone and this so-called "war-zone".

Unreal...

Nazi's? For crying out loud. A Nazi is merely one who belongs to the Nazi political party. This party still exists. To call someone who's overbearing a nazi is crazy. To call cops nazi's is probably just flat incorrect. To call brutality nazi behavior would insult the millions or billions of people who have suffered brutality at the hands of those who are not nazi's.

Did they have a permit, did they not have a permit, blah blah blah.

They had a mass-gathering permit? Let's see it. Pardon my skepticism, but I, still, haven't seen a .pdf copy of the permit. This goes for ALL the "required permits".

Underage Attendees: How were they underage? Well...that question really ought to be rhetorical, right? They were under the policy age, without parent or guardian (a stipulation Burning Man has, actually).

You would get busted for carrying Leatherman? Then don't. Arguing what a "weapon" is and isn't doesn't save you from fines, jail time, etc. If you think it's a weapon, it's a weapon. If SOMEBODY CAN think it's a weapon, it's a weapon. Just don't fucking bring them.

Drugs? This is a no-brainer.

Security personnel on drugs? It would shock me to hear that you're willing to stand up for EVERY security guy on site, and say he hadn't smoked pot, or been drunk, etc.

Busted by trying to "forfeit drugs to the police"? Lordy. Should I even need to explain my dismay at this? What did they do? Walk over to a cop and say, "Oh, hey, by the way, we grabbed a bunch of drugs off the kids coming into this event, but...you can have 'em.". Lordy.

If it seems irrational to hold a promoter to the event, then it's irrational to hold the president to the war. Invariably, the guy in charge IS the guy in charge, and he needs to respond.

Amen to the trusting a promoter.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:57 pm

our local promoter from hell
http://www.berkeleydaily.org/article.cf ... ryID=13310
http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/opin ... ryID=13476

He was in the San Francisco paper (possibly under a different name) earlier this year for more of the same.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:35 pm

They were under the policy age, without parent or guardian

show me a .pdf of the policy for a private party on private land

You would get busted for carrying Leatherman? Then don't.

that's a joke right? I need one to do my job. Or to help out some jerk who was not smart enough to bring simple tools to an outdoor event. Still, given the context and history, I could be arrested for it (with the chrages being thrown out later). Are you telling me I'm a criminal for carrying tools? Fuck that shit.

If SOMEBODY CAN think it's a weapon, it's a weapon

thankfully the burden of proof you require is not too frequently applied in our courts.

Security personnel on drugs? It would shock me to hear that you're willing to stand up for EVERY security guy on site, and say he hadn't smoked pot, or been drunk, etc.

at the events I have worked the hired security were stone cold sober and had no sense of humor about drugs. So, please feel free to remain shocked.

Should I even need to explain my dismay at this

certainly not, your iron clad conjecture will continue to satisfy me.

What did they do?

specifically? I did not bear witness to that. But you feel free to continue to make assumptions based on your vast experience and then create straw man scenarios.

If it seems irrational to hold a promoter to the event, then it's irrational to hold the president to the war. Invariably, the guy in charge IS the guy in charge, and he needs to respond.

what was it again we were holding him for? Thanks for tipping your hat vis a vis your sieve like analogy. Did you want me to explain to you why argument by analogy is a fools errand in general or did you want to poke holes in this specific one?

Amen to the trusting a promoter.

amen to 4 cops beating a prone and subdued kid.

Jordan 10-E · Post by **Jordan 10-E** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:50 pm

Yeah I would still compare it to a war zone. The tactics used were virtually exactly the same as would be used in a real war zone. I am sorry to hear about the person that raised you that was in a concentration camp. That is horrible. I would never belittle that. If I were to use terms other than Nazi maybe I could get my point across better... some would be authoritarian, overreactive, unjustified, unnecessary, militaristic, etc... I think my comparision to a war zone is still appropriate. Ever heard of a slippery slope? Piece by piece, action by action, each one of our freedoms that we hold so high is being eaten away by more and more control, more and more questionable actions. Police, laws, prosecuters. Why did the Nazi's come to power and have the ability to cause such damage to the world? Are all the German people evil? How could it happen? The greatest atrocities the world has ever known. How? Because people traded their freedom to overcome their fears. They sat and watched, joined in even, to alliviate their fears. Some sought to resist, but found out the hard way what resistance means. Situations like what happened here, no matter how many drugs there were or not, are huge steps down that slippery slope. And finally, do you know why it is called a slippery slope? That's because at first you start out slow but soon it takes on a momentum of it's own and only speeds up faster and faster till before you know it you have crashed. So if you all feel safer now for what the entire Utah County law enforcement did last weekend then I hope you sleep well in your false comfort.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:56 pm

Jordan 10-E wrote:How? Because people traded their freedom to overcome their fears. They sat and watched, joined in even, to alliviate their fears.

Hilter's rise to power was through fear tactics?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:08 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

In reference to Jordan 10-E's post.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:42 pm

Jordan 10-E wrote:Yeah I would still compare it to a war zone. The tactics used were virtually exactly the same as would be used in a real war zone. I am sorry to hear about the person that raised you that was in a concentration camp. That is horrible. I would never belittle that. If I were to use terms other than Nazi maybe I could get my point across better... some would be authoritarian, overreactive, unjustified, unnecessary, militaristic, etc... I think my comparision to a war zone is still appropriate. Ever heard of a slippery slope? Piece by piece, action by action, each one of our freedoms that we hold so high is being eaten away by more and more control, more and more questionable actions. Police, laws, prosecuters. Why did the Nazi's come to power and have the ability to cause such damage to the world? Are all the German people evil? How could it happen? The greatest atrocities the world has ever known. How? Because people traded their freedom to overcome their fears. They sat and watched, joined in even, to alliviate their fears. Some sought to resist, but found out the hard way what resistance means. Situations like what happened here, no matter how many drugs there were or not, are huge steps down that slippery slope. And finally, do you know why it is called a slippery slope? That's because at first you start out slow but soon it takes on a momentum of it's own and only speeds up faster and faster till before you know it you have crashed. So if you all feel safer now for what the entire Utah County law enforcement did last weekend then I hope you sleep well in your false comfort.

I think most of us are trying to explain to you that you are choosing the wrong battle. An illegal, overcrowded rave with security people on drugs is not the right battle. If you don't like the law, change it instead of bitching when you get busted. It's good that you care. I'd guess most of us here do. Don't spin your wheels over nothing because a greedy and/or stupid promoter fucked up.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:33 am

Jordan 10-E wrote:Yeah I would still compare it to a war zone. The tactics used were virtually exactly the same as would be used in a real war zone.

Really? Were bullets fired?

My brother called last week from western Iraq to tell me that they had just blown up an entire village (owned by non-jihadist smugglers who were profiteering off of regional instability and who had killed 14 Marines earlier this month...interesting story, by the way.)

The last time he wrote home, he'd had to tape a kid's eyeball to the kid's cheek after part of his face had been blown off.

Sorry about your rave.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:45 am

That was harsh.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:53 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Jordan 10-E wrote:Yeah I would still compare it to a war zone. The tactics used were virtually exactly the same as would be used in a real war zone.
Really? Were bullets fired?

My brother called last week from western Iraq to tell me that they had just blown up an entire village controlled by smugglers who were profiteering off of regional instability (and who had killed 14 Marines earlier this month...interesting story, by the way)

The last time he wrote home, he'd had to tape a kid's eyeball to the kid's cheek after part of his face had been blown off.

Sorry about your rave.

Kinetic IV wrote:That was harsh.

appropriately so.

MoisturePup · Post by **MoisturePup** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:54 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Jordan 10-E wrote:Yeah I would still compare it to a war zone. The tactics used were virtually exactly the same as would be used in a real war zone.
Really? Were bullets fired?

My brother called last week from western Iraq to tell me that they had just blown up an entire village (owned by non-jihadist smugglers who were profiteering off of regional instability and who had killed 14 Marines earlier this month...interesting story, by the way.)

The last time he wrote home, he'd had to tape a kid's eyeball to the kid's cheek after part of his face had been blown off.

Sorry about your rave.

What's your point Zaphod? Is your point that worse things are happening elsewhere and that we should just let our personal freedoms erode small bits at a time back home because those bigger things which are way beyond our control should take precedence over retaining our own freedoms back home?

Or are you suggesting that somebody should only have narrow interests, like stopping an unjust war, rather than multiple issues.

You draw lines where there are none.

What caused the war in Iraq is not so dissimilar to what caused this electronic music event to be crashed by a SWAT team. Closed minded, underinformed, greedy politicians hungry for power no matter what the cost. (ie, the Utah County sheriff is not so different from President Bush when it comes to crushing so-called "evil doers" to scare people into voting for them.)

Jordan 10-E · Post by **Jordan 10-E** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:59 am

Rob the Wop wrote:
Jordan 10-E wrote:How? Because people traded their freedom to overcome their fears. They sat and watched, joined in even, to alliviate their fears.
Hilter's rise to power was through fear tactics?

You need to read more history.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:12 am

Ok, Hitler and Nazis have came up twice in here. If that doesn't invoke Godwin's Law nothing will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:19 am

MoisturePup wrote:
ZaphodBurner wrote:
Jordan 10-E wrote:Yeah I would still compare it to a war zone. The tactics used were virtually exactly the same as would be used in a real war zone.
Really? Were bullets fired?

My brother called last week from western Iraq to tell me that they had just blown up an entire village (owned by non-jihadist smugglers who were profiteering off of regional instability and who had killed 14 Marines earlier this month...interesting story, by the way.)

The last time he wrote home, he'd had to tape a kid's eyeball to the kid's cheek after part of his face had been blown off.

Sorry about your rave.
What's your point Zaphod?

Well, let's see. Comparing a bust to a "war zone" is ludicrous and stinks of disinformation and propaganda, which makes me suspicious. Hope that clears it up.

Check this out. On the usenet forum or.politics, the SAME article has been posted..."Last night I was booked to play an event..." under the threat titled:
BUSH ASSAULTS YOUR FREEDOM

Apparently, Bush has something to do with Utah police busting up a rave.
'Course, the original poster said no such thing, but the story is being politicized for maximum effect.

Meanwhile, in Minnesota there's an actual case with actual trials of cops torturing and stomping the piss out of people in the street, jamming pens through people's eardrums, etc, requiring emergency medical treatment. I bet you the ravers in Utah know nothing about it.

-c

UTAH rave Busted by SWAT team...video included

UTAH rave Busted by SWAT team...video included

Re: UTAH rave Busted by SWAT team...video included

Re: UTAH rave Busted by SWAT team...video included