How to bust a Rave, American Style..

Omnidexter · Post by **Omnidexter** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:12 am

http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/82205utrave.cfm

Utah RAVE Raided by SWAT Team
Monday, August 22, 2005

The "war on drugs" took on a literal meaning this past weekend when
SWAT Team agents in full military combat regalia stormed a RAVE an
hour outside Salt Lake City, Utah. Covered in a recommended blog on
Daily Kos is a firsthand account detailing what transpired at the
event on Saturday, August 20, where military soldiers swooped on the
crowd of about 1,500 people in the Spanish Fork canyon. The event's
promoter claims to have attained all the necessary permits to host the
RAVE and even had an insurance policy of 2 million dollars.

Video http://fatbaron.com/fascism.wmv

Discussion thread http://www.utrave.org/showthread.php?t=20020

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:26 am

show me the permits.

Omnidexter · Post by **Omnidexter** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:30 am

they say they had them, including public liability insurance ($2m) & emergency first aid standing by.. the military concur with this apart from the permits part.

Apparently the permits were confiscated by military personal on the scene. (you'd think they'd have copies made)

who knows anyway, all we know is that the war on drugs has been escalated to a more general war on fun type of approch it seems.

r

MrGAJ5001 · Post by **MrGAJ5001** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:34 am

I'm with you, Joel. No amount of grousing after the fact can change bad planning.

Besides...a BLOG? Man, oh man...

Post by **AntiM** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:02 am

Per local Utah media coverage, they did not have all the right permits, they had health dept. permits but not a permit from the county commissioner. There are a number of agencies involved in the permitting process, county procedures are quite different from city requirements which differ from state needs. I'm not defending the LEOs in this case, but apparently the promoter dropped one of the balls he didn't even know he was supposed to be juggling.

Utah county has been waging a war on fun from day one in 1847.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:10 am

Already discussed.

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... highlight=

If you want to be pissed off at someone, go find the promoter.

Be responsible and stop fucking it up for the rest of us.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:19 am

AntiM wrote: Utah county has been waging a war on fun from day one in 1847.

I propose a contest! Design a county seal with that slogan (or a varient.)

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:27 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
AntiM wrote: Utah county has been waging a war on fun from day one in 1847.
I propose a contest! Design a county seal with that slogan (or a varient.)

Easy enough. A graphic of a large white sheet with a hole in it. Have the slogan printed on the sheet. Around the edges put the Latin translation of "And this is how, (top) you get fucked here. (bottom)"

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:29 am

The problem with being on the same board as you, my dear Wop, is that you can nail certain things so quickly and so economically as to make all my baroque fishyness look like jr high school girl doodles.

I bow to the master.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:59 am

According to an interview I heard with the landowner this morning, the event didn't need a county permit. The only time you need a county permit is if the event is 1: on public land. Or 2: both a) over 250 people, and b) scheduled to last more than 12 consecutive hours. Also, the reports of 60 arrests made in press releases from LE were lies. They only made 28 arrests, one of whom was the landowner, and twelve of whom were the security guards hired by Uprok (the promoting company). The guards were arrested for posession of the illegal drugs they confiscated from incoming attendees. Of course, they were arrested while trying to turn these things over to the police.

The event did have all the proper city and health dept permits, which are naturally still on record with the issuing authorities. there's going to be a very long legal battle over this one.

If they had just waited, they would have been able to legally bust the part a few hours later. Because in Utah County, it's illegal to dance after two AM.

AlcyoneTeam · Post by **AlcyoneTeam** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:06 am

[quote="DallasPlaya"]Already discussed.

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... highlight=

If you want to be pissed off at someone, go find the promoter.

Be responsible and stop fucking it up for the rest of us.[/quote]

Um, I agree to a certain extent. But SWAT teams? Ah, yes. Those bazooka-packing ravers.

Seriously, the police walk in there and treat everyone like criminals. Yes, they may not have had a permit to party (does anyone remember their Constitutional right to gather?), but that doesn't mean they can beat up people and confiscate video.

Does anyone know what groups (if any) are taking action, and how to show support?

Jordan 10-E · Post by **Jordan 10-E** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:27 am

I was at this event. It was my generator that ran the second stage. If you look at the film footage from the helicopter you can see my truck and generator. All the people involved are my friends and people I have known for years.

I do not have a great deal of time to go into what happened because I am getting ready for Burning Man but I can say that this is not merely a PERMIT issue. This is an issue about the fundamental freedoms to gather an be unmolested by law enforcement. If any of you had been there and seen the chaos the police casued (in their camo/riot gear/black masks/machine guns) you would be scared. If you wanted to know what it feels like to be in a war zone you should have been there. Most people that where arrested were attacked without provocation. I was almost one of them. When I asked to go back to my truck which was the opposite direction of the way the wanted people to go I unconciously put my had in my pocket. Before I knew it the nazi cop had grabbed my wrist and violently pulled my had out of my pocket. "What are getting in your pocket?!!!" I said nothing and backed up. Along with the two cops/thugs on the sides of him the formed a line and came right at me I backed up at least 10 to 15 steps. They were about ready to pounce. I was lucky. Many people were not so lucky for putting theirs hands in their pockets or some other horribly suspicious activity.

Before you suddenly judge the wrong way think if this is the way your country should be run. This is not a permit issue. The promoters got the permits. The one permit in question is a mass gathering permit of over 250. This was the EXCUSE to bring in the calvary. The fact is that they would NEVER grant such a permit in the first place (and they know this) so to say it was a permit issue is misleading. It is a CONTROL issue (in the worst sense possible).

I can honestly say I have attended more Utah raves than any other person (I guarantee it is true). I have long meant to write a book about raves and the law. I have seen countless abuses by law enforcement over the years, but I have never seen such a disqusting display of force in my life!

I don't have time to write more, but this is not just about drugs or permits or whatever, it is much more than that.

The cops have lied and distorted the issues revolving around the case (as they usually do). Part of the reason they did the raid was to create an impression in people's minds (parents, etc) is to BRAND electronic music events as bad, without any redeeming qualities at all. They obviously can't pull over every car onthe road or enter every person's house to find the drugs they are so desparately looking for so they create situations where they can bypass the usual restrictions on what they can and can't do so the can find them. All they have to do is show up and suddenly there is a situation in where they can search you...look suspicious, resistance of ANY sort, wrong place wrong time.

The fact is no one was there but who was there. Without video cameras the outside world would have believed every word the cops said on the news. See that's the thing. Cops can lie most of the time and get away with it. They are still distorting the "facts" to justify their tactics.

I don't have time to fight it all now because I am going to BM in two days, but I for one am not finshed here.

BTW, this is only ONE of the MANY MANY stories I have about law enforcement abuses over the years.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:54 am

Jordan 10-E wrote:When I asked to go back to my truck which was the opposite direction of the way the wanted people to go I unconciously put my had in my pocket. Before I knew it the nazi cop had grabbed my wrist and violently pulled my had out of my pocket. "What are getting in your pocket?!!!" I said nothing and backed up. Along with the two cops/thugs on the sides of him the formed a line and came right at me I backed up at least 10 to 15 steps. They were about ready to pounce. I was lucky. Many people were not so lucky for putting theirs hands in their pockets or some other horribly suspicious activity.

Hell yah as a cop I would have been worried. Regardless of how harmless you looked, or how 'inherently peaceful' ravers are- the cops have to prevent EXACTLY this type of activity.

They tell you to move in a specific direction.
You moved the opposite way and put your hand in your pocket.
When they asked you what was in your pocket, you said nothing and backed up further.

They can't assume you aren't pulling a gun, because if you did for whatever reason- they have to either disarm or kill you. Immediately- before you shoot and kill one of them or someone else in the crowd. They aren't Nazis for trying to prevent an escalation that would cause them to start firing live rounds at folks. Nazis would have rounded you all up, locked you all up, and maybe killed the lot of you.

The one thing I seen on the video that truely disturbed me was a policeman telling someone to turn off their video camera or they were going to jail. Other than that, it wasn't any worse than the cops breaking up the desert parties I used to go to. Course, we lived next to a Naval base- so they sometimes used MPs to break them up.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:25 am

AlcyoneTeam wrote:Um, I agree to a certain extent. But SWAT teams? Ah, yes. Those bazooka-packing ravers.

Seriously, the police walk in there and treat everyone like criminals. Yes, they may not have had a permit to party (does anyone remember their Constitutional right to gather?), but that doesn't mean they can beat up people and confiscate video.

Does anyone know what groups (if any) are taking action, and how to show support?

I also have a constitutional right to free speech and yet I can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

My point is that promoters like this obvious RETARD screws up the ability for us non-retards to have events. Or maybe he's not a retard -- I seriously doubt he'll be refunding anyone's ticket price and I'd bet money he's not going to pay the DJ's who didn't get to play. He might just be a genius (especially since he now has a pile of cash AND a bunch of people bitching about what he caused).

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:32 am

Jordan 10-E wrote:The one permit in question is a mass gathering permit of over 250. This was the EXCUSE to bring in the calvary. The fact is that they would NEVER grant such a permit in the first place (and they know this) so to say it was a permit issue is misleading. It is a CONTROL issue (in the worst sense possible).

So you had the event anyway. Brilliant.

Jordan 10-E · Post by **Jordan 10-E** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:57 am

Rob the Wop wrote:
Jordan 10-E wrote:When I asked to go back to my truck which was the opposite direction of the way the wanted people to go I unconciously put my had in my pocket. Before I knew it the nazi cop had grabbed my wrist and violently pulled my had out of my pocket. "What are getting in your pocket?!!!" I said nothing and backed up. Along with the two cops/thugs on the sides of him the formed a line and came right at me I backed up at least 10 to 15 steps. They were about ready to pounce. I was lucky. Many people were not so lucky for putting theirs hands in their pockets or some other horribly suspicious activity.
Hell yah as a cop I would have been worried. Regardless of how harmless you looked, or how 'inherently peaceful' ravers are- the cops have to prevent EXACTLY this type of activity.

They tell you to move in a specific direction.
You moved the opposite way and put your hand in your pocket.
When they asked you what was in your pocket, you said nothing and backed up further.

They can't assume you aren't pulling a gun, because if you did for whatever reason- they have to either disarm or kill you. Immediately- before you shoot and kill one of them or someone else in the crowd. They aren't Nazis for trying to prevent an escalation that would cause them to start firing live rounds at folks. Nazis would have rounded you all up, locked you all up, and maybe killed the lot of you.

The one thing I seen on the video that truely disturbed me was a policeman telling someone to turn off their video camera or they were going to jail. Other than that, it wasn't any worse than the cops breaking up the desert parties I used to go to. Course, we lived next to a Naval base- so they sometimes used MPs to break them up.

Well Rob I appreciate what you have said but really you don't know what you are talking about. But remembering the various posts you have made before, some of them between you and me, it is not surprising that you are still clueless about what is happening here. I am not going to waste my time giving you details. I have other things to do like packing for Burning Man.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:06 pm

Jordan 10-E wrote: it is not surprising that you are still clueless about what is happening here. I am not going to waste my time giving you details. I have other things to do like packing for Burning Man.

Wait a second, you make a movement like you were trying to get something in your pocket to an armed policeman during a raid- and I'm clueless?

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:07 pm

i say with the utmost confidence that this matter will be concluded in the courts.

onto the next task.

Jordan 10-E · Post by **Jordan 10-E** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:12 pm

Oh BTW, I knew about the Health Permit but they actually had two permits; the Health Permit and one called "Utah County Mass Gathering Permit" This is NOT an issue about promoters doing their job.

See you all at Burning Man.

Oh BTW, while you are all enjoying the liberty of Burning Man (which is a total anomally in the mass gathering realm) think about what it would be like if a police/military force came and busted up the party in the same ways that happened here. Sure, isolate yourself if you want and believe that you are somehow better than the people attending the evil "rave" that happened here. It's not like you all are saints! Fact is your person would be searched, your tent, your car, and if you for some reason looked the wrong way... well it would surely be over for you. Are you going to tell me you don't use drugs? That doesn't matter anyway because you probably would have been searched and arrested regardless.

Jordan 10-E · Post by **Jordan 10-E** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:17 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:
Jordan 10-E wrote: it is not surprising that you are still clueless about what is happening here. I am not going to waste my time giving you details. I have other things to do like packing for Burning Man.
Wait a second, you make a movement like you were trying to get something in your pocket to an armed policeman during a raid- and I'm clueless?

Yeah you are clueless! When I put my had in my pocket (gee I should have been thinking) and he grabbed me I suddenly remembered something I read somewhere (I think it was a post on a Burning Man board about what to do when confronted by the cops) about not putting your hands in your pocket. So yes, Rob the Clueless I should have been diligently remembering all the things not to do when confronted with machine gun toting thugs.

And for your info I was in the RIGHT. You don't know the details and and are only making assumptions. If I had them time I could show you what an ass you are being, but that is pointless.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:25 pm

Jordan 10-E wrote:When I put my had in my pocket (gee I should have been thinking) and he grabbed me I suddenly remembered something I read somewhere (I think it was a post on a Burning Man board about what to do when confronted by the cops) about not putting your hands in your pocket.

So you're saying that common sense is not your forte? Do you understand what a 'concealed weapon' is?

A cop that lets this slide too many times is a dead cop.

swampdog · Post by **swampdog** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:34 pm

I think this is horrible on many counts.

1. This could have been handled much more gracefully by trying to prevent the party. Communications could have been made "We know this is happening, it is not permitted, if you go you will be subject to arrest". It seems likely to me that they wanted to do the paramilitary exercise to bust and scare people.

2. Several accounts refer to attempts to record the actions of the police/guard using video, still cameras, picture phones being shut down. This is clearly a violation of the first amendment. The first tool of fascism is to control the flow of information.

3. Excessive use of force cited by many attendees. You can quibble about what any individual encountered, what some weekend warrior or cop did in the heat of the moment when they thought someone was going for a gun (and I usually tend to side with the cops on this) but this overwhelming pattern suggests that the assault team was primed and ready to kick ass and not make any attempt to deal in any but the harshest terms. They created a mass of panicky kids, then assaulted them for behaving out of fear.

3. The site listed above includes this quote, allegedly from the police press report:

... by 10 pm Major Crimes observed numerous illegal activities. Which included illegal use of drugs, distribution of drugs, and underage consumption of alcohol. It was verified that more than 250 individuals were at the party, in violation or county statutes and by 11:30 pm law enforcement personnel moved in to curtail and disburse the party. During this process at least 60 arrests were made for weapons offenses, DUI, illegal underage consumption of alcohol, possession of marijuana, possession of cocaine, possession of methamphetamine, distribution of ecstasy, resisting arrest, assault on a police officer, and disorderly conduct. A safety sweep was conducted after the crowd was ordered to disburse and numerous narcotic items were located scattered on the ground which included: cocaine, ecstasy, marijuana, mushrooms, alcohol and large amounts of drug paraphernalia.

(from http://www.utrave.org/showthread.php?t=20020

Burning Man LLC is very thorough and careful about getting the appropriate permits. But if "observ[ing] numerous illegal activities. Which included illegal use of drugs, distribution of drugs, and underage consumption of alcohol." is enough probable cause to call out the military in full battle dress, well, guess what, we're still vulnerable.

I'm a little distressed by this "the promoter was an idiot, it could never happen to us." Maybe the promoter was an idiot (I don't have enough evidence to judge either way) but there is no excuse whatsoever for a paramilitary strike on a civilian party, and it certainly could happen to us.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:45 pm

the event was permitted. So, for all of you who are using this as your touchstone for labelling these folks as idiots, please find another convenient way to rationalize unconstitutional uses of force.

Rob, I get what you are saying about the cops. I think if I were in their position and jordan put his hands in his pockets I would be pretty uneasy as well. I understand the rationalization. Still, put yourself in Jordan's postion. I, for one, know that if in the middle of the night a helicopter appeared out of nowhere and a masked and heavily armed force of folks came in and started screaming orders and tossing folks to the ground I would have a hard time remembering things like 'don't put your hands in your pockets.' and 'don't walk toward your vehicle.' It strikes me that both of these actions are very defensive in a situation where your lizard brain is screaming at you to be very defensive. Hands in pockets is protectionist body language. I don't think you can label Jordan or anyone else an idiot for being scared to death and physically reacting accordingly. It is somewhat hypocritical to take that position and at the same time explain why the cops were in their right mind to behave as they did.

This is all, however, a diversion. Much like the bogus info the cops fed the news media. At the end of the day what we have is folks gathered on private property, allegedly with permits, to listen to music and dance the night away. What the fuck is wrong with that? It fucking happens in my house frequently.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:03 pm

stuart wrote: I think if I were in their position and jordan put his hands in his pockets I would be pretty uneasy as well. I understand the rationalization. Still, put yourself in Jordan's postion.

Actually, I didn't start calling him an idiot until he started in on his little 'clueless' rant.

My whole deal is not to 'give rationalizations'. The raid itself may have been bogus or politcally motivated, but their actions once they hit the ground are part of training. When in riot gear type situation, they are trained to act in a certain manner. Go in quick, assert control, attack and disarm anyone with a weapon immediately, herd folks so that they cannot be flanked, etc. A big part of any officer's training is prevent an action that will get people killed.

This training is the result of decades worth of riot control knowledge. Pretty much all of it evolved from things going wrong at some time or another. To call a cop a Nazi for restraining the hand of someone putting it in their pocket is absurd. I'm just trying to point out that a lot of what they did was proceedural, not personal.

I'll leave whether the raid was legal or illegal up to y'alls.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:12 pm

Jordan 10-E wrote:. So yes, Rob the Clueless I should have been diligently remembering all the things not to do when confronted with machine gun toting thugs.

Do you know what a machine gun IS?

Seriously, man. Lay off the rhetoric and clueful people will be more inclined to believe you. All this talk of machine guns is just going to get the Apokiliptika people tossing off.

State the facts. They should suffice. (A machine gun, for example, is in nearly all cases a heavy, belt-fed, semi-fixed weapon like an M60 or a .50-cal M2.)

-c

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:18 pm

stuart wrote:the event was permitted. So, for all of you who are using this as your touchstone for labelling these folks as idiots, please find another convenient way to rationalize unconstitutional uses of force.

We're arguing two different points here.

1. If it was permitted, why did it get busted?

2. Yes, police brutality = bad.

Regarding the former, if you have an event and it's not put together right, it can lead to chaos. If the event had NOT been busted and a riot broke out and people were killed (***FOR EXAMPLE ONLY, DO NOT READ LITERALLY***), it would be the parents bitching at the police as to why it wasn't busted.

Regarding the latter, yes, we know. Gotcha.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:39 pm

stuart wrote:At the end of the day what we have is folks gathered on private property, allegedly with permits, to listen to music and dance the night away. What the fuck is wrong with that? It fucking happens in my house frequently.

charging 20 bucks at the gate is where it goes from a simple party among friends to a money making opportunity (commerce) and in this case... illegal commerce and activities. IMHO, if you pay money to get in, it is no longer a party, it is a business transaction.

if someone were so kind as to have physical proof of the alleged permit, i might be so kind as to retract my comments about stupidity and idiocy... until then my comments stand.

and ZaphodB, you are correct, the officers were armed with assault rifles from what i could determine from the video, not machine guns.

and since one weapon was confiscated from somone, it would appear to me that arriving with weapons drawn was justified.

but, hey what do i know, in 48 years, i haven't been arrested for such behavior... or for any criminal behavor for that matter.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:01 pm

joel the ornery wrote: charging 20 bucks at the gate is where it goes from a simple party among friends to a money making opportunity (commerce) and in this case... illegal commerce and activities. IMHO, if you pay money to get in, it is no longer a party, it is a business transaction.

Yep. And if it wasn't a commercial activity, there likely wouldn't have been a promoter at all.

Interesting about the security guards being busted. Would like to see how that plays out, but here's what I know. Played a sold-out show in a coop venue in Eugene once--door security confiscated all kinds of things--and at the end of the night after the crowd had left, all that confiscated pot became one great smoke cloud at the staff after-hours party. I damned near felt bad.

-c
They were burning it to dispose of it. *cough*

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 pm

destroying the crop, one bud at a time.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:52 pm

charging 20 bucks at the gate is where it goes from a simple party among friends to a money making opportunity (commerce) and in this case... illegal commerce and activities. IMHO, if you pay money to get in, it is no longer a party, it is a business transaction.

Joel, since you are very interested in propping up authority and the letter of the law let me help you to be a bit more consistent.

Nowhere does it say that 20 bucks was charged at the gate. More than likely is that absolutely no money changed hands at the event for entry. By the letter of the law it makes the event private and non-commercial. Also, not illegal.

until then my comments stand.

so, what you are saying is that you are taking sides when one party is alleging a permit and the other is alleging no permit. The latter party already having had some of their initial allegations to the press shown to be false and having shown a desire to suppress the free flow of information regarding the bust.

How to bust a Rave, American Style..

How to bust a Rave, American Style..

I was there.

Re: I was there.

Re: I was there.

Re: I was there.

Re: I was there.

Re: I was there.

Re: I was there.

Re: I was there.