How to bust a Rave, American Style..

[ZaphodBurner]

Nowhere does it say that 20 bucks was charged at the gate. More than likely is that absolutely no money changed hands at the event for entry. By the letter of the law it makes the event private and non-commercial.

I would like to know more about this and will suspend my opinion on the matter, but my -thought- is, if there was no money and it was a private event, then why was there a "promoter", and who paid for the security, insurance policy, etc? BTW, for which company did the security work? (I've done freelance security at public events. Patently stupid idea.)

Also note that the factual combination of minors and drugs pretty much legitimizes a raid. If they had raided the place, kicked the shit out of some teenagers and found NOTHING, that would raise a lot more eyebrows.

In Oregon, if drugs change possession on a private property, the police can seize the property and auction it off. This happened to a woman near my high school who had no idea her grandson was selling pot to his friends in the garage. Her ignorance cost her her house. I truly hope the property owner has a competent lawyer.

Best of luck to all involved.
-c

[theCryptofishist]

In Oregon, if drugs change possession on a private property, the police can seize the property and auction it off. This happened to a woman near my high school who had no idea her grandson was selling pot to his friends in the garage. Her ignorance cost her her house.

This may be Federal not just Oregon. I remember in the 80s when those sorts of laws came onto the books as part of the war on drugs and someone's boat getting confiscated (I think it was a fishing/work boat not a pleasure yacht) for some trace amount of dope found in a sailors locker. I also remember a case going to the supreme court (Clinton Era) of man in wife's car soliciting prostitution and losing the car.

Crap.

[ZaphodBurner]

This may be Federal not just Oregon. I remember in the 80s when those sorts of laws came onto the books as part of the war on drugs and someone's boat getting confiscated (I think it was a fishing/work boat not a pleasure yacht) for some trace amount of dope found in a sailors locker.

The Feds will seize a boat in a heartbeat. Here in Portland, artists like Po have played concerts on large commercial yachts on the river. A few years ago at a Floater fan was found with pot by a member of the boat crew and the boat actually stopped at a dock to kick the guy off.

Because if it, the band has been booted from the boat forever. The simple truth is that they could have lost a multi-million dollar yacht over a single loaded bowl.

The War on Some Drugs is a real pain in the ass that way.
-c

[theCryptofishist]

ayup. and i'm not an enemy combatant in that one...

[b00m3rang]

I would like to know more about this and will suspend my opinion on the matter, but my -thought- is, if there was no money and it was a private event, then why was there a "promoter", and who paid for the security, insurance policy, etc?

If you sell tickets at the map point, no money is exchanged at the event. I've heard of a promotion group in San Francisco that issued plastic membership cards, which allowed you in to their event. No money was required to get in the party, but you had to have a membership card (which you pay for).

[joel the ornery]

stuart,

i have thought better of my words, and i think no response is a sufficient response.

sincerely,

joel, the ornery hide in plain sight and don't get caught kind of guy.

[stuart]

yes, a map point, no money exchanged at the door. Letter of the law and all that cooky stuff.

[Jordan 10-E]

Machine guns...assault rifles...whatever. They appeared to be M-16's or maybe an AR-15. I don't know if it was an automatic or semi automatic. I didn't ask for a demostration. Next time I will be sure to let you know.

The point I was making about putting my hand in my pocket was this...

They said there were 60 or so arrests. How many were for drugs and how many for other things? Well the vast majority of those were for "Resisting Arrest" or "Failure to Obey a Police Officer" etc... I would argue that virtually every one of those arrests was based on outright illegal siezure or were shaky at best. No one was resisting to justify any take downs or whatever. (I know of one example of a girl I know that tried to pull the 5 or so police offices on one of our gilr friends that had been thrown to the ground, kicked, beaten. She did absolutely nothing to deserve it.) The cops created the nightmare scenerio not the attendees. Initially, all anyone knew was that 60 people got arrested and that was reported on the news as if all were for drug possesion or something, which most of them were not. It is just another example of the overinflation and misleading statements the police make. If you looked wrong at a police officer from 30-50 away they would come at you.

They were like a bunch of feral dogs. Procedure, ha. Their military tactics were not necessary. That's the whole point! They had a bunch of gear and tactics they weren't using (like their helicopter and patty wagons and face masks and riot gear and going around without a displayed badge and ASSUALT RIFLES) because I guess they don't need to too often use them here in Utah. Hey, let's try them out on some ravers. No one will punish us for that.

If a couple cops came and said the party was over people would have left. There wasn't a need to bring out the whole army. They did that to create a scenerio where they would supposedly be justified to search people and find whatever it was they were carrying. Too bad they don't stop every car on every road or at every club or school or people just walking down the street or at rock concerts. Why don't they? Because we supposedly have laws that are in the foundation of our country's constitution that protect us from such unlawful search and siezure. If they did target those other groups they would find just as many pipes and drugs. Instead a whole community of music listeners are targeted solely. It doesn't matter what you find after the fact. It's how you go about things in the first place.

[JezebelinHell]

I'm horribly torn between being outraged at the police state in this country, and being hopelessly amused by the thought of a bunch of e'd out kids in fuzzy pants with tickle me elmo dolls being beaten up by a SWAT team. Yes, I'm an insensitive prick, so there's no need to post a response pointing out the obvious to me. I'm gonna be humming the theme song from SWAT every time I walk past an electronic music event now though.

[b00m3rang]

As funny as that image is, I have to wonder what kind of trauma would cause a person to think, "That kid is dressed up like some kind of fuzzy doll, we'd better protect society from him. He's eating something that makes him feel good, kick him in the ribs!"

[Driveway]

Dude...it's the right to "pursue" happiness. No one actually gets to BE happy. How the hell else are we going to sell all this freakin' Zoloft?

[b00m3rang]

I'm not talking about rights, I'm talking about motives. But we DO have the right to gather peacefully. I just don't understand why some people are so opposed to letting OTHER PEOPLE listen to certain kinds of music (just like I can't bring myself to care what anyone else does in their bedroom.). That's all it is. They can throw a reggae/hip hop event called the Smoke Out, where thousands of people get stoned right in front of the cops, but when electronic dance music is involved, send in the cavalry.

They say, "You should have got a permit", but they won't issue any permits. Not even the big, reputable promoters can get permits to throw parties in the desert, at least in CA. Or they'll pull some BS like revoking the permit a few days before the event, after the promoter spends hundreds of thousands of dollars and goes through ALL the hoops required (Dune).

It's just unamerican.

[Elemental666]

Cops raiding a large counter cultural gathering of young men and women with undo force and questionable tactics, hell that's 80% of the American history book buddy. You can start with the American indians and progress right through the Civil Rights movement then to the hippies and yuppies and disco movement. Its not unamerican, IT IS AMERICA!!!!!

Hell the founding fathers ran away from Britan to avoid such persecution and then turned around and set the groundwork and example for 200 years of repeated offenses. Here's the trick of it tho. To be successfull you have to fight it, speek out about it, document it, litigate it and ratify it. Oh and calling the rave a scene a musical movement isn't going to hold water, your oversimplifying it and everyone knows it. Most counter cultures can be identified by the prevelant substances they abused. AND YES THAT MATTERS! The choice of drug for the counter culture has a direct impact on the moors and values of that culture. To deny this is to deny the movement. That said not EVERY counter culture is drug related, for example the Civil Rights movement wasn't centered around drugs, but I digress. Everyone whose ever talked about a rave knows that the drugs and the music are bed fellows.

Pointing to the Rastas and Ganja is a bit skewed as Ganja has a RELIGIOUS impact with the Rastas, as does peyote and some native americans. They back this claim up with decades if not centuries of ritual involving these substances. The first amendment wil trump the drug charge in certain cases like these. This doesn't help you and your raver friends tho.

[Driveway]

I doubt very much that no money was changing hands at the gate. The days of the completely pre-ticketed rave died with the waning of the last millenium and a TIME cover story.

Did the police and county officials overreact to the situation? Yes, obviously. There are bigger problems than drugs, and way, way, way bigger problems than kids dancing all night to music while meeting new people.

Was Jordan an idiot for doing anything to draw police attention to him? Yes, obviously. It's not hard to remember to keep your hands visible to a man wearing body armour.

Is the promoter an idiot/genius? Well, the jury's still out on that, and as Joel with his fuzzy primate wisdom pointed out, it will be decided in the courts.

Would the rave have sucked anyways? Yes, obviously. No one in Utah is cool.

[JezebelinHell]

It's not the craziest thing a SWAT team's ever done

[joel the ornery]

1993

Images above brought to you by the the Justice Adminstration under President Clinton's authority.

[AntiM]

Would the rave have sucked anyways? Yes, obviously. No one in Utah is cool.

Hey wow, you KNOW me!

[Kinetic IV]

Wow, we have the king of coolness on board! Who knew?

[AntiM]

At least the organizers have a lawyer now, and a damned good one too.

http://kutv.com/local/local_story_235151602.html

[Kinetic IV]

At least the organizers have a lawyer now, and a damned good one too.

http://kutv.com/local/local_story_235151602.html

And I hope he racks their asses. Excessive force doesn't require the victims to show up being bruised or bleeding. And what I saw on that tape was clearly excessive.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

In Oregon, if drugs change possession on a private property, the police can seize the property and auction it off. This happened to a woman near my high school who had no idea her grandson was selling pot to his friends in the garage. Her ignorance cost her her house. I truly hope the property owner has a competent lawyer.

Do you think that someday this will happen to Burningman! But if there is no exchange of Money do they have grounds to stand on?

AIIZ

[theCryptofishist]

[quote="Apollonaris Zeus
Do you think that someday this will happen to Burningman! But if there is no exchange of Money do they have grounds to stand on?

AIIZ[/quote]Maybe they'll arrest the cafe and Antartica...

[ZaphodBurner]

No one was resisting to justify any take downs or whatever. (I know of one example of a girl I know that tried to pull the 5 or so police offices on one of our gilr friends

By interfering with the police officers she committed a potential felony and could have been charged with assaulting a police officer, among many other things.

It's not within a teenage girls' authority to determine whether the police are doing the right thing, and then to try to "pull them off." Heroic, but illegal and stupid.

I know it happens; I've seen rural police brutality with my own eyes. (The group I was with identified and tracked undercover timber operatives at environmental protests.) Unfortunately I've also seen a jaw-dropping amount of STUPID behavior by the people with whom the police were in conflict, and then sat back and watched the stories weave themselves out on forums like this.

I'm not saying that I think the police acted properly or in a justified manner, but, as always, the more people talk about the incident, the more I start to wonder about what was -really- happening. What it boils down to is:

--
There were riot police with a helicopter and assault weapons, and there were kids. Unless the kids were acting violently, there's a problem right there; a misfired assault rifle could have killed unarmed children who had commited no crime. The person who tried to videotape the scene was told he'd be arrested if he didn't stop.

The permit issue has to do with the promoter, the land, etc. That doesn't justify the presence of assault weapons among a startled, frightened but otherwise peaceful gathering of minors.
--

-c

[Apollonaris Zeus]

[/quote]Maybe they'll arrest the cafe and Antartica...[/quote]

Gee and I thought the ICE they were serving was only H2O.

No wonder why so many people were repeats!

AIIZ

PS- if your at a party on public property get rid of your stuff quick. Take it out of the bag (finger prints) and dump it then walk away. This has happen to several parties on public property and they couldn't charge anyone.

On another note, when you buy your stuff be aware that you finger prints will be on everybag you check out and you can implicated for distribution. A friend of mine was convicted just for that.

ON Utah: What is the state Motto-

















The Behave State!

PSS- please note I'm the originator of that phrase and it is trademark!!!!

[ZaphodBurner]

In Oregon, if drugs change possession on a private property, the police can seize the property and auction it off. This happened to a woman near my high school who had no idea her grandson was selling pot to his friends in the garage. Her ignorance cost her her house. I truly hope the property owner has a competent lawyer.

Do you think that someday this will happen to Burningman! But if there is no exchange of Money do they have grounds to stand on?

AIIZ

No. They can't seize land from the BLM. If you take a ride on an airplane out of BRC and get caught with a pipe, though, the owner could lose the airplane.

BTW, America did not die in January of 2001. If it did, it also died when Abraham Lincoln suspended habeus corpus and imprisoned 3,000 war opponents (democrats) and shut down newspapers carrying anti-war editorials. It died when the first slave was chained in the hold of a ship bound for America, which was before America was born.

It died when police raided speakeasies and previously-legal drinking establishments during prohibition. It died when it failed to investigate church burnings, lynchings, or genocide by its own forces against native American tribes. It died when Sherman burned Atlanta.

It died when men were drafted to fight wars that meant nothing to them. America, as people seem to think it was, was never born.

[Kinetic IV]

The only thing that will kill America is America itself. (Or about 100 CSS-7's launched in anger over Taiwan).

[Driveway]

Now Kinetic, we both know that Fonzie was the King of Cool and that none shall live who surpass Him.

It's events like this rave bust that make me so very glad that I don't live in the States, which is a shame.

The Constitution is, hands down, one of the single greatest acheivements of humanity. The enshrining in law of the basic principals that all people are equals and that all people have basic rights of which they may not be stripped by a government is simply incredible.

When you think that this document was created at a time when the vast, vast majority of "civilized" people were still beholden to Kings who ruled by Divine Right makes it makes it even more awe-inspiring.

It is deeply saddening that time and the weight of trillions upon trillions of dollars are crushing the ideals of young America. Perhaps the burden of Manifest Destiny is simply to much for even three hundred million people to bear.

Though, perhaps not. Thirty five plus thousand of us, Americans and visitiors alike, are about to gather in the desert, be equals, celebrate ourselves, art, each other, and eat dust.

America did rebuild Japan and West Germany, everyone can vote [if they can make it to a polling station], and everyone gets a court-appointed lawyer if needed.

Pedulums swing.

Push you beautiful Burners, ravers, hippies, commies, liberals, homosexuals, blacks, hispanics, and children. PUSH!

[stuart]

The days of the completely pre-ticketed rave died with the waning of the last millenium

wow, I must have been using a time machine a few months ago.

[theCryptofishist]

The days of the completely pre-ticketed rave died with the waning of the last millenium

wow, I must have been using a time machine a few months ago.

Hey that was my time machine! I want it back. And it better not be dented.

[Rob the Wop]

The only thing that will kill America is America itself. (Or about 100 CSS-7's launched in anger over Taiwan).

I'm thinking child-proof medicine bottles. Yup, pretty sure on this one. Child-proof medicine bottles.