Discovery Channel at BM 2005

fetching · Post by **fetching** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:02 am

bye chai, have a safe trip. see you friday!

nignog · Post by **nignog** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:09 am

BM 2006 borught to you by Miller Light, "when you feel the burn, grap a light"

It a LLC that is Corporation, it's profit, money and advertizing.

I'm done, it has been taken from the people. NEXT!

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:26 am

nignog wrote:BM 2006 borught to you by Miller Light, "when you feel the burn, grap a light"
It a LLC that is Corporation, it's profit, money and advertizing.
I'm done, it has been taken from the people. NEXT!

So start your own event.

Hurry up, wouldja? 30,000 people are waiting for you to front the cash and take responsibility for everything so they can have a good time while they criticize you for adapting to real-world issues.

The thing is, I came home from BM04 and listened to my coworker gripe that she always wanted to go, but not now that it had become commercialized. Essentially, somebody's clueless propaganda (and her own lack of research) convinced a friend who might have had a life-changing experience not to go, based on pure bullshit.

Burning Man is not sponsored by Miller Light, nor will it be next year. It would be tragic, althought not necessarily surprising, to see a Burner succumb to his own sarcastic rhetoric.

-c

b00m3rang · Post by **b00m3rang** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:40 am

I had mixed feelings about the issue before, but if it keeps nignog's sandy pussy away from the event, it can't be all bad.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:52 am

vile but funny b00m.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:20 am

"For the privilege of being allowed to film, The Discovery Times
Channel will be paying Burning Man LLC an as yet undisclosed fee."

I would much rather have, "Girls Gone Wild" then the Discovery Channel as long as they paid too and secured model releases and if the Bmorg is going to whore out the event!

At least, That would keep more tourists away and attract more Wild Women of course most of you guys and gals wouldn't want that- Right?

AIIZ

nignog · Post by **nignog** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:23 pm

Sad Pussy? I expected much more than that.
Don't worry I will not burn this year.

As far as starting my own event, that's the problem, the free exchange of art, emotion and life is next to impossiable in today's culture. BM is an example of the "what's going on over there?" culture in the United States. Once THEY saw what was going on out on the playa, THEY said, let use this for our gain, and let make some money off this thing.

I'm not mad at BM INC, , it's just not my thing now, it's yours, so enjoy.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:29 pm

And yet you come here to taunt us. Perhaps not as over it as you'd like to think...

b00m3rang · Post by **b00m3rang** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:37 pm

nignog wrote:Sad Pussy? I expected much more than that.

Not sad pussy, I was implying that you have sand in your vagina, which is making you cranky... as evidenced by the fact that you only come here to post negativity. I don't know why you'd expect more, it's not like I have a personal vendetta or anything, I've just noticed a distinct pattern in your posts.

nignog · Post by **nignog** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:37 pm

I will always be a burner, it is part of my history, with many good memories. I just think it is sad that BM has moved this direction.

Old School vs. New "Burners" you are kidding if you can admit there is a diff? Grass Roots vs. INC$$$

Enjoy your event.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:41 pm

apres toi, le deluge

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:50 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote: I would much rather have, "Girls Gone Wild" then the Discovery Channel as long as they paid too and secured model releases and if the Bmorg is going to whore out the event!
AIIZ

I guess if you're into the commercial exploitation of intoxicated, clueless minors.

If it happens in public, they don't technically need model release. Flash your tits on Bourbon Street and try suing somebody for putting it on their website.

But I think this whole thing is rhetorical nonsense. For the privelege of being allowed to participate, YOU will be paying Burning Man LLC an undisclosed fee, unless you choose to tell us how much you paid for your ticket.

-c

b00m3rang · Post by **b00m3rang** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:06 pm

Getting back on track though, I'm quite ambivalent about this at the moment. I just watched one of the BM documentary DVDs (I forget which) with Larry talking about how people are shocked that the event was able to grow as it has without any corporate sponsorship. Receiving a presumably large sum of money from the Discovery channel to allow them to make a commercial TV show smacks of corporate sponsorship.

I don't really have a problem with small time documentary crews, Weird Wheels, or the 6 o'clock news showing clips, so I think it'd be hypocricial to fault the Discovery Channel for doing the same thing with this show. On the other hand, isn't Burning Man about removing class structure? Leveling the playing field? Are they charging and treating the Discovery Channel differently than any other film crew? If so, why? As long as they follow the rule of asking before videotaping people, what's the difference?

I'd feel better if we were at least assured that the revenue would go direcly into art grants for next year, or something similar.

Has anyone heard from any officials about this matter? It's a nontrivial issue.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:10 pm

b00m3rang wrote:It's a nontrivial issue.

Agreed.

nignog · Post by **nignog** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:22 pm

As far as a reasonable response, I feel that there should be no professional exploitation of BM on film. Artistic documentary is typically our own consumption and not for commercial broadcast. I have some film from past years that I would never allow out of my burner circle.

What is the point of going to the playa if film crews are there, why hold it in some stadium? I’ll tell you why, it because BM is a noncommercial community of free spirits. Not an event to be seen on TV. Do they want to advertise? Do we really want to turn this into a frat party?

BM Inc. has the taste of money in their mouth and it as changed them. If not then why even think of allowing Discovery Channel on site? Is BM to be seen or to be experienced?

Again, enjoy your event, I’m out. The reason I post and keep in touch is the feeling of loss I have for BM.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:00 pm

nignog wrote:The reason I post and keep in touch is the feeling of loss I have for BM.

Well, judging by your tone it's sour grapes. I have no trouble with people outgrowing the event and parting ways, but I'm a little sick of those who cop the attitude "Well now that I'm done the whole thing's useless." Is this your attitude? It's hard to tell w/out tone of voice, but you haven't to my recall put in clues that might indicate a warmth towards those still attending as opposed to condensation. IMHO>

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:16 pm

nignog wrote:Sad Pussy? I expected much more than that.
Don't worry I will not burn this year.

As far as starting my own event, that's the problem, the free exchange of art, emotion and life is next to impossiable in today's culture.

Clearly it isn't, because BM did it for 19 years, more or less.

All you have to do is declare a space that fosters "free exchange of art, emotion and life," (and deal with the rumormongering hacks trying to discredit what you're doing, and the lawyers of everybody who gets hurt or loses money on it)

By the way, what art have you contributed to Burning Man? I mean, my group has spent thousands of dollars and all summer on this, we're not getting paid for it, but we're part of everybody's experience. To hear somebody come in here and say it's all about "INC$$$" is rather offensive.

As critics like to say, it's not about BMLLC. It's about everybody who goes. We're not taking money, and there's 36,000 of us. Who are YOU and what have you done to contribute to our experience, besides compain on the e-playa?

-c
("Burning Man was better last yea....wh...HELP!...NO...not the duct tape...ple...mmmffphhh")

b00m3rang · Post by **b00m3rang** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:49 pm

I've also heard Larry say that they're not trying to hide form anyone, either. Everyone who films at the event is supposed to get the permission of the filmed, as long as they follow the rules, what's the difference between a DVD sold to the general public (though targeted at burners), and a show on TV?

I agree that it's not about watching it on TV, it's about coming out and participating. That's what comes across in every video I've seen on the event. I'd have a problem if they setup 24/7 live video feeds, but they're really just reporting on the event. How is that any different than a magazine article? I wouldn't have found out about the event as early as I did if I hadn't read about it in High Times.

It's not a casual thing to drag your ass out into the desert, if people see the video and are sufficiently motivated to do what they need to do to get there and participate, all the better.

If the only incarnation of the event that you're willing to accept is one which shuns newcomers and fosters elitism, than maybe this event isn't for you. I just don't understand why someone would sit around a forum of those who still do enjoy the event and only spout negatives. How about some solutions? How about, "This is what's wrong with the event, and here's my idea on how to fix it." After all, your experience is dependant only on your actions. Noone else is going to fix it for you.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:40 am

b00m3rang wrote: I agree that it's not about watching it on TV, it's about coming out and participating.

Agreed. You can watch the spectacle from the safety of your home all you want, but that's kinda like looking at the image galleries; "IT" can't be found there. They might capture the art, but not the countless human interactions going on.

You always hear Burners talking about how the BM culture and ethic will grow worldwide, will influence the way people value things, etc...

How is that gonna happen when the only place you see BM is the fundamentalist rant sites, High Times, or in a South Park or Reno 911 episode? The Discovery Channel is among the least likely to come to Burning Man and then portray it as some sort of drug-induced sex party or rave.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:19 pm

"On the other hand, isn't Burning Man about removing class structure?"

Yeah, that's why my Motorhome is bigger then yours. As you can see the event is not about class at all.

"By the way, what art have you contributed to Burning Man? I mean, my group has spent thousands of dollars and all summer on this, we're not getting paid for it, but we're part of everybody's experience. To hear somebody come in here and say it's all about "INC$$$" is rather offensive."

If the Bmorg is getting money from the discovery chnnl, then you should too.

"I guess if you're into the commercial exploitation of intoxicated, clueless minors."

Now your talking!

Now the real shit!

I don't know that Burning Man LSD really knows how they want the event to be portrayed.

Class-less that's bullshit. Not when your fearless leader beds down in a Mobile Home and many are sleeping in their cars, under the man or in a tent. Now it costs $210 per person to run the event of course they aren't telling you about the hidden costs of overhead that the trailer, a ranch a system of offices everywhere. I could hire an accountant and find alot cost cutting areas.

Is it a "Boys and Girls Gone Wild" event to many. yes, I would say that the majority of people going to burning is about the party and the art is just a showcase. I would throw out 90% of the crap that some call art and just spend most of my time a place once called Bianca's- where the real art was the people!

Is it a hedonistic event that just happens to have art. Wasn't the first event based on a beach just that? Yep it was. It had nothing to do about art, but a few artists brought some art and yes some of it was burnt.

So look at it this way.

Without the art would Burning Man still exist?

Yes!

Without the party would burning man still exist?

No!

If you can get donald Trump (a billionaire) to turn into a TV whore,
you can get Larry and the Bmorg to be one too.

So what is next. Why its the Burning Man Reality Show. Worth billions.
And guess who survives?

It won't be the Man- he will get burnt.

Either allow anyone that pays beyond an entrance ticket to do it- don't forget to include the residuals and royalties in the contract. Or allow anyone that pays for tickets and gets model releases to exploit it.

And as far a the Discovery Chnnl, I'm sure they will make a nice fuzzy and warm event without the Penises and Pussys, Gays and Lesbians, Nudes and anything that won't make a moral issue out of the show and thousands of tourons will show up with aunt bessie and little jessica and roy.

But, I will and I hope that you do too, shove my balls and ass into the camera and say, I want to fuck GW Bush in the Ass America!!!!

AIIZ

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:03 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:I would throw out 90% of the crap that some call art and just spend most of my time a place once called Bianca's- where the real art was the people!

So start your own Bianca's in the desert, bankroll the whole thing yourself, and you only need 10% of the art. You can throw out anybody whose crap doesn't meet your defination of "art", let them all in for free, and you're all set.

-c
"Hi. My name is Hip E. Burner. I don't beleive Burning Man should be about capitalism or commercialism. I mean, I just spent $400 on drugs, $200 on elwire and cyalume sticks, $500 on a Honda generator, packed six cases of Coors and a bottle of Jack Daniel's into my Coleman, 20 gallons of Evian, a bottle of Vitamin E from Nature's, a really kickass pair of Doc Martins and bought $150 of groceries and $50 of Energizer batteries from Costco plus a tent from Target and stakes, PVC and Weyerhauser plywood from Home Depot, loaded everything into my Chevrolet and spent $400 at Shell and Chevron driving down taxpayer-funded roads. The BORG tricked a cable network into paying a shitload of money to get in while every other video crew gets in for the cost of their tickets? Fuck the Capitalist Regime! Not Everything Is For Sale! No Blood for Oil!"

swampdog · Post by **swampdog** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:41 pm

Here's my heretical take on this.

I'm a second year burner, not attached to any big projects or major art. I'm contributing in my own ways, and having lots of fun making EL wire blinky stuff to wear around.

If I see my blinkies on Discovery channel I will be telling everyone I know to watch the show. If I see my naked pixillated ass on Disco Channel I will be talling ALMOST everyone I know to watch the show (sorry, Mom, I may forget to mention it to you). Maybe I'm just a media-whore-wannabe, but there it is.

Disco Channel does a pretty responsible job of representing different slices of life reasonably - their new series Going Tribal is an example.

If this show helps friends who think I'm kinda wacko for going understand the event, all the better. If it makes those friends think I'm even more wacko, well that's fine too.

Malcolm in the Middle is planning a show themed on Burning Man to open their new season this year. As far as I know they are doing using no actual film from the event and the LLC is receiving no money for it. Is that better? worse?

At least one (haven't checked others) major art project for this year has a page for sponsors on their website. Is that a sell-out? Commercialism?

Lots of events sponsor themselves with off-playa fundraising parties that are as commercial as all get-out. Commercialism?

And, as ZaphodBurner points out, a tremendous amount of commercial activity supports our little one-week oasis.

I trust the Org to use any funds coming in to improve the event. I really don't think Larry is getting rich off of the event, and wouldn't begrudge him if he were (up to a point).

I agree decommodification is a delicate thing, and surrounded by slippery slopes. We have to choose our battles carefully, and I don't think this is one we need to fight, or can fight, for that matter. The deal is done.

My bigger concern is with the possible impact on growth of the event. I think it's great if people in relatively restrictive communities see this show and think, "Hey, it's a place where I can broaden my horizons" and next year they add to our event. I think it's a shame if people see this and think "titties and beer! Gotta do that next year." But I don't think the T&B aspect really is likely to come across on a Disco Channel piece - not enough of a story in that.

It's not going to affect my burn. I do plan to watch the show.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:43 pm

IMO, you could do worse than Discovery. Personally I think it would be a kick if the Food Network did something on Playa cuisine...maybe as a segment in Epicurious...

Anyway, do we know for sure one way or another whether this guy who hosts it was in the community or not? If he was a previous-years Burner, it's entirely possible that he came up with the idea and his bosses gave him the go-ahead.

I'm opposed to commodification <i>at</i> the event, but after — there's precious few ways to control that without being hypocritical. We all like to yelp about busybodies dictating to us what we can or can't do in our own homes, what business is it of yours what the rest of the country watch? Or don't watch?

Sure, sometimes the media's off and a lot of them don't "get it." Watch the show and see how it turns out before you pass judgement. Think of it as a video scrapbook if you like.

By the way, excellent points about Hip E. Burner. Yeah, tell me we don't funnel millions into the coffers of Costco and Home Depot every summer with our projects and infrastructure...

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:59 am

nignog wrote:Sad Pussy? I expected much more than that.

I believe it was SANDY pussy. Sorry to hear you think your pussy's sad.

nignog wrote:Don't worry I will not burn this year..

Pity for you that you would deprive yourself of something you thought was important to you. At least important enough to vomit this diatribe for the rest of us to read.

nignog wrote:As far as starting my own event, that's the problem, the free exchange of art, emotion and life is next to impossiable in today's culture.

Bullshit. Absolutely unadulterated bullshit.

I dont know about you, but I freely exchange art, emotion and life with every person I come in contact with. Usually without my conscious thought put into it. Your words are simply a front to your own cowardice. Its far easier to complain than to step up and do anything on your own. Put up or shut up.

nignog wrote: BM is an example of the "what's going on over there?" culture in the United States. Once THEY saw what was going on out on the playa, THEY said, let use this for our gain, and let make some money off this thing.

Welcome to the information age, Bubba. Everyone wants to know "what's going on over there?" To do otherwise is to live your life with your head in the sand and remain ingorant.

This is the reason Discovery channel wants to come out there and document it. Will their coverage be any differnt than what has already been created thousands of times over? Perhaps. As Swampdog has mentioned, Discovery does a good job of showing things in an unbiased light. The fact that they are "embedding" the reporter is a fantastic way to cover the event. We'll have to wait and see if they can pull it off.

And no one is getting rich off the money made at the event. Except perhaps the BLM and the local businesses.

nignog wrote: I'm not mad at BM INC, , it's just not my thing now, it's yours, so enjoy.

Its a limited liability company . Not a corporation. Two totally different things.

And I most-assuredly will enjoy myself. Thanks. I plan on meeting friends, making new ones and doing a lot of that "free exchange of art, emotion and life" stuff you find so impossible to do in todays culture.

And I gaurantee you that I wont spend a single second thinking about your sorry ass sitting at home.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:10 am

no one is getting rich off the money made at the event.

while the BRC LLC is not getting rich, it does afford its members a lifestyle they have grown accustomed to.

personally, i voiced my opinion to a personal letter to Maid Marian and Larry, sent to first camp BRC, regarding the double edged sword that is recording the event on film and the slippery slope of inviting commercial television, that Discovery Channel is part of, to the event.

i am curious about the response or lack thereof that i will get.

time will tell, and we shall see.[/url]

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:45 am

Ugh. I just clicked the link to see what the show was about and I couldn't sit through the ad for "Mr. Clean brand(tm) handy cleaning product #354." This is all very un-burning man.

To the management: WTF guys? Are you are concerned for everyone's privacy and decommodification, or do you just hassle those of us trying to bring in cameras that cannot afford the "as of yet undisclosed fee?" I'm hoping there will be a lot of blurry people when this airs (someone still has to sign a release, I assume.)

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:06 am

All cameras need to be checked through media mecca, which requires you to sign a document and tag your camera. As far as I know there is no fee for non-commercial photography.

If, on the other hand, you are planning on making money off the images you take at the event, I believe that is another story.

DaBomb · Post by **DaBomb** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:39 pm

Anyway, do we know for sure one way or another whether this guy who hosts it was in the community or not? If he was a previous-years Burner, it's entirely possible that he came up with the idea and his bosses gave him the go-ahead.

Presumably "this guy" you reference is Charlie LeDuff, the host. I found him this year lounging in Media Mecca, BM's equivalent of a green room, with his producer. I believe this is their idea of participating. To me, this is rather indicative of the reporting that he and his team has done, isolating themselves from the experience beneath the DPW built shade structure of the Media Mecca, while their "B" Camera crew is out shooting cut away shots for when someone tells Charlie to "FUCKOFF".

I did invite the Discovery Channel Team as well as BMorg on two occasions (just to make sure they got the invite) to a panel discussion on stage in Center Camp on Sunday, September 4th @ 3:00 pm (which was pushed to 4:00 pm). Nobody from either side attended, although I did speak with Action Girl in Media Mecca for about 20 minute prior to our scheduled discussion. Unfortunately, she too declined to attend. She seemed mystified why the Discovery Channel was targeted and not ABC's hour long featured piece (for yet another cheesy magazine format that is slickly packaged for mass consumption). It saddens me that she seemed so clueless as to why the community is upset by these actions.

Andie, I know you pay close attention to postings relevant to this topic, so I invite you here to respond. I await your response with keen interest, Andie.

Until then, I leave you all with this:

> http://www.circlemagazine.com/issuetwentytwo/hat.html

He <Larry Harvey> then cites examples, statistics, suggesting how
"Bonding Social Capital" is being lost in America today. In the United
States, the average house has 2.4 TV sets which are on an average of 7
hours a day; not necessarily to watch, often to listen "If only to
listen to the laugh track on a sitcom, so as not to feel alone,"

The best minds, he asserts, have applied the science of marketing and
the media of mass culture to produce "Artificial states of
experience," that produce "Artificial States of being; and the only
thing that is sacred is being." We watch Projected Images of others
being and doing, which isolate us from our innermost needs, because we
are not involved personally being, doing and becoming connected to
other people around us. We substitute the attainment of material
objects for the experience of being. "And so, we kill ourselves" says
Harvey.

> http://www.catalystmagazine.net/issues/ ... ?story=280

"You know, the first cities by and large were not devoted to commerce,
they were ritual centers devoted to the sacred. If you wanted to
critique consumerism, you'd call it 'simony,' which is an unhallowed
trafficking in sacred things. When the television sells us states of
being, that's what it's doing."
- Larry Harvey

Love and Rockets,
DaBomb
[/img]

DaBomb · Post by **DaBomb** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:02 pm

As printed in the current edition of the Official 2005 Burning Man Survival Guide:

COLLECTIVE EFFORT - Community is cooperative -- uniting us as varied members of one body. When, by contrast, we consume a service, we're made passive. 50 million people may view a television program or consume a beverage in complete isolation from one another.*

However, the LLC is NOT cooperative towards the community in which they fostered. There was no discussion with the community about this issue. When I personally invited LLC to discuss this issue, they declined to do so at the event, in Center Camp, no less. The "Town Hall Meeting" has become nothing more than a recruitment drive for volunteers in that it now serves as a mouthpiece for Burning Man LLC in inviting people to dedicate 32 hours of their week to Rangering, mandating that they give up their Burn night. From personal experience, BM-LLC is unwilling to meet with the community to discuss the sale of our image, our art and our culture, but rather prefer to "commodify" our "community" by selling us to the media for an undisclosed fee and an unclear purpose.

Also cited in the above referenced official Burning Man document:

Should you encounter a problem, approach and ask for their tag number, and report it to a Media Mecca volunteer or a Black Rock Ranger.*

As per this advice, when I enquired at the Media Mecca for the Discovery Channel's camera tag number, they feigned ignorance and declined to state. This was disturbing to me. If they did not know what Discovery Channels Tag number was, how would they be able to take any actions against them if a complaint was filed?

The BMorg rep at Media Mecca then directed me to the Discovery Times Crew, whereupon I asked DTC what their tag number was. Their response was immediate and defensive. They wanted to know why I needed this information. They further went on to state that they did not know what they're tag number was!

It would seem that the BM-LLC is more interested in co-creating publicity with the Media and authorizing an hour long infomercial. However, I think they should bear in mind (as excerpted once again from the Official 2005 Burning Man Survival Guide):

Informality: In the community [sic] transactions of value take place without money, advertising or hype. Care emerges in place of structured service.*

--

* The Official 2005 Survival Guide, page 2.[/quote]

dj big E · Post by **dj big E** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:12 pm

From what i understand if you were interviewed or documented on film the crew asked you to sign release forms I know this because one of our camp mates were interviewed I am just wondering when the time came how many signed and how many refused. I sure would have liked to seen the host of the show step into the thunderdome lmao yeah right. BIG E

Discovery Channel at BM 2005

Heresy

how many refused