Discovery Channel at BM 2005

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:54 pm

Hey everyone, just got back and thought I would give you a little update:

One first person report I received during the week involved a producer for Discovery Times visiting the Mousetrap. The producer pulled up in an undecorated golf cart and walked up the individual in charge and said:

"Ok, charlie is going to be here in like 15 minutes so everything set? We wanna see something spectacular so make sure you smash something that will look really impressive on camera ok?"

someone over hearing this shouted out "How about your golf cart?""

to which the crowd began chanting "Golf Cart, Golf Cart, Golf Cart!!"

Apparently (acording to my on playa conversation with Action Girl) they did not follow the Rangers around and I think that's at least in part owed to the publicity we've given this issue. I encourage everyone to get the word out about this and to express your opinions and ask questions of the Organization. If this really is a community (drink) then we should be able to have a discussion about this issue.

When we asked the cafe stage manager for time to bring this issue to the people on the playa we were originally alloted 30 minutes. When he found out the LLC declined to be there we were given 15 minutes, then 10 and finally we were told that we would only have 5 minutes. When asked why, we were told "Because it's a political issue", apparently you can't discuss politics at Center Camp. No matter as we used our 5 minutes well and were able to continue the discussion off stage and educate a lot of people who had no idea that a 1.7 billion dollar corporate media giant was prowling their experience for images to use to sell products.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:18 pm

The political issue is pretty lame, if that is going to be increasingly widened to be used in arguments its also a scary thought.

But the org gave them a golf-cart? That kinda adds insult to injury with a faceslap privelage against the principals.

NEXUS · Post by **NEXUS** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:33 pm

I may be new to this experience, but I feel invested just the same in preserving the spirit of this one of a kind event. What I fail to grasp, and find to be especially disturbing, is the potential for hypocrisy on the part of BMORG who it seems is selectively choosing to circumvent its own standards for reasons not clearly defined. Why does BMORG remain silent on this issue, or does it simply need to rise high enough to reach the right ear? I think, if nothing else, BMORG should declare its intentions, with *the ideal* being to provide a forum for an informed discussion of the matter among all members of the greater burning man community who are willing to participate. Or is this going to be simply another example of an elitist decision making process that forces its will upon a majority it feels it isn't accountable to.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:42 pm

The words "Sold Out" come to mind when I think about all this.

I ran into the fuckos with the camera and the boom mic guy trailing along behind on several occasions and I found them to be rude, obnoxious assholes of the first order. Of course when I hear that the show will show up on Discovery I'll set the DVR to record it....but making an assumption based on the behaviors I saw it's not going to be pretty. I hope that the LLC gets pre-screening and editorial rights over all content to keep the fuckos in check.

I'm trying to be nice on how I write this...the use of "fuckos and assholes" doesn't begin to reflect the animosity I have toward that fucking group....and I hope they are never invited back to ANY event I ever attend again.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:45 pm

NEXUS wrote: Or is this going to be simply another example of an elitist decision making process that forces its will upon a majority it feels it isn't accountable to.

Thats what I am afraid of. Those types of actions are typically a huge erosion to community effort, while other members try to take it seriously in light of "its just a big party in the desert" comments.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:55 pm

When discussing this issue with the Stage Manager of the Cafe he politely suggested that I "might be happier attending a regional event, afterall this is just a business designed, like all businesses, to make money for the people in charge".

In a way he might be right. The thing is, I wouldn't be bitching at The Coachella Music Festival for allowing Charlie to film at their event. Coachella has never asked that I bring my art there, nor have they requested 35+ hours of my volunteer labor. They've never referred to what they are doing as a "community". They don't have 10 guiding principles to their event which would appear counter intuitive to allowing a corporate media giant in to film a reality t.v. show.

I guess I just have a lot of questions, questions that aren't being answered.

like, what the hell is the point of this thing anyway? Does Larry want to grow this event to 60,000 people? I spoke to at least one BLM Ranger on the playa who felt that 60,000 would be the number of people expected after the airing of the Discovery Channel episode. (and yes I know that Burning Man has been on tv as mentioned in other posts in this thread, but nothing that has both featured the event and had the same reach/ratings that are expected with this program).

Why has the "Town Hall Meeting" devolved into a volunteer recruitment drive? When and where can members of the "community" address concerns?

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:17 pm

Chai Guy wrote:When discussing this issue with the Stage Manager of the Cafe he politely suggested that I "might be happier attending a regional event, afterall this is just a business designed, like all businesses, to make money for the people in charge".

He actually said that? Bad call, as I am sure he would not go 'on the record' and state this publically in front of the Discovery Times Channel film crew.

Its not the people in charge who make up the event, just like its not a government that makes up a country, or a board of directors that make up a corporation. You can take the drama, you can take the power, and you can take the money because it is, as it always has been, and always will be ... about the people.

tisha2 · Post by **tisha2** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:47 pm

spectabillis wrote:
Chai Guy wrote:When discussing this issue with the Stage Manager of the Cafe he politely suggested that I "might be happier attending a regional event, afterall this is just a business designed, like all businesses, to make money for the people in charge".
He actually said that? Bad call, as I am sure he would not go 'on the record' and state this publically in front of the Discovery Times Channel film crew.

Its not the people in charge who make up the event, just like its not a government that makes up a country, or a board of directors that make up a corporation. You can take the drama, you can take the power, and you can take the money because it is, as it always has been, and always will be ... about the people.

i am having a real hard time believing that was said... pretty much everyone working in the cafe is painfully aware of how much money is NOT made above expenses, and most are volunteers - what burner would volunteer for a profit-making business??? or maybe he (and if it was who I think it was) knew exactly who you were and was just pranking you based on your well-known views about the event?

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:39 pm

Dabomb was standing right next to me when he said this, you can also ask her and I will invite her to corroborate my story here. He didn't seem to know me or my reputation. In all fairness to him, I think he was doing the absolute best job he could. His motivation was providing entertainment, not a soap box for me to stand on. That's cool, I totally understand.

Burning Man LLC IS a for-profit limited liability company, and yes they make money. I hope that this isn't news to you Tisha.

NEXUS · Post by **NEXUS** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:44 pm

Wow, that's really unfortunate if that one individual's statement in fact mirrors the views of those at BMorg. If so, and that is the intention behind this filming, then all the BMorg preaching to the contrary in the past, is just that, a thing of the past. That does not bode well for them in their attempt to create community when this is obviously no longer what's at stake.

Chai Guy, this topic being buried within a single forum seems to reach few among the larger throng of BRC citizens, and although your well intended efforts to reach the masses at the event were thwarted, are there not perhaps other, more effective channels to carry this message? Would running something in Piss Clear, which is widely distributed at the events as well as having an online presence, perhaps be an effective vehicle to reach more of the community on this issue? They seem radical enough to champion an issue such as this, or perhaps they have their own agenda.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:18 pm

Phase II involves assembling all the facts, putting up a web page and educating people at the regional level. I think we've rung the gong and the LLC is listening.

NEXUS · Post by **NEXUS** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:30 pm

Good, I look forward to following this issue as the facts play out.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:19 pm

"Ok, charlie is going to be here in like 15 minutes so everything set? We wanna see something spectacular so make sure you smash something that will look really impressive on camera ok?"

That's the problem I have with this whole thing more than the other aspects. The mere presence of network TV cameras has a way of changing behavior. First, the guys standing next to the camera start directing people around. That was cool, do that again. Wait, the light is better here. Let's get some more women to stand in the background. Get the fat guy out of the shot. Next, people start seeking out the cameras so they can possibly get on tv. The events and art start being staged for the camera rather than for the attendees. I saw this happen with BattleBots and hope it isn't happening with Power Tool Drag Races yet.

Some guy approached me about some Discovery Channel producer interviewing me about my car and I just told him "It ain't gonna happen". He got a really confused look on his face and I drove off.

EB · Post by EB » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:14 pm

I just fear the day when the producers of "Passion Cove" come calling...

EB

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:58 pm

from Tribe.net
http://sanfrancisco.tribe.net/thread/7d ... 80&r=10535

hah!!! I had a first hand interaction with the DCT crew this year.

It was Saturday afternoon, and I was leading the pyro perimeter team around the man, so that the pyro team could load the fireworks etc without being disturbed. Anyway, at one point, the crew up on top of The Man started yelling that someone was throwing eggs, after a few moments, I identified the offender, who was being filmed by a film crew. I jumped in to interact as the Pyro team was mighty pissed (not to mention nervous....initially they didn't know what was being thrown, and wether or not it might ignite what they were working on) Initially, I started out a little hot, because I was being protective of the pyro team. So when I saw that the film crew was now filming my interaction with the host, I asked them not to film, and they quickly complied by turning the camera away.

After a few moments of talk with the egg thrower, I realized that this was the (infamous) DCT crew, after confirming this with the film crew, I told them to go ahead and film, somehow this knowledge also helped me to relax a little. Turns out the host, had interviewed Larry, the day before and asked if he could throw an egg at the man.....something which any other day of the week would not have been a big deal. (other than the moop factor) But as it turns out.....they picked the day of the burn, during the pyro load in to do that particular shoot. I explained the situation, and they were very apologetic. After, I signed a release. Then....one of the producers pulled me aside and said sheepishly....when he threw the egg....we weren't filming....any chance we can just get a shot of him going through the motion, he won't actually throw it.

I thought about it for a second, and then asked them to do it as a cut away from farther away from the man....(at about the L2K ring) As luck would have it....it wasn't far enough away, the Pyro team saw it, and freaked out again, even calling into their Supe and asking that the crew be ejected from the event. Once again, I interacted and explained what I had 'okayed' thankfully they got it that time, and I told them to go far far away from the man, until that evening for the burn. As far as I know, they did.

I personally, have no problem with them filming or with the way the crew behaved themselves....the host....well.....he might be a bit of a yahoo and an ass...(or at least his screen persona is) but then....there are plenty of other asses at BM....so big deal.

daMongolian

Killbuck · Post by **Killbuck** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:24 pm

As a sort of After Action...

On Tuesday night, as Miniman begged his father to acknowledge him... which he eventually did... I was approached by the Discovery crew for an interview. They did fully describe why they were, and what they were there for-- and said they would not film me without a signed release.

Well, being a (sorta) shameless self promoter, I fully agreed. As the interview began, a fellow in a tan suit with an accent began to question my responses to the question of "what Burning Man means." He was rather good at it... but so am I-- profession don't you know... and I enjoyed the barbed banter. I also had the advantage of having seen this person also engage another in an interview a few minutes before off in the distance- but when he came forward with me, I understood he was no average BRC citizen, but the appointed shill, there to do the job of having the interviewee question his or her own assumptions.

In the end, I left them with a laughing phrase they surely will never use, even on cable.

Kernul Killbuck,
APOKILIPTIKA

the_iconoclast · Post by **the_iconoclast** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:16 am

Being a first year Burner, I am, perhaps a bit naive. I have sitting on my shelf, a stack of DVDs produced over the years by individuals and corporations about Burning Man. Each was purchased either online or in a store... I can't remember being gifted a single one. Each of the producers of the documentaries approached the LLC for permission and it was granted. How many people were asked by "Folding Time" if it was cool to have your image shot over the course of the week? I know I wasn't... So when a major network comes to the LLC and says "Hey, we'd like to do a documentary." why would the LLC say no?
I am amazed, at times the complete lack of logic and saturation of "conspiracy" thinking that goes on in this "community". Logic states that Burning Man has a positive effect on thousands of people a year and many of these people take it into the world a make it a little better... wouldn't it be great to help dispell a few of the pre-conceived concepts people have about Burning Man? Is it only the right of the individual and select corporations to make documentaries and we must keep a company like DIscovery out because it is a channel that brings some of the best programming to television? Is it an attitude of "everything on TV is saturated commercialism and I am too good for tht because I don't watch TV, eat unbranded cereal, and think I am special becasue I loathe authority." It is always assumed that there was some kind of pay-off to the LLC and that they are lining their pockets and/or violating the ideals of that which they run... No one ever asked what the kick-backs were from all the other documentaries..

If everybody needs something to bitch about, how abou Govt. response to the shit going down in New Orleans... and if you want something to be proud of - how about BRC raising $10,000 to send off to the relief funds. How about BMIR running radio spots giving info on how to help hurricane survivors.. how about the people who came forward with sattelite phones at the event so people from the affected areas could try to call home.. How about DPW gatherin supplies and radios to send to relief workers.. These orgs are all part of the BMP.... If you want something to bitch about - bitch about the attendees who still didn't get the fucking concept of putting shit, piss, and TP ONLY in the porta-crappers.

I guess I just want someone to explain how this whole "controversy" is not just a bunch of hypocritical, oversentsitive BS when the question of all the other documentaries is factored in.. is becasue it will be on TV? The SF Chronicle, Reno Gazette, and dozens of other papers have been running articles and had media reps at the Burn.. are these all part of the conspiracy??? Someone please explain the big deal to me as I am obviously obtuse becasue I think too much and own so many other BM documentaries that I paid for.... Someone explain to me how it would be different if the people who made "Dust Devils" asked a friend to do "x" because it would be cool for the documentary than Discovery and the egg incident..

Thanks for you time.
I look forward to having this cleared up.
Iconoclast

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:28 pm

So when a major network comes to the LLC and says, "Hey, we'd like to do a documentary." why would the LLC say no?

I would hope that they would say no to anyone who uses the following tag line to sell their product:

"Take an eye-opening journey across the country to experience America's unique subcultures from the inside."

Well, it that isn't commodification, I don't know what is.

Also, this isn't a documentary, by any stretch of the imagination. This is reality tv, plain and simple. (and reality tv has surprisingly little to do with reality, just read the previous posts about the various staged and rehearsed antics of this project).

Take a look for yourself at the preview and tell me what you think (oh and sorry, you'll have to watch an advertisement before you watch the advertisement for the show):
http://times.discovery.com/convergence/ ... erica.html

I am amazed, at times the complete lack of logic and saturation of "conspiracy" thinking that goes on in this "community". Logic states that Burning Man has a positive effect on thousands of people a year and many of these people take it into the world a make it a little better... wouldn't it be great to help dispel a few of the pre-conceived concepts people have about Burning Man?

I think that would be wonderful. Unfortunately, I'm convinced that this program will not do that. Case in point: Do we really want 10,000 more people showing up next year with the idea that throwing eggs at the man is some kind of celebrated act of "participation"?

Is it only the right of the individual and select corporations to make documentaries and we must keep a company like Discovery out because it is a channel that brings some of the best programming to television?

I guess "some of the best programming to television" is debatable, I'm not sure I'd agree that Discovery's "Monster Garage" is on the same level as, say, PBS's "Frontline", but I'm willing to agree to disagree with you on this point. The fact is that Discovery Channel is a 1.6 billion dollar big corporate media giant with 36 million subscribers. I find it difficult to understand why a "community" of independent artists can't come up with an independent media source to broadcast from.

Is it an attitude of "everything on TV is saturated commercialism and I am too good for that because I don't watch TV, eat unbranded cereal, and think I am special because I loathe authority."

Nope, more like, "This is a no-commerce event and taking images that were created by the community and using them to sell Coca-Cola smacks of commerce".

You might also be interested in these quotes from Larry Harvey regarding Television:

The best minds, he asserts, have applied the science of marketing and
the media of mass culture to produce "Artificial states of
experience," that produce "Artificial States of being; and the only
thing that is sacred is being." We watch Projected Images of others
being and doing, which isolate us from our innermost needs, because we
are not involved personally being, doing and becoming connected to
other people around us. We substitute the attainment of material
objects for the experience of being. "And so, we kill ourselves" says
Harvey.
from: http://www.circlemagazine.com/issuetwentytwo/hat.html

"You know, the first cities by and large were not devoted to commerce,
they were ritual centers devoted to the sacred. If you wanted to
critique consumerism, you'd call it 'simony,' which is an unhallowed
trafficking in sacred things. When the television sells us states of
being, that's what it's doing."
- Larry Harvey
from: http://www.catalystmagazine.net/issues/ ... ?story=280

It is always assumed that there was some kind of pay-off to the LLC and that they are lining their pockets and/or violating the ideals of that which they run... No one ever asked what the kick-backs were from all the other documentaries..

All the other documentaries pay 10% of each copy sold to the LLC. There was a "Site Fee" paid to Burning Man LLC, they have not at this time disclosed the amount of that fee. Yet another reason why this program cannot reasonably be considered a documentary or news program as paying for the privilege to film is known as "check book journalism" and usually frowned upon by the legitimate news media.

If everybody needs something to bitch about, how abou Govt. response to the shit going down in New Orleans... and if you want something to be proud of - how about BRC raising $10,000 to send off to the relief funds. How about BMIR running radio spots giving info on how to help hurricane survivors.. how about the people who came forward with sattelite phones at the event so people from the affected areas could try to call home.. How about DPW gatherin supplies and radios to send to relief workers.. These orgs are all part of the BMP.... If you want something to bitch about - bitch about the attendees who still didn't get the fucking concept of putting shit, piss, and TP ONLY in the porta-crappers.

Sorry, I'm not trying to bitch. I'm just calling attention to an issue that most people are completely unaware of. I think it's fine if the organization wants to sell out to Discovery Channel, all I'm asking for is some transparency to an organization that relies on the art and volunteerism of it's community for it's survival. I think it only fair that they be upfront with us in regards to the commodification of our efforts.

Burning Man does many things well, and I'm an equal champion of their positive work.

I guess I just want someone to explain how this whole "controversy" is not just a bunch of hypocritical, oversentsitive BS when the question of all the other documentaries is factored in.. is becasue it will be on TV? The SF Chronicle, Reno Gazette, and dozens of other papers have been running articles and had media reps at the Burn.. are these all part of the conspiracy??? Someone please explain the big deal to me as I am obviously obtuse becasue I think too much and own so many other BM documentaries that I paid for....

1. Other Documentaries Vs. Discovery Channel:

Discovery Channel is not a documentary it's a reality tv show, please view the preview and tell me you think it's not. Other documentaries pay a fee based on sales, a standardized 10%, Discovery Channel has paid a yet undisclosed site fee, something most legitimate journalists will tell you is unethical. The other documentaries are presented without commercial interruption, they are being used as information and entertainment only by people who have purchased the media. The Discovery Channel program is being used to advertise products. In a sense everyone who had their image or art filmed is now advertising for those corporations who have purchased time on Discovery Channel.

2. Other Media Sources: The other media sources are respected outlets of journalism that will be running news pieces on a limited or one time basis. The Discovery Channel program will run in perpetuity and will continue to generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in ad revenue each time it is shown. The artists who created the work featured (along with their own likeness and image) will receive NONE of that money.

Someone explain to me how it would be different if the people who made "Dust Devils" asked a friend to do "x" because it would be cool for the documentary than Discovery and the egg incident..

"Burning Man is about the process of spontaneous culture."
-- founder Larry Harvey

There is really nothing "spontaneous" about filming scripted scenes or inserting paid employees as "participants" to invoke anger or excitement into your film. I'm not aware of anything like that happening in the "Dust Devils" film, but obviously if it did, I would find it equally distasteful.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:31 pm

the_iconoclast wrote:I guess I just want someone to explain how this whole "controversy" is not just a bunch of hypocritical, oversentsitive BS when the question of all the other documentaries is factored in..

Cant speak for everyone, but I dont agree with most of those. I guess there is a need for a limited level of publicity to share with other like-intentioned people to what it is all about, but I dont think a commercial route is the one to take. As with most things there are different actions of right and wrong, but most lay within the grey area in-between.

A commercial one is not the right choice, not when you factor in the anti-commerce principals and influence.

Killbuck · Post by **Killbuck** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:36 pm

I originally learned about Burning Man back some years ago from a commercial TV travel channel series called "Lonely Planet." I certainly found it good enough to determine myself to attend, as soon as I could-- which I managed to for the first time in 2003. I sort of feel like I owe that little TV series something- it was well done. I hope never to miss another burn again. This trail has led me back to my original life, as an artist, a life I thought I was taking a short detour from when a supposedly brief stint to do some service for the govt came up. Over 20 years later, the stint got stuck. But, by next year, I determine to return full time as an artist largely from the powerful inspiration I found at my first burn in 2003... a point I reached by aimlessly changing channels one night in Wyoming.

As to Discovery Productions? I can say this or say that- but what will that mean? I have the luxury of not having to be the one to choose.

Driveway · Post by **Driveway** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:09 am

Chai Guy...

You do not own your face. You do not own your actions. Anything you do becomes the communal property of everyone who experiences/witnesses your actions, or the results thereof.

If some people choose to use this property for their own gain, they have that right. It was your own choice to pay money/donate time/create art.

You do not own the results of your artwork.

It is not the responsibility of the festival you are attending to ensure you have a good time.

You are overreacting. You need to chill out. Have some playa-filled water. I still have three-quarters of a nalgene full which I am saving for a special occasion. You are welcome to it.
Consider it a gift.

And finally....exposing more people to Burning Man is a GOOD thing.

Killbuck · Post by **Killbuck** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:04 am

I'm often torn when it comes to exposing more people to BM... on one hand, I feel everyone should have the opportunity to know of it, then I'm struck with the "oh hell, what happens then" thought. Maybe part of the mystique of BM is its mystery with the general public.

Many do not want BM to become "mainstream" which I think is a long way off... but at least here in NV, it has gained a curious acceptance-- a sort of underlying pride in being the home of the wierdest event on earth, though not universal to be sure.

We tend to want to keep it to ourselves-- which would have left me in the dark certainly longer before the media clued me in.

I suppose this dicussion is one that will never really end-- and should not.

When people ask me about Burning Man and if they should go- I like to say what David Best said in Beyond Black Rock (a documentary film) saying...

"...I wouldn't if I were you."

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:12 am

Kernul Killbuck wrote:I'm often torn when it comes to exposing more people to BM... on one hand, I feel everyone should have the opportunity to know of it, then I'm struck with the "oh hell, what happens then" thought.

And thats the tough part, balance. Personally I understand the need to reach out, accept, and bring others into the event. Prime example: yourself. I am still amazed on how a first timer can create one of the absolute best theme camps on the playa this year and as such, you will always have my great admiration respect. You helped re-establish some of the trust I have that despite these problems, the event is still strong enough to overcome them.

I guess its similar, in a limited way, to the influx of the rave scene and sound camps that threatened to overcome the event for thier specific needs and desires. Borg2 went a long way in raising the attention to the cause of art and helped tremendously with that, while keeping yet another group (ravers) included that has always been an important part.

How do you get the word out and bring others in without killing the spirit? Dont think anyone has that answer, but I am a bit disappointed with the org in how they could have handled it better - but then again - they might retain the rights of content in what is shown and how. At least that would give an opportunity to include certain information or disclaimers - like commerce is not a part of the event despite the hypocricy of showing it on a syndicated network with commercials, and the need to advertise of what its all about.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:12 am

Driveway...

You do not own your face.

I'm sorry, I do own my face, my image and my likeness. No one can use these for commercial gain without my express written permission. (this is why Discovery Channel had people running around with clip boards getting people to sign their rights away).

Read this:
Right of Publicity

The right of publicity grew out of the general principles of invasion of privacy that prohibited the appropriation of a person's name or likeness to gain some benefit. Within the past few decades, the right of publicity has emerged as an independent type of claim that can be made when a person 's name or likeness is used for commercial purposes. Although the right of publicity is commonly associated with celebrities, every person, regardless of how famous, has a right to prevent unauthorized use of their name or image to sell products. The right of publicity extends beyond the commercial use of a person's name or image and includes the use of any personal element that implies an individual's endorsement of a product, provided that the public can identify the individual based upon the use.

In many states, the right of publicity survives death and can be exercised by the person's estate.
From:
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_a ... /12-a.html

If some people choose to use this property for their own gain, they have that right. It was your own choice to pay money/donate time/create art. You do not own the results of your artwork.

.

No, I'm sorry but again you are misinformed. I chose to pay money/donate time/create art for the people of Black Rock City who were sharing that moment with me. I did not do it so that someone could film it and then use that film to sell products on television. And again it's not ok to use someone else’s art or image to sell products. In fact, try using an image of the "Burning Man" (or even just use the name "Burning Man") to sell a product on ebay. Watch how fast the Burning Man lawyers slap your ass with a cease and desist letter.

More reading for you:
Under section 102 of the Act, copyright protection extends to "original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device." The Act defines "works of authorship" as any of the following: (1) literary works, (2) musical works, including any accompanying words, (3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music, (4) pantomimes and choreographic works, (5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works, (6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works, and (7) sound recordings. An eighth category, architectural works, was added in 1990.
found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_ ... 26_purpose

It is not the responsibility of the festival you are attending to ensure you have a good time.

I agree, and I never said it was their responsibility, I'm not sure where you got this from.

You are overreacting. You need to chill out. Have some playa-filled water. I still have three-quarters of a nalgene full which I am saving for a special occasion. You are welcome to it.
Consider it a gift.

I honestly don't think I'm overreacting. This issue is a clear and drastic departure from previous standards set by the organization. It's been done entirely behind the scenes with no public disclosure to the thousands of volunteers and artists that make this event happen. All I'm asking for is transparency to an organization that relies upon the people they are exploiting for their survival. I don't think that's too much to ask.

And finally....exposing more people to Burning Man is a GOOD thing.

Finally, something we can both agree upon. I think exposure is great. I think this is the wrong medium for exposure. I think this is the wrong venue for exposure. I think the crew that was sent to film did so in an irresponsible and disrespectful manner. I think they violated the basic tenets of respectable journalism.

DaBomb · Post by **DaBomb** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:55 am

Larry Harvey gave a talk at Otter Camp this year on Saturday. There were many topics covered, but it struck me that he encouraged alternatives to the contradictory massive ritual commercial consumption our community engages in each year (at Costco, Walmart, etc.) in preparation for a celebrated "non-commercial" experience.

This is ironic in that the man himself has signed off on the media covering our event ("our" as in his, yours and my event) including mainstream commercial, cable and network television. If you check the link for the Discovery Show, you have to sit through a commercial for Mr. Clean first.

In this month's Wired Magazine (http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,128 ... page_prev2), Harvey goes on to say:

We realized that as it [Burning Man] spread, we were already protecting the integrity of the event, that is, protecting that social context that allowed the culture to happen from appropriation in the marketplace, specifically from commodification.

In this same article, Harvey also answers this question:

Why do participants put so much of themselves into projects for no money?

Harvey: This whole desert is an enormous school. It most obviously is an art school. And I have seen artists apprentice themselves to people, because it's so easy. You get involved in collective, collaborative effort, and learn at a rate they never would at an enormous school taught by disgruntled artists and based on art history and theory and with very little guidance and very little down-to-earth information about practice and maybe not enough passion either. And all those things are here. So, (we) have a lot of social capital in (our) community, and people are used to volunteering -- our volunteerism rate in this city is 40 percent.

BMorg indeed does have quite a bit of social capitalism, but that doesn't make it acceptable to parlay that capitalism into economic gain without telling us first.

I participate quite heavily in many aspects in the community of Burning Man. So, I find it apalling to be volunteering my time, sweat equity and personal finances to an organization that preaches "No commercialism! No vending! No commerce!" and yet sells the art, labor and efforts of myself and others in their name.

As a volunteer this year, I heard directly from BMorg to make the volunteers more accountable (i.e. showing up for shifts, doing the job (no slacking), etc.). But this accountability goes both ways! Burning Man LLC wants commodify their product and in so doing the community it fostered.

Obviously there is a paradigm shift occurring. From a business standpoint, the BM LLC wants to grow so that it's employees can maybe own a house, plan for retirement and whatever else our culture defines as "making it". I can understand that and respect that the needs and growth of the event are changing since it began.

The thing is, the BM LLC should be accountable for the growth they seek by COMMUNICATING the changes needed to the event's participants. To be baited with the call for volunteering in a gifting-economy/non-commercial event is not entirely accurate when this said event can sell out to a major media conglomerate for commercial gain.

eticket66 · Post by **eticket66** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:19 am

Well, as I notice the word 'dialog' thrown around more and see the general tone of discussion - mine included - become less shrill, less cut-and-paste, and seemingly more productive I figure it's time to dust off my viewpoint, update a couple things and put it out.

I've read, discussed or listened to most of the back-and-forth and have had some off-thread, er, discussions with daBomb and Chai Guy, both of whom have brought to light some revealing information and viewpoints I agree with. For example, by all accounts the TV crew acted like dumbasses - I'd rather they hadn't come at all given their attitude. I hold out some hope that the Writer/Producer/Whoever on this show captures some semblance of BM essense (whatever that is) during post production, but I'm not holding my breath.

Secondly, I absolutely agree that Bmorg should be way more transparent with this kind of media information. Who the hell wants to randomly encounter poorly behaving film/TV crews on the playa? Or for some of us, any crew? With timely and complete information, at least we can choose in advance whether to interact with media or avoid them.

I still differ with you both on a basic premise, though.

I really haven't heard a convincing argument that this Discovery Times show will have anywhere close to the negative impact (read: increased attendees) that has been claimed. Why should I believe that BM will have 60,000 attendees next year just because a Ranger - or Rangers - thinks it so? What are they basing this on? Comes across as wild speculation.

Even a not-so-modest estimate of an increase of 10,000 attendees seems based on the perception that Charlie LaDuff's show will have a significant viewership and influence, yet I'm not seeing anything that backs this up, except some generalized mention of ratings and comparisons with Monster Garage.

So I checked it out. Discovery's ratings are good for cable - averaging slightly over 1 million viewers during primetime. A hit like Monster Garage peaked at about 1.2 million viewers. But Discovery *Times* Channel, where the LaDuff show actually airs, reveals a comparitively tiny audience. We're literally talking about less than 1/10 the viewers of the parent channel, and I'm being generous.

Still think Charlie LaDuff's show will screw up Burning Man with increased publicity? I'm convinced the influence of this show, negative or otherwise, has been overstated. Way overstated. So a tiny audience watches, and of those, a smaller percentage may decide to join us next year. And if, despite the behavior of the crew, the Producers somehow manage to craft a decent show, then - gasp - the virgins may actually 'get it'. And we'll have a few new asses to paddle. Or did we stop corporal punishment this year?

But hey, what do I know, really? It's just a job. If someone comes up with better figures, I'm all ears.

OK, review time: This TV show will not negatively impact the attendance of burning man by making it too popular. The quality of burning man is not under threat by this small show on a barely-watched channel.

And to me this just isn't a question of corporate media profits (this is nothing new for us anyway) - countless entities profit from our consumption just building and living in our little city. We've got Big Oil, Big Water, Big Auto, Big Airline, Big Hotel, Big Ice, Big Dealer, Big Center Camp Chai.. Rather, I'd like to see this sell-out media cash funneled into more art grants and lower ticket prices.

I therefore propose taking on a new crusade that will have an immediate positive impact on the quality of BM. Lets get rid of those motorized scooters, skateboards and non-art golf carts.

- Randy

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:51 am

I therefore propose taking on a new crusade that will have an immediate positive impact on the quality of BM. Lets get rid of those motorized scooters, skateboards and non-art golf carts.

Expect resistance on changing the scooter policy. Now if it's scooters with seats and non-art golf carts by all means knock yourself out and go for it. But a blanket ban on all scooters will be challenged.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:44 am

Kinetic IV wrote:
I therefore propose taking on a new crusade that will have an immediate positive impact on the quality of BM. Lets get rid of those motorized scooters, skateboards and non-art golf carts.
Expect resistance on changing the scooter policy. Now if it's scooters with seats and non-art golf carts by all means knock yourself out and go for it. But a blanket ban on all scooters will be challenged.

Indeed. Remember our former goddess here, Technopatra and her hurt knee. complicated issues that need nuanced thought.

Oh, and I still haven't worked through my poof to deliver something coherent about the discovery channell thing.

DaBomb · Post by **DaBomb** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:07 am

So I checked it out. Discovery's ratings are good for cable - averaging slightly over 1 million viewers during primetime. A hit like Monster Garage peaked at about 1.2 million viewers. But Discovery *Times* Channel, where the LaDuff show actually airs, reveals a comparitively tiny audience. We're literally talking about less than 1/10 the viewers of the parent channel, and I'm being generous.

I'd love to see these numbers. Do you subscribe to Nielsen? I used to be a research analyst for them.

Here's what I got:

A LOOK AT DISCOVERY CHANNEL
Launched in 1985

Parent company:Discovery Communications
No. of subscribers: 89.8 million homes
Median viewer age: 39.7 years old
Average primetime viewers*: 1,014,000 people
Average total-day viewers*: 542,000 people
Avg. primetime 25-54 viewers*: 576,000 people
Avg. total-day 25-54 viewers*: 303,000 people
Target audience: Adults 25-54 (male skew in primetime)

Main competitors: Female-targeted networks during the day, more male-targeted networks such as History Channel, National Geographic Channel and Discovery’s other networks in primetime.

Upfront presentation (in New York). Thursday, April 7

* Nielsen Media Research, fourth quarter 2004

With topics like: "Fight Club", "Gay Rodeo", "Minor League Football", "Battle Re-enactors" and "New York Fashion Models", the show will be airing in prime time to a male target audience ranging from age 25-54. It wouldn't surprise me if the show doesn't attract the more prurient and sophomoric attention of the "Spring Break" mentality, which begs the questions: does Burning Man need any more yahoos than it already has?

Also, in the March 2005 edition of Media Life Magazine reports that:

Discovery Channel, once immediately identifiable as the cable network for PBS-type nature and science programs, is trying to reclaim that identity as it heads into the upfront ad-selling season.

Like many networks that launched with a tight focus, Discovery Channel’s image has grown murkier over the past few years as it rolled out general-interest programs like “Monster Garage” and “American Chopper” that could easily air on any number of networks. Adding to Discovery’s blurry image is that it has begun competing with itself with its newer networks, including Discovery Health and the Science Channel.

But now, faced with a declining audience, Discovery is refocusing on specials like next month’s “Supervolcano.” Heavy on computer graphics, “Supervolcano” harks back to better times when specials like “Walking with Dinosaurs” drew millions of viewers. It is also doing that with weekly reality-type series such as the upcoming “Firehouse USA,” a reality series about Boston firemen, and “Deadliest Catch,” about the lives of crab fishermen off the Alaska coast.

“It’s part of a conscious strategy on our part,” says Rick Holzman, the network’s newly installed vice president of program planning and scheduling. “We love our success with ‘Monster Garage,’ ‘American Chopper,’ and ‘Monster House.’ But the strength of the Discovery brand goes beyond that.”

The programming shifts are largely a reaction to Discovery’s falling ratings. The network’s primetime audience in fourth quarter was down 13 percent from the same time a year earlier. Holzman says the network will grow its ratings by zeroing in on programs that are emotionally engaging.

“We think of these programs more as docu-soaps than reality shows,” says Holzman, who had been working at Universal Television Group before joining Discovery in January. “What we’re trying to do is insert the viewer in the moment. We think it’s important to take viewers on a dramatic ride.

Oh, a dramatic ride? As the trailer for the show states "Take an eye-opening journey across the country to experience America's unique subcultures from the inside." I just hope this ride doesn't take us through the freakier side of Black Rock City.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:15 am

Hey Randy,

Thanks for the intelligent and well thought out perspective on this issue. I enjoyed our conversation on the playa and I thank you for listening to my views on this issue. I wanted to address a couple of your points:

I really haven't heard a convincing argument that this Discovery Times show will have anywhere close to the negative impact (read: increased attendees) that has been claimed. Why should I believe that BM will have 60,000 attendees next year just because a Ranger - or Rangers - thinks it so? What are they basing this on? Comes across as wild speculation.

Indeed, the number of new people this show will generate is nothing more than speculation. No one can accurately predict how many, or if any new people will show up. I'm using 10,000 as a conservative "guesstimate" and I'll explain how and why in a minute.

So I checked it out. Discovery's ratings are good for cable - averaging slightly over 1 million viewers during primetime. A hit like Monster Garage peaked at about 1.2 million viewers. But Discovery *Times* Channel, where the LaDuff show actually airs, reveals a comparatively tiny audience. We're literally talking about less than 1/10 the viewers of the parent channel, and I'm being generous.

Ahhh... and here's the tricky part, figuring all this out. the Discovery Channel has 16 million subscribers, the Discovery Times Channel is so new that I can't find any information on how many subscribers they currently have. Also, I see no indication that this show won't be used as "cross-over" material and air on Discovery Channel proper. And even if the show fails to "cross-over" that's still 1.6 million subscribers. 10,000 people is less than 1% of that number. (and all of these numbers are for the U.S. , they fail to take into account the Canadian*, Mexican and European markets, they also don't address DVD sales, including the possibility of "uncensored" after market products that have not been addressed by the LLC).

You also quote the 1.2 million viewers statistic, but I believe that's for a single peak airing of "Monster Garage", if you've ever wasted a Saturday afternoon watching Discovery Channel, you know that one episode of "Monster Garage" will air repeatedly in the same day, (sometimes as many as 3-4 times in one day). I can imagine that with limited programming on Discovery *Times* Channel, that it could conceivably air even more than that.

The bottom line is that the potential and probable viewer ship of this show is greater than any other single, 1 hour long, focused piece on the event. Nothing that has been done before will even come close to giving the event the kind of publicity this show has. That is an absolute fact.

The event continues growing at a rate of approximately 14% each year. The real question is what will these 10,000 (or however many) new people who attend the event come expecting to see? How will they participate? What will their attitudes with regards to "leave no trace" be? By the accounts I've received, I don't feel comfortable with Charlie LeDuff educating anyone about anything relating to the event.

If Maid Marian or anyone else disagrees with that statement, I would invite them to head out to the man next year and pick up the egg shells they find on the ground. Apparently throwing eggs at the man is what passes for Radical Self Expression to Charlie.

Oh, and I agree with you that golf carts, motorized scooters and skateboards suck.

*Oh, and Canadians are secretly taking over the event. Just thought you should know.