sustainable burning man?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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Isotopia
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Post by Isotopia » Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:38 pm

I'm pondering how exactly art creates community?
Been holding my breath for this one. Holding it until my head feel like it's gonna fucking explode. Folks, we're getting warmer.....WARM-ER....

There's a question - a theme - just waiting to be asked here I think. Something not unlike the Grand Unification Theory of Burning Man that I believe many of these topics (positive and negative) are just witing to get plugged into.

I think we'll all know it when it's asked and I just can't fucking wait.....

Kinetic

Post by Kinetic » Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:46 pm

The first 2 days of BM found me sleeping a lot more than usual so I didn't do as much exploring as I wanted to. But when I finally got out, I realized Kidsville was right across from the AEZ. So I walked over there and took a look. And I left very impressed and with a lot of great ideas for next year. No attitudes were found, just a willingness to answer questions and show me how things worked...and a few cases of what didn't and what I should avoid. I learned a lot...now after seeing the AEZ and encountering the wind this year after 02's perfect weather, I'm considering building a wind turbine to recharge batteries. Thanks to everyone I spoke with in the AEZ for being so friendly and answering my questions.

jolly roger
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Post by jolly roger » Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:47 pm

tbone wrote:
He hates generators, but is also a welder. What to do?
Come by next year and see the (ex-RTD bus) motor home that
Reverand Gadget built. And notice the 8 65watt (4amp) panels on the
roof of the bus. 32 amps is plenty for many welders. Gadget
does heavy steel work and will have his welder with him next year.

jolly roger

You can always get ideas to work once you DECIDE to do it.

Kinetic II

Post by Kinetic II » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:56 pm

:idea:

Before we know it every camp will want the power grid extended to them...is there a better answer besides grid power? How about more solar and wind power for example...is it possible to push for cleaner power on the playa?

talisen
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Re: some questions

Post by talisen » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:05 pm

I'm pondering how exactly art creates community?
A bit of textual knife work yealds: How art creates community

oh- how the heck is yealds spelled?

Araceli

Post by Araceli » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:01 pm


talisen
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Post by talisen » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:33 pm

Damn i before e, one of these days I'll remember that.......

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ramen
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Post by ramen » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:49 pm

If people really wanted sustainable, they would ban cars completely. Then approximately 5.3 folks would actually show up. Very sustainable and ecological too.

They could burn a stick figure man at dusk on the third night before they ran out of the water they packed in on their bikes.
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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:11 pm

dirtytuba wrote: First I ask why there hasn't been a push to get a passager train to the event. I realize the logistics of getting a passager train on to the frieght line would be a HUGE task. and then there is the problem of getting all yer stuff there if you take this fantacy train but maybe there is a couple of cargo cars on that train....
Dang, then you have to set up some sort of train station out in the middle of nowhere. And shuttle all the people from the depot to the city. (No, having BRC by the traintracks does NOT strike me as a good idea.) Is the train itself running on biodiesel? Is biodeisel the most appropriate fuel? It's a car heavy event, a bastard child of Eisenhower's interstates. When we are no longer an automobile culture it will have to reform itself. I think that means it comes closer to a city, not alternative transportation to the event.

InhouseSucks
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Post by InhouseSucks » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:29 pm

[quote="dirtytuba"][quote="s5"]i have lots of thoughts on this, and i'm glad to see others have been thinking about it too. i strongly believe that "leave no trace" needs to apply to the air we breathe.[/quote]

I have been wondering about this. only because of the amount of fuel that everyone uses to get to the event, AND the amount of Lumber that is puchased for the explicit purpose of burning.

First I ask why there hasn't been a push to get a passager train to the event. I realize the logistics of getting a passager train on to the frieght line would be a HUGE task. and then there is the problem of getting all yer stuff there if you take this fantacy train but maybe there is a couple of cargo cars on that train....
just an idea...

and then there is the man itself... is that all new lumber? seems like BMorg is promoting deforsetation rather than recycled wood.[/quote]

Wow. I LOVE the idea of a passenger train taking folks out to the "event". SURELY there could be some charter arrangements made, much the same that one can do this with airlines. Amtrack makes it to Reno at least.

But we need to go further than that. Composting toilets anyone? (And since I didn't read the rest of the thread yet, does the person who used the solar cells to run some other festival provide any more details? Our camp has music, and lights, and has been run off a genny. But considering all the rest of the waste that I've tried to fight against, adding electrical power to the list seems like a complete uphill battle.

P.S. does any of the info the AEZ folks have ever make it the the JRS newsletters??

InhouseSucks
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Post by InhouseSucks » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:04 am

[quote="theCryptofishist"][quote="dirtytuba"]
First I ask why there hasn't been a push to get a passager train to the event. I realize the logistics of getting a passager train on to the frieght line would be a HUGE task. and then there is the problem of getting all yer stuff there if you take this fantacy train but maybe there is a couple of cargo cars on that train....[/quote]Dang, then you have to set up some sort of train station out in the middle of nowhere. And shuttle all the people from the depot to the city. (No, having BRC by the traintracks does NOT strike me as a good idea.) Is the train itself running on biodiesel? Is biodeisel the most appropriate fuel? It's a car heavy event, a bastard child of Eisenhower's interstates. When we are no longer an automobile culture it will have to reform itself. I think that means it comes closer to a city, not alternative transportation to the event.[/quote]

Speaking of Eisenhower's interstates, there's a good movie showing in S.F. for you "city" folks called "The End Of Suburbia." And apparently there are TWO chances for you to see it coming up. One is for World Carfree Day on 9/22 at The Red Victorian Bed and Breakfast (not the theater), 1665 Haight Street at 6pm. And it's followed by a panel discussion on peak oil and its implications for transportation in San Francisco and the Bay Area (with panelists Supervisor Ross Mirkarimi, Dave Room of the Post Carbon Institute, and Leah Shahum of the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition.)

For more information, call (415) 668-3119

The other screening is on November 8 at 2:00PM at the San Francisco Public Library, 100 Larkin Street , Koret Auditorium.


This movie is HIGHLY recommended, and I'd guess with the panel discussion, the 22nd is the best time to see it.

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Chai Guy
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Post by Chai Guy » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:08 am

Composting toilets anyone?
Your poop is already being composted on unedible garlic fields. So we can check that one off the list.

I LOVE the idea of a passenger train taking folks out to the "event". SURELY there could be some charter arrangements made, much the same that one can do this with airlines. Amtrack makes it to Reno at least.
I agree, it's a beautiful idea, but Amtrak can't even run a train on time without getting bumped by frieght service and they get several million dollars in government hand outs each year. Even chartering rail freight service is a nightmare (ask the NYC folks who've been doing it for the last few years).

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blyslv
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Post by blyslv » Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:13 am

The best thing for the event would be for the ORG to stop doing so much. It's creating an entitlement attitude, an "us v. them" feeling and helping individuals to absolve themselves of their own responsibility.

Hah, like that'll happen!
Fight for the fifth freedom!

Cosworth Magellan
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Re: sustainable burning man?

Post by Cosworth Magellan » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:26 am

God dammit, I promised myself I wasn't going to rant...

(This isn't necessarily directed at the OP. It's just a haphazard rant.)
cinnamontwist wrote:The gist seemed to be, it's in danger of simply becoming too predictable, too routine, as a whole.
Predictable and routine to whom, exactly? The only way it's predictable is if *you* do the same damn things every year.

Four years ago I was getting bored with Burning Man. So I started a theme camp, which ended up having absolutely nothing to do with our theme (teaching people the primitive art of making fire) and everything to do with filling blow-up sex toy dolls with oxygen and acetylene and making them explode with a 12' tall Tesla coil.

This year I was getting bored with the whole up-all-night thing, so I woke up at dawn, went out during the day, explored different parts of the city, and actually got to meet a hell of a lot of people. We still ran our bar in the afternoons, got people drunk, etc, and spanked a hell of a lot of people with the custom-made, engraved paddle our neighbors gave us. Ho-hum, same old shit, I guess.

I'm sorry, but this whole "Burning Man is too predictable" thing sounds like so much veteran burner complaining over nothing. I hardly see Burning Man as being at a critical juncture. If anything the *structure* of the event is stable and not under constant threat of eradication, for once. And just because the event isn't going off in some wild tangent from what it was doesn't mean it's going to be stale. What goes into that structure is entirely up to people. It amazes me how many people go there with the expectation that someone else is supposed to entertain you. We do different things every year, and nothing ever goes according to plan. The only predictable thing at Burning Man, in my opinion, is unpredictability. And people bitching about loud rave camps.

There are enough new people coming in with new ideas every year that you'll never see the same thing twice, unless all you do is hang out in Center Camp and ride around the playa, and even then you'd have to try hard not to encounter things that are wildly different than anything you've seen before. My neighbors this year are a perfect example. Almost all of them were virgins, and I fully expect that they'll be back next year, with their fire-breathing beer launcher. If such a thing is routine, I'd hate to see what out-of-the-ordinary is supposed to be like.

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TheJudge
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Post by TheJudge » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:41 am

Chai Guy wrote:
I LOVE the idea of a passenger train taking folks out to the "event". SURELY there could be some charter arrangements made, much the same that one can do this with airlines. Amtrack makes it to Reno at least.
I agree, it's a beautiful idea, but Amtrak can't even run a train on time without getting bumped by frieght service and they get several million dollars in government hand outs each year. Even chartering rail freight service is a nightmare (ask the NYC folks who've been doing it for the last few years).
To move mass numbers of people, you could probably make do with a bunch of cattle cars. That seemed to be pretty effective for Germany in the 40's.
"Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is primal union." - Lao Tsu

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:58 am

TheJudge wrote:
Chai Guy wrote:
I agree, it's a beautiful idea, but Amtrak can't even run a train on time without getting bumped by frieght service and they get several million dollars in government hand outs each year. Even chartering rail freight service is a nightmare (ask the NYC folks who've been doing it for the last few years).
To move mass numbers of people, you could probably make do with a bunch of cattle cars. That seemed to be pretty effective for Germany in the 40's.
Then you'd have to burn them with the man, and the smell would be just awful...
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Chai Guy
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Post by Chai Guy » Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:11 pm

The best thing for the event would be for the ORG to stop doing so much.
Can I get an AMEN??? AMEN BROTHER!!! Test-i-fy!


To move mass numbers of people, you could probably make do with a bunch of cattle cars. That seemed to be pretty effective for Germany in the 40's.
Now that's just wrong, hilarious, but wrong.

The gist seemed to be, it's in danger of simply becoming too predictable, too routine, as a whole
.

I actually agree with this. One of the early "bad" words from the org was "convenience", it was looked upon with disdain. Now if you ask why they don't have potties on the Esplanade they'll tell you it's not convenient for JOTS (no matter that the Esplanade is where all the etards who need to pee are). If you ask why they don't burn the man on Sunday night anymore, they'll tell it wasn't convenient for people to stay and pick up trash. If you ask why they moved the event from it's 1998 location to the current one (where its been every year since) they'll tell you it's more convenient to have it closer to Gerlach.

It would be nice to see some innovation in terms of the city layout.


"My idea of evil is when people do what is convenient without thinking about the consequences." - Larry Harvey

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Ugly Dougly
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:11 pm

s5 wrote:yeah, i don't think it should be up to the org at all. but i think if someone were to make "kits" or gather information so camps or individuals can set up their own thing, that would go a long way. for example, someone could set up a web page detailing different sources for, say, biodiesel generators, and tailor that information for burning man participants.

it might also be interesting if someone were to set up a mass project where anyone could either "buy in" to a grid (where "buy in" refers to contributions in the general sense - cash, labor, hardware, or whatever) or set up a co-op, so that people can trade power to accomodate different levels of usage at different hours.
"Franchise" is the word you're looking for.

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the fire elf
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Post by the fire elf » Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:18 pm

How art creates community


etheric eManations tickling mass receptors of the highly attuned...
instantiate vacuous truth

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:30 pm

Chai Guy wrote: If you ask why they moved the event from it's 1998 location to the current one (where its been every year since) they'll tell you it's more convenient to have it closer to Gerlach.
I thought that was a BLM stipulation...
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Chai Guy
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Post by Chai Guy » Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:42 am

It's possible that it was a BLM stipulation, I do however believe it was motivated by "convenience" more than anything else.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:29 pm

How about one of those truck-trains they run across the out back, down under?
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:34 pm

Gotta agree on a couple points here.

Number one, we can't make Burning Man *completely* free of fossil fuels. The vehicles used to get it all there run on fossil fuels. And after perusing that hydro cell site, it's pretty obvious that most people will be choosing to lug out gas or at least diesel generators over the hydrocell ones. How many people do you know that have $7000 just laying around yawning and twiddling its thumbs? That's half a car.

Two: it's a DO-ocracy. Do you want a sustainable camp? Go for it! I've been working towards a sustainable camp for several years now. It's slow because I simply don't have the money to plunk down $150 for a solar panel every year. The $150 buys my food and water and materials for giftables.

Hook up with AEZ; if enough people join that august body, it won't be just a village, it'll be a block — then two — then four...Soon you'll have a whole section of Black Rock City where the only fossil fuels are in the gas tanks of idle vehicles.
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

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the fire elf
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Post by the fire elf » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:00 pm

decrepit society torn asunder...

natural disasters?

they hit solar panels too...

~just warming up
instantiate vacuous truth

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griffin
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sustainable this

Post by griffin » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:04 am

OK, so the sustainable discussion has been beaten worse than a dead horse. My camp uses a very quiet, very fuel efficient generator. We used less then 10 gallons last year. The question I have seems to be surrounded but never covered by this discussion. And that is how effective are solar panels. I don't really understand voltage/ampage/wattage enough to decipher what is going on.

Here's what we want:
We have no problem running the generator at night, when we are using lights and music. But during the day, sometimes we just want a little music playing, without starting up the generator. Not a huge sound system, just something playing to cut through the stark silence of burning man (that's a joke, I don't want to start some side thread about how unsilent burning man is). Anyway, we came up with the idea of using a 12volt car battery during the day to run a small stereo, then charge the battery at night with the generator, since it would be running anyway.

Does anybody know, how long such a battery will run a typical less then 100 watt stereo? AND, how long will it take the generator to charge such a battery. AND, how many watts will charging the battery suck from the 1500watt generator.

Or

Would a 65watt solar panel, be able to run a stereo all day? Or do those panels just charge batteries which would then run the stereo for only a few hours? Or could I charge the car battery from above with the solar panel, and have two batteries, and just rotate them every day?

The panels that I am looking at can be found on the costco website by searching for "solar" if anybody is interested in this question.

I'm really confused by all this electrical stuff, so if anybody has any knowledge that can help clarify things, I'd appreciate it.
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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:08 pm

I just run my car stereo and that's plenty enough sound for myself and maybe my next-tent neighbour. Every two or three days I turn on the engine to charge from the alternator and give 'er a good goose with the portable power supply at the end of the week if it won't crank. I also installed one of those $20 Coleman solar battery topper-uppers in my car a couple years ago and never had to haul out the power supply again. This is in addition to running three strings of faerie lights off an inverter plugged into my accessory. That always worked fine for me. If you have a small camp, that should be plenty. I've never had a gennie and the 65-watt solar panel might be okay for a bigger camp structure, but if you're just a handful of tents you can do plenty with just your car battery and the Coleman solar panel on the dashboard.
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

elf's sword
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...

Post by elf's sword » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:13 pm

did an internship with these people:
http://www.solarliving.org/index.cfm

they could clear up all your solar panel questions

i recommend using them as a resource

elf's ride
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...

Post by elf's ride » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:18 pm

check out that shirtless hippy guy at solfest X:

http://www.solarliving.org/images/solfe ... nt/117.jpg

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the fire elf
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Post by the fire elf » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:21 pm

(i bet he's stoned)
instantiate vacuous truth

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Kacey
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Archology

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