new post about damage to playa. BM own people agree with us

Paradox Plaid · Post by **Paradox Plaid** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:53 pm

we're all environmental terrorists secretly disguised as a group who cares. we're hell bent on world destruction through radical paradoxical measures designed to confuse and distract the authorities into thinking we're just drug fiends. unavowedly we're meeting underneath the man in a secret cave inventing a conspiracy that will shock the earth: organized chaos to create destruction through conservation. first the playa, next the salars, followed by sabkhas, vloers, faydah, takirs, until finally the kavirs. when we're finished there won't be anything except endorheic lakes that exist permanently, most changing size and shape dramatically over time, often becoming dramatically smaller (or breaking into several smaller parts) during the dry season. hmm...

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:20 pm

Kinetic IV wrote: there's only certain places I'll post, especially if it's negative.

Yeah I`m kinda kicking myself for being drawn into these non-issue threads....or at least they aren`t issues to me.
But, I can`t help but weigh in on how ironic and useless these little pissing contests are...
...and before you know it lines are being drawn in the proverbial sand....
...and "I" suddenly become "they".
It would be nice to just walk away somehow,.. but the thread keeps popping up under "my posts" and you just can`t help but peek in to see what twittery is going on....can you? And of course the never-ending threats and reminders of the possibility that today there might actually be a scrap of cohesive evidence to prove claims on either side of this very unnecessary argument.....So I guess you (they) are stuck with me and my little intrusions until I sign in as a different user, or figure out how to set my personal defaults to ignore these threads....

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:25 pm

You touched on something on my eplaya wishlist: The ability to plonk individual threads. It would keep me out of so much trouble.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:27 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:You touched on something on my eplaya wishlist: The ability to plonk individual threads. It would keep me out of so much trouble.

Amen Brother.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:35 pm

threads like this make me imagine dragging the thread creator behind a car over said playa serpents and MOOP.

but, hey, that's just me.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:56 pm

They should be given a choice :

Death or Unga-Bunga.

then give `em:
Death by Unga-Bunga.

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:35 pm

Oh my god... They're covering the hillsides in dust.

DUST I TELL YOU.. DUST!!!

Oh the humanity. Oh the horror...

allanon2 · Post by **allanon2** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:57 pm

TheJudge wrote:Oh my god... They're covering the hillsides in dust.

DUST I TELL YOU.. DUST!!!

Oh the humanity. Oh the horror...

they are both particles.
they both dont belogn in the air.

the power plant will do its best to keep there dust in but does BMORG? if we did the numbers i bet the power plant will put less matrial in the air over its entire life than one BM event does in one year.

some will say that the coal particles from the power plant are worse than the lake bed particles. all I knwo is that I dont want to inhale either.

we have to have power plants somewhere. and i think the judge agrees that a desert is a good place for it. he does not seem to care about the hillsides and lake bed much. I say we develop a clean way to crack the coal into CO and H2 and then burn or transport those. and then bury the waste back where it came from.

if the nativie americans wanted the power plant on their property very few people could or would have a issue as it was there decision. yes the particles travel outside their property but you cant do much.

the particles from the BM event travel outside your event and I do what I can and that is fight that you kepe them in. which can and will not work.

the playa is getting worse (from the words of your own BM people as the thread gives proof about) and I will do my danrdest (sp) to try to mitiagate the damage.

ttyl
rex

RegRad · Post by **RegRad** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:01 am

Allanon2
"the power plant will do its best to keep there dust in but does BMORG? if we did the numbers i bet the power plant will put less matrial in the air over its entire life than one BM event does in one year."

Seriously this is a crock... your have now let your ass do the talking for you.....wait you have always done that!

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:20 am

For anyone coming in on Jungo Road, the BRC dust plume is noticeable 50 miles away. This isn't bullshit, it's verifiable fact that ANYONE with reasonable vision can see first hand when you drive in. Or leave BRC and head North to 12 Mile and then head Northeast. You can't deny the plume.

Now any plume coming from a powerplant will most likely be studied...I know the powerplants around the KC Metroplex have had their plumes studied and mapped out for various wind conditions. It's not unreasonable to assume that the Granite Fox project would receive the same scrutiny or more...after all Utah has made comments about the plume so they are aware of the potential problem. Anyway there's some fire behind the smoke here, don't dismiss the ideas presented based on past behaviors of the poster. I used to be one of those launching the attacks. That changed when I saw it for myself...studies can be altered to back the objectives of the people funding it. My own eyes don't usually tell me lies so I believe what I see. And that plume is real.

RegRad · Post by **RegRad** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:50 pm

Yes the plume is "Real" , it has most likely been happening for thousands and thousands of years as the sands turn, the high winds blow, and more recently the people race and camp on it. Is it going to affect the world? Is it going to give us all lung cancer? Should we drop our shit and run a far away as we can?
Christ. The playa will be there after you all rot away and the power plant turns to dust itself.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:20 pm

Environmental awareness begins with you and things that are local to you. Regarding the dust plume the BLM is already aware of the dust problems and as part of the stips requires mitigation measures. If the plume expands more mitigation measures may be required. So this may not impact the world or give us lung cancer but it could certainly impact the event we love. And for that reason it's worth paying attention to. If you want to ignore it go ahead. With the permit coming up for renewal some people won't ignore it and since burners generate it, why not have burners work together to address it? Or do you want outsiders or even people from Washington dictating future permit stips? It could come down to that but history shows burners have identified similar problems and worked together to find answers. The dust plume can be handled the same way....or so I hope.

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:27 pm

Rex, you're not serious, are you?

Coal combustion creates stuff like carbon dioxide, sulphur oxide and nitrogen oxide.

Playa dust kicked up by vehicles, people and the wind does not contain carcinogens, toxins, or radioactivity. At worst, it makes your car dirty. That's about it.

I'll take a dust devil over a black-soot-belching smokestack any day of the week.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:48 pm

Granted powerplant pollution is 100X nastier than playa dust but airborne particulates are still a problem. The EPA is working on increasing awareness of the problem. Now I'm at work so I don't have my cite list at hand...but a quick Google search comes up with a few things of interest:

http://www2.envmed.rochester.edu/envmed ... exPMC.html
http://www.earthjustice.org/news/display.html?ID=248

Counterpoint:
http://www.cato.org/dailys/1-21-97.html
http://www.junkscience.com/foxnews/fn080400.htm

Now these are absolutely weak, no make that pathetic sites. But dust is dust and frankly if I lived downwind from the playa I'd be bitching about this. Now Badger may come in with his background on soil and the playa in particular and rip this apart. If he does, so be it, I'll accept that. But that fine particulate dust goes far beyond the event site and it's worthy of paying attention to...who knows someone monitoring air quality along the Wasatch Front may say that playa dust is showing up in their meters...and then you've got a mess. </soapbox>

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:03 pm

Are you guys fucking nuts? Have you ever seen the playa on an average weekend? There are people damned near FLYING across that playa with dust plumes as big as a BRC dust storm behind them for miles. And those people drive at 70+ MPH on the playa all summer long. One week of people at burning man driving at 5mph is nothing.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:47 pm

they are both particles.
they both dont belogn in the air.

God, this is great! At this point asking for cites is akin to getting back in the pen and wrestling the pig. Still, I'd ask our informed critic explain how the dust got there in the first place? Aside from sediment load from the melting of two distinct glaciers in the last 10,000 years one of the other primary means of sediment delivery was dust 'intercept' by Lake Lahanton. That is, eastward blowing dust caught at the surface of the lake captured particles which eventually made their way down to the bottom of the lake. In three instances that I know of said sediment extends below 7000 meters.

Rex, your logic and grasp of the science and the natural history of the Black Rock are as impoverished as your ability to elucidate your mis-informed ramblings. I'm wondering if you write this shite using crayons and a big pencil before you type this crap to the board?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:20 pm

Ok, we get a history lesson. That's it?

It doesn't mean a tinker's damn where the dust originated from. The plume being stirred up is happening in 2005. And since the 2005 permit is based around stips that originated with the 2003 EA for the event, stipulation #18 comes into play. Here's that stip, if you want the cite go dig for it.

18. Fugitive Dust.
a. Water without additives will be used for fugitive dust control. No chemicals will be used to control fugitive dust.
b. Fugitive dust suppression efforts on roads will be performed at a minimum of once daily bywatering to keep fugitive road dust at a minimum during event operation and during and afterevent closure.
c. Fugitive dust suppression efforts by watering will be used on the airport runway during the event as needed.
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Page 3
3d. Before the final inspection, all disturbed areas within the event site will be watered, including the airstrip, and within the trash/security fence to fix fugitive dust to the playa surface.
e. Water trucks used for dust control will carry identification stating “Non-Potable Water”

Rant all you want but a plume visible from 50 miles away the week of the event that anyone with 20/40 vision can see driving down Jungo originates from the confines of BRC indicates there is a fugitive dust problem. People can post all the rants and histronics they want, the facts trump it all and warrant the cry of BULLSHIT.

So...if you're going to rip into people don't be picking on Rex. You better target me...and like I said I didn't give a rat's ass about this until I drove out from 12 mile and saw it for myself. I'm from Missouri the Show Me State and you have to show me the problem. Well I sure as hell saw a massive plume coming from BRC, and I have no problem challenging anyone armed with that kind of info going in. I saw it. I drove under the plume. I know where it originated from. In my mind there's no question. And so I won't be backing down on this.

And anyone saying this is a non issue should remember that if....if the permit is challenged this year every stip is a potential target. When the opposition can simply drive along 447 or up Jungo Road and see this for themselves....

So the last thing to say is we are making the problem...instead of ranting let's acknowledge it and find a way or propose solutions to it. Like increasing the flow out of the water truck for example. On an average day two water trucks drove down Hysteria past 8:30. The morning truck barely put out enough water to cover 3/4 of the surface and with minimal coverage. The evening pass was heavy, extended beyond the road by a good foot or more, and actually knocked the dust down. Stand there and look and you can SEE it happen right in front of you. A solution is to get more from the existing dust abatement services.... but maybe there's other things to be done. Are there other ideas out there? Let's hear 'em!

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:34 pm

geekster wrote:There are people damned near FLYING across that playa with dust plumes as big as a BRC dust storm behind them for miles. And those people drive at 70+ MPH on the playa all summer long.

With homade racers, its at least twice that speed. The salt flats are some of the only other places where you can do it without debris or other obstacles taking your life.

RegRad · Post by **RegRad** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:25 pm

I just got done checking the Satellite view of the playa on google... There is not one section not covered by tire tracks.... I looked as long as I could stand to search it. I don't know why Burning Man is being centered as the root of the problem. We are not there now... Is there still a dust plume?
Of course there is. The sloution would be to not let anyone on it ever. Then it would settle down by a little bit, but not by much. I mean it is covered in dust and the dust will blow around...... FOREVER! Sad that BM could lose a permit because the wind will blow and the dust will fly.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:38 pm

Yeah there's going to be plumes all throughout the year. Yep, I totally agree with you. But...I'm looking at this from the permit angle, from the narrow view of that one magical week per year when eventually 35,000 of us get into that one space and kick up a bunch of dust.

Someone looks at that stip I posted, then drives out there and sees that and you could have an instant and definitely verifiable objection. Some of it can be mitigated with a bit more watering. Now that might mean hitting up frogpond.....yeah that's not good either but it's a matter of striking a balance. You're screwed no matter what you do but in this case after seeing the water truck putting out a pissy stream of water I'm thinking a bit more can be done with what's already out there. And if the stip is challenged and it can be documented that an improved plan is in the works it blunts the criticism....allowing the process to maybe move on to something else. Plus anyone down range or however far those small particles end up won't have to breathe as much of the stuff. This can be a win-win if done just a bit better. Plus if the ORG is paying for the dust abatement anyway, why not get the max benefit out of it?

Yeah my logic may be flawed on how to get it done, but I want to have an event to attend in 2006. So any weak spots in the permit process that can be shored up...well...it's worth taking time to think about what can be done. That's all I'm trying to do here. Be proactive, keep the event strong and keep BLM from stipulating it to death.

Jordan 10-E · Post by **Jordan 10-E** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:39 pm

Kinetic, sounds like you could come up with a hundred more stipulations than the BLM ever will.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:05 am

I don't think Kinetic has ever seen the playa on a July weekend.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:13 am

I can see that I won't get anywhere with this group so it's time to change tactics. I appreciate the people that "get it" and have offered support.

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:31 am

Its DUST! Not radioactive waste, not toxic smoke, not chloroflorocarbons. If you banned everyone from driving on the playa altogether, you would STILL have dust devils flying around, kicking up particulates thousands of feet into the atmosphere.

And what about US Gypsum? That must cause some fine particulate matter to fly around in the breeze. I wonder how the folks of Empire deal with it. Oh right. It keeps the people of Empire employed. I guess they dont mind too much.

Let's face facts, folks. The playa is a dusty place. If you live near a playa, you are going to be dealing with dust. If you dont like the dust, move.

Seriously. This is the most ridiculous argument I've ever read on the e-playa.

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:31 pm

What am I missing here, Kinetic?

That the exodus dust plume is large? Yeah. It is.

That the activities of BRC pulverize the top layer of compacted dust on the playa? Yeah. They do.

That this is somehow more damaging than in the past, or than normal use of the playa is? No. You haven't come close to showing that.

and

If it really is something you are worried about, as evidenced by your squawking here, what are we to make of your intended return?

...a playa character I had fun with this year and who will be back in 2006...

Unless you plan on outfitting us all with hoverbelts by next Labor Day, your continued plans to attend makes you a hypocrite.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:36 pm

Don, quit skimming. You missed my suggestions on what to do about the problem. Like better utilization of the water trucks for example. It wasn't just squawking, at least I proposed a solution.

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:43 pm

Spray more water on the playa, and we won't be pulverizing the dust out there with our activity? What happens when that oh-so-surface water evaporates within hours? It turns to dust.

Those aren't solutions, at best they are a salve for someone in denial.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:52 pm

Hey Don, is Badger feeding you things to say over there or are you thinking for yourself? Anyway the water truck is simply one suggestion...I have others. And you STILL missed part of my focus along with some other things. What do I have to do, spoonfeed you information so you can process it? Anyway if the cabal is through having it's fun for the day, don't you have a new board to be fine tuning?

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:57 pm

Yeah, Badger is giving me all my words today. How convenient of you to forgo discussion of the topic and instead make it about personalities and paranoia.

What were the other ideas? Help from alien hippies?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:02 pm

Well.... site placement comes to mind....perhaps it's time to consider a different location farther out on the playa. And not only for dust abatement or surface healing measures.

I have other ideas but I'm not speaking up on them until I can get back out there in a couple of weeks and see some things I still question first hand. I'm hoping that will be done by the end of October.

Don, in regards to the personalities and paranoia comment I have every reason to be leery of certain people from the 3playa. I still have people that like me over there and they disagree with how things went. But there's still a few that no matter what I do, if I died tomorrow and they stood over the autopsy table to see it for themselves would still not believe things. With that kind of mindset around...yeah I have reason to be a little defensive. Coupled with the fact some things may be reoccurring....I'm very gunshy right now.

Anyway let's move this back on track, if you or anyone else has an issue with me PM's work well.

new post about damage to playa. BM own people agree with us

here's a post you can quote

the judge how is dust differnt than coal particles?