smaler would be better

I am the River you saw Ye · Post by **I am the River you saw Ye** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:49 pm

Limit tickets. 30 000
Shut the gate on Tuesday. build a community
Real trade, real barter. No crappy beads.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:04 am

Why is 30,000 the magic number for you? What about the people who were going when it was only 10,000 people. What about the people who say that Burning Man got too big in 1998 with 15,000 people?

We said anybody can do this. Anybody at all. There was some dissension in the ranks a couple of years ago. There was debate that went on whether we wanted uncool people. And, frankly, I don't know who "uncool people" are. I mean anybody's cool who is authentically expressing something. And, as a result, our demographics are out of this world. First there was us and then there came a younger crowd. And then there came sort of a middle-aged crowd. Then the RVs showed up. And then people's parents started showing up. And then the children started showing up. And now it's everybody.

- Larry Harvey, from Monk Magazine 1999

http://www.monk.com/display.php?p=People&id=39

Cosworth Magellan · Post by **Cosworth Magellan** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:01 am

And so what of my friends who work very hard to come to Burning Man every year, but due to other commitments cannot get there until wednesday? I suppose it doesn't matter that they spend the rest of the week serving free hot meals and drinks to everyone who happens by our camp, and give away all of our extra supplies to people who forgot that important bit of rebar / tent stake / 50' of rope. They should demand payment for it now? Actually, as far as you're concerned it sounds like they shouldn't show up at all. I fail to see how that does anything to build community, especially a radically inclusive one.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:22 am

If it's small you want, start your own event. Just sayin'.

I wonder how much of the growth is "pushed" by actions of the llc and how much is "natural" friends telling friends, news reports, people finding on the internet.

Any attempt to make a cut off is going to leave out some worthies. Capping the admission at X number of tickets, will sooner or later lead to a black market of scalping. Then you get scalpers buying early, doubling the price making a huge profit and none of that money goes to the event and all sorts of people who can spend $250 will get replaced by people who can spend $500 and have a huge sense of entitlement because they have.

What if the growth isn't caused by the actions of the llc, but they can only hope to do thier best with the situation?

What if cutting down on attendence led to the event's implosion?

Cosworth Magellan · Post by **Cosworth Magellan** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:53 am

I wonder how much of the growth is "pushed" by actions of the llc and how much is "natural" friends telling friends, news reports, people finding on the internet.

I think a lot of growth comes from people telling their friends, or simply dragging newbies along. I've probably been responsible for taking at least 10 or 15 newbies along over the years, of which two or three turned into repeat attendees. I usually ask any virgins I meet about how they found the event, and they usually say something along the lines of "a friend told me I MUST go" or "I'm here with a friend who came last year." Case in point - our most excellent neighbors this year were comprised of 1 2nd-year burner and about 12 virgins. He brought 12 fucking virgins with him. And they were all excellent.

Of course the event is so well-known in the Bay Area these days that I'm sure quite a few people simply decide to venture out to see what's going on. I have a feeling that a lot of them don't return.

What if the growth isn't caused by the actions of the llc, but they can only hope to do thier best with the situation?

I've no doubt the LLC wants growth, but it seems like they want sustainable growth. If 100,000 people decided to show up next year, it'd overwhelm the infrastructure and probably lead to the event being shut down due to overcrowding/health/sanitary concerns. Things like the porta potties, numbers of emergency service workers, etc. need to be planned in advance.

Edit: $£"!%$"£

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:16 pm

Cosworth Magellan wrote:I've no doubt the LLC wants growth, but it seems like they want sustainable growth.

Not sure about the 2nd part, but agree with the first. I just don't think that the growth or slowing down of growth is very much under their control. Except for the growth that's gonna come with that damn Discovery Channel segment. That's out of the bottle now, but didn't have to happen.

But then, I'm one of those people who tends to think that history just happens in a messy way and then people put it into order retroactively.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:47 pm

Here's a sketchy idea, so feel free to shoot holes in it.
The Ice Queen signed up people to come in early and decorate CampArctica. When I was taking down the minimal decorations, I commented on the quantity of stuff that she had that was unused.

She told me that not one of the people signed up had appeared. I commented that it was strange that most of the ice people had showed up but none of the decorating people. I speculated that maybe the kind of people who are good at decorating were also the kind of people who are flaky. That went over like a turd in a punchbowl.

But, think about it. People who are rigid, disciplined, punctual are less likely to be creative. I got my fill of "cubism" in Germany and learned to appreciate "friviolity"

If you cut off ticket sales and closed the gate early, might that fall squarely on the people who are organizationaly challenged? Might these same people also be the ones who bring a lot of creativity. I know that the big art installations are months in the planning and weeks in the execution. I'm talking about the smaller efforts. The little things that you see everywhere. The movable feast for the eyes.
Dan

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:05 pm

Limit tickets

go to a regional

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:04 pm

I could see no ticket sales at the gate. That's how we're doing our regional to help keep the yahoos out.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:06 pm

Oh I just thought of a problem with limiting ticket sales: limited number of tickets = scalpers = people will buy up a shitload of tickets when ticket sales start knowing that there are a finite number. Result = astronomical ticket prices on ebay.

I still do like the idea of no ticket sales at the gate or ending it on Wed. or only letting someone *with* a ticket buy a ticket for someone else (e.g., your friend shows up late without a ticket, they could still get in).

Fat SAM · Post by **Fat SAM** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:33 pm

<<<<<<<Sock Puppet>>>>>>>

Come on..."His name is Robert Paulson." This is the same thread that got in everybody's underwear last year and I bet the year before.

Post by **Eric** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:56 pm

DallasPlaya wrote:I still do like the idea of no ticket sales at the gate or ending it on Wed. or only letting someone *with* a ticket buy a ticket for someone else (e.g., your friend shows up late without a ticket, they could still get in).

How does your friend find you to "vouch" for their ticket if you're already inside BRC?

Serendipity: I had a friend in '03 who really wanted to go but couldn't because of commitments he had made. On Tuesday he found out that he could go- found a ride out on Weds and bought a ticket at the gate, and then found his boyfriends camp, surprising the hell out of him (and us) and making the week that much better. The look of joy on everyones face was priceless.

All these plans for limiting tickets completely block any serendipity from happening. People who really want to go sometimes can't due to reasons beyond their control. If things at the last minute change so they can make it, why should they be blocked because "someone" doesn't like ticket sales at the gate, or wants to close the gate early. All these reasons sound pretty damn selfish to me- "I think my event will be better if..."

Want smaller- follow the suggestions already posted- go to a regional or start your own event. Go to "Fourth of Ju-playa". Just don't limit other peoples access so that you can have your dream-size event.

Dallas- this rant wasn't directed at you, your post just had a convenient lead in for my thoughts!

I am the River you saw Ye · Post by **I am the River you saw Ye** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:14 am

I didn't know this was a thread last year otherewise I would have considered it answered. I'm not sure I want to push through with this point. Wanted some feedback, surely. I think that there are steps we can make towords making it a better and better year. As a course of nature, things grow. All things change. Just wondering how to prune the vines. How about a year of attendance ticket? The more years you go, the cheaper the ticket.
Yes...my name IS Robert Paulson

Magikal · Post by **Magikal** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:25 am

can't sit still wrote:Here's a sketchy idea, so feel free to shoot holes in it.
The Ice Queen signed up people to come in early and decorate CampArctica. When I was taking down the minimal decorations, I commented on the quantity of stuff that she had that was unused.

She told me that not one of the people signed up had appeared. I commented that it was strange that most of the ice people had showed up but none of the decorating people. I speculated that maybe the kind of people who are good at decorating were also the kind of people who are flaky. That went over like a turd in a punchbowl.

But, think about it. People who are rigid, disciplined, punctual are less likely to be creative. I got my fill of "cubism" in Germany and learned to appreciate "friviolity"

If you cut off ticket sales and closed the gate early, might that fall squarely on the people who are organizationaly challenged? Might these same people also be the ones who bring a lot of creativity. I know that the big art installations are months in the planning and weeks in the execution. I'm talking about the smaller efforts. The little things that you see everywhere. The movable feast for the eyes.
Dan

You know, that makes a good bit of sense?!? By the very nature of it, those who show up @ 12:01 Monday morning are NOT going to be the people who come up with the MIND-BLOWING art.

And speaking for myself, I kinda LIKE how big the event gets. Have been to a few regionals, and found them wanting. There is just something so cool about knowing you CANNOT possibly see everything and do everything, not in a week, anyway. Hell, make it twice as big and last twice as long! Sure gets my vote...