Solar is not an option for 24x7 large scale energy production. I still ask, how many solar plants would you need to provide the power for a steel mill 24x7? What would be the environmental cost? Destruction of many square miles of desert surface habitat notwithstanding, you are still going to need one hell of a bank of batteries to provide power at night. What do you do with all those batteries when they need replacing? What are they made from? How do you get those materials? Again, people are very short sighted when it comes to solar power. How many open pit lead mines and smelters would it require to support a large solar infrastructure.on 1/11/90 an explosion and fire took place in the LUZ company's 80 MW solar plant in Barstow, Calif., which had been on line for less than two weeks. A heating unit containing Ther-minol, a synthetic oil used as the working fluid at a nominal 735 degrees F, caught fire. And this¾news flash !--is the first I ever heard that solar plants use a combustible liquid as the working fluid. (After the Browns Ferry fire hundreds of miles of cable had to be reinstalled in nuclear plants to make even insulation fire-retardant; the working fluid is water.) Four hundred plant workers had to be evacuated, two were hospitalized. The fire burned for more than 5 hours and sent smoke to a height of 2,500 ft in the air, causing damage estimated at $10 million. Yet the news was reported only once on CNN, and on none of the radio networks (I had to fish it out by searching UP dispatches and am now using a small clipping from the Los Angeles News). Just like TMI, eh?
Weeks later (2/20/90) Forbes published an article on the plant, gushing unmitigated praise without breathing a word about the accident, though in the past it rarely missed an opportunity to knock nuclear power for much smaller incidents. Please under-stand that I am not knocking solar power, least of all when it is operated by a private company (though taking advantage of the taxpayer subsidy provided by federal and state legislation, perhaps even¾I am not sure about this¾receiving direct DoE funds). But I will knock Forbes's sleazy reporting in comparing it with a nuclear plant. What few meaningful numbers it contains tell their own story, if you can read between the lines. The 80 MW plant sits on 810 acres, which means that for a usual (coal or nuclear) unit of 1,000 MW it would take up 16 square miles instead of 25 acres for the same peak power; if it were to reach the capacity power of a regular plant, it would have to store energy to be able to provide that power at any time when it is in demand. That would mean raising its average output by a factor of at least 6, which brings us to an area of around 100 square miles. They have that kind of area in the Mojave desert; and I hope Forbes finances the transmission line to New York to take advantage of it.
Coal Fire Plant near Gerlach
-
geekster
- Posts: 4865
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
- Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
- Contact:
I was living in Southern California when Solar One exploded.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
-
can't sit still
- Posts: 4645
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
- Location: SoCal
Geekster, nice to see you. I sure as hell can't have a debate with myself. I posted on "Solar One" in Dagget. It has a tower and mirrors. The plants in Barstow use ground level troughs with the oil pipe at the center focal-point. Both plants were prone to problems from hot-spots. That's why Solar One changed to sodium. The mirrors were computer controlled so they could adjust instantly. The troughs were uncontrolled. They dumped all their heat to the pipe and depended on luck. The trough installation requires much more area than the heliostat installation. I don't know the sunlight power densities right off the top of my head. I can't tell you the acre/kilowatt output. I rode around the oil installations on a dirt bike. They're really spread out.
""Solar is not an option for 24x7 large scale energy production. I still ask, how many solar plants would you need to provide the power for a steel mill 24x7? What would be the environmental cost? Destruction of many square miles of desert surface habitat notwithstanding, you are still going to need one hell of a bank of batteries to provide power at night. What do you do with all those batteries when they need replacing? What are they made from? How do you get those materials? Again, people are very short sighted when it comes to solar power. How many open pit lead mines and smelters would it require to support a large solar infrastructure""
Whoaaaa, we all know that batteries are NOT the solution. I mentioned hydroelectric for night time. I never said a word about batteries.
You're right that solar plants would need a lot of area. Have you driven accross eastern OR, WA.? Combined with a lot of Montana and Wyoming, there is a lot of really boring landscape. Don't forget Texas.
I think that the Heliostat was beautiful. It would give shade to the antelope.
Aluminum smelting is an electrical prosess [Hall process] Tool steel is reduced electricly, but the majority of steel is reduced in the Bessemer process with coal. The mill itself is of course--electric. Coal mines aren't exactly enviornment friendly.
The Solar One plant used a huge heat sink similar to heavy asphalt. They stored heat in the asphalt during the day and dumped heat to generate in the night. Gene said that they had only 4 employees for the whole plant.
They used a Waukeshaw generator to aim the mirrors in the morn. There were no batts except to start the gen.
Europe is really getting into wind. Vesta says that there is enough wind capacity in Nebraska to power the whole country. DON'T hold me to this. I can't investigate right this min.
There are other ways to store energy. Instead of charging batts, you can compress air. It's not great but it works.
During the day they generate hydro power at Wishon res in Cal. During the night they pump the water back up to Edison lake with surplus power. Next day,,,they run the same water back to Wishon. There's all kinds of interesting stuff.
Dan
Drunken miners: More fun than a dead canary
""Solar is not an option for 24x7 large scale energy production. I still ask, how many solar plants would you need to provide the power for a steel mill 24x7? What would be the environmental cost? Destruction of many square miles of desert surface habitat notwithstanding, you are still going to need one hell of a bank of batteries to provide power at night. What do you do with all those batteries when they need replacing? What are they made from? How do you get those materials? Again, people are very short sighted when it comes to solar power. How many open pit lead mines and smelters would it require to support a large solar infrastructure""
Whoaaaa, we all know that batteries are NOT the solution. I mentioned hydroelectric for night time. I never said a word about batteries.
You're right that solar plants would need a lot of area. Have you driven accross eastern OR, WA.? Combined with a lot of Montana and Wyoming, there is a lot of really boring landscape. Don't forget Texas.
I think that the Heliostat was beautiful. It would give shade to the antelope.
Aluminum smelting is an electrical prosess [Hall process] Tool steel is reduced electricly, but the majority of steel is reduced in the Bessemer process with coal. The mill itself is of course--electric. Coal mines aren't exactly enviornment friendly.
The Solar One plant used a huge heat sink similar to heavy asphalt. They stored heat in the asphalt during the day and dumped heat to generate in the night. Gene said that they had only 4 employees for the whole plant.
They used a Waukeshaw generator to aim the mirrors in the morn. There were no batts except to start the gen.
Europe is really getting into wind. Vesta says that there is enough wind capacity in Nebraska to power the whole country. DON'T hold me to this. I can't investigate right this min.
There are other ways to store energy. Instead of charging batts, you can compress air. It's not great but it works.
During the day they generate hydro power at Wishon res in Cal. During the night they pump the water back up to Edison lake with surplus power. Next day,,,they run the same water back to Wishon. There's all kinds of interesting stuff.
Dan
Drunken miners: More fun than a dead canary
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
-
Kinetic IV
- Posts: 2977
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:34 pm
- Location: Kyiv, Ukraine as of 10/27/06
Hydroelectric pumpback? Oh please, talk about a colossal boondoggle. I don't think so.
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1996/ai96145.pdf
See Page 33 under the heading of the "Truman Project". So how do you like your fish? Will "puree" form work cause if they used pumpback the Osage River practically turned red with blood and fish guts. That's not hyperbole, I stood there and saw it myself. How about seeing a project cut from 160,000 kilowatts down to 53,000...all on your dime as a taxpayer after the public said no freakin way are we going to tolerate a fishkill on such a large scale? Idea dismissed. Next?
Moving on to the open spaces initiative of sticking massive plants in a "boring" landscape, there's people who think the Black Rock Desert is boring too. Perhaps there's a way to utilize it and the yearly cycle of flooding to generate energy? I know it's far fetched but technology gets better every day...and hey it's worthless space (thankfully not everyone feels that way), let's sacrifice it for our power needs. Some people happen to like those wide open spaces and we still don't fully understand the complex interactions our changes bring to ecosystems like that. Don't be so hasty to give up our wild spaces for power production without treading carefully.
And let's put up massive wind farms in Kansas and Nebraska. Those brown wheat fields would look better with splashes of blood and bird guts from migratory waterfowl smacking into those massive blades. Wind is not the "clean" power everyone makes it out to be. It's an eyesore, then you've got all those cables to run to the different turbines, multiple distribution points, and then the long run of distribution lines to distant points...all of which impacts the environment...but nobody looks at that, all they see is it harnesses the air. Yeah, but at what cost?
As for solar, imagine having solar and living about 100 miles inland from the gulf coast the past few weeks. I hope you have plenty of fuel for that backup generator or else it's been a dark time in the bayou for you.
So why am I ranting? I want VIABLE alternatives. And so far I'm not seeing ANY that beats coal, nuclear, and CNG peaking plants despite their flaws.
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1996/ai96145.pdf
See Page 33 under the heading of the "Truman Project". So how do you like your fish? Will "puree" form work cause if they used pumpback the Osage River practically turned red with blood and fish guts. That's not hyperbole, I stood there and saw it myself. How about seeing a project cut from 160,000 kilowatts down to 53,000...all on your dime as a taxpayer after the public said no freakin way are we going to tolerate a fishkill on such a large scale? Idea dismissed. Next?
Moving on to the open spaces initiative of sticking massive plants in a "boring" landscape, there's people who think the Black Rock Desert is boring too. Perhaps there's a way to utilize it and the yearly cycle of flooding to generate energy? I know it's far fetched but technology gets better every day...and hey it's worthless space (thankfully not everyone feels that way), let's sacrifice it for our power needs. Some people happen to like those wide open spaces and we still don't fully understand the complex interactions our changes bring to ecosystems like that. Don't be so hasty to give up our wild spaces for power production without treading carefully.
And let's put up massive wind farms in Kansas and Nebraska. Those brown wheat fields would look better with splashes of blood and bird guts from migratory waterfowl smacking into those massive blades. Wind is not the "clean" power everyone makes it out to be. It's an eyesore, then you've got all those cables to run to the different turbines, multiple distribution points, and then the long run of distribution lines to distant points...all of which impacts the environment...but nobody looks at that, all they see is it harnesses the air. Yeah, but at what cost?
As for solar, imagine having solar and living about 100 miles inland from the gulf coast the past few weeks. I hope you have plenty of fuel for that backup generator or else it's been a dark time in the bayou for you.
So why am I ranting? I want VIABLE alternatives. And so far I'm not seeing ANY that beats coal, nuclear, and CNG peaking plants despite their flaws.
K-IV
~~~~
Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!
~~~~
Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!
-
geekster
- Posts: 4865
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
- Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
- Contact:
Hydroelectric is also damaging to the environment, it practically destroys the ecosystems in the rivers where it is installed. I would much rather see them tear down the dams and build modern nuke plants. Not the 1950's and 1960's designes, the new 1990's designed ones that use about 20% of the moving parts and have passive safety systems that can run without backup power.
Also, again you talk about "all that open land" but for every meter of solar panel you put there, you destroy a meter of habitat. Those plants and animals have adapted to the land just like it is. When you start creating that much shade, you start killing plants and the animals that depend on them. What happens when a heard of wild grazing animals in eastern Oregon happens upon a huge field of solar panels or mirrors?
When you can build a solar plant of any kind that offers the 24x7 power generating capacity of even a medium sized coal plant that impact the environment less than current construction plants do (and I don't want to hear any stats about what the "average" plant produces, I want you to compare to actual plants that have been constructed in the past 5 years) then we can start to talk serious. Solar is absolutely fine for niche and peaker production but is useless for baseline production. Baseline production would be what you need to power a city in the dead of night of an average temerature in, say, October or March. And I am not just talking about residential power needs, industry operates 24x7.
Yes, much can be done that isn't being done to reduce energy requirements. Every time I see a black roof I cringe at all the energy being wasted. I have no problem with PV panels installed on buildings, for example. But if you want to talk about gigawatt production capacity, solar just isn't going to do it.
Also, again you talk about "all that open land" but for every meter of solar panel you put there, you destroy a meter of habitat. Those plants and animals have adapted to the land just like it is. When you start creating that much shade, you start killing plants and the animals that depend on them. What happens when a heard of wild grazing animals in eastern Oregon happens upon a huge field of solar panels or mirrors?
When you can build a solar plant of any kind that offers the 24x7 power generating capacity of even a medium sized coal plant that impact the environment less than current construction plants do (and I don't want to hear any stats about what the "average" plant produces, I want you to compare to actual plants that have been constructed in the past 5 years) then we can start to talk serious. Solar is absolutely fine for niche and peaker production but is useless for baseline production. Baseline production would be what you need to power a city in the dead of night of an average temerature in, say, October or March. And I am not just talking about residential power needs, industry operates 24x7.
Yes, much can be done that isn't being done to reduce energy requirements. Every time I see a black roof I cringe at all the energy being wasted. I have no problem with PV panels installed on buildings, for example. But if you want to talk about gigawatt production capacity, solar just isn't going to do it.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
-
can't sit still
- Posts: 4645
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
- Location: SoCal
Coal Fire Plant near Gerlach
You have a decidedly "green" slant. I say screw the lizards out in the desert. We don't need to preserve a gazillion acres of sagebrush.
There's too many of us. Something is going to lose out. PG&E says that bird electrocutions cause a billion in losses. Sure windpower makes it worse. 94% of all raptor deaths in the US are in Altamont pass. Something's going to suffer. We need to find whatever causes the least LONG TERM damage.
So we destroy habitat in the desert and kill birds in wind farms.What if adding heat to the biosphere causes Louisiana to sink beneath the waves. That kills habitat, birds, fish etc.
We need to minimise the destruction where we can,,,but it's unavoidable.
You talk about coal like the emmisions don't exist. You talk about nukes like they have cleanup and decommisioning all taken care of. I'd rather kill lizards and antelope than chance a radioactive contamination from waste disposal that has to be maintained for centuries at minimum.
I don't agree with you that wind farms and the like are ugly. It's a matter of viewpoint. When the Eiffel Tower was erected, they called it ugly. What makes the Golden Gate bridge attractive and a wind tower ugly?
We may find out in the future that avian species extinction is nothing compared to global havoc caused by CO2 emissions and global warming.
I'm in favor of power generation that doesn't add calories to the biosphere. Solar, wind and geothermal may turn out to be the villians of necessity. We don't have the answers.
Dan
There's too many of us. Something is going to lose out. PG&E says that bird electrocutions cause a billion in losses. Sure windpower makes it worse. 94% of all raptor deaths in the US are in Altamont pass. Something's going to suffer. We need to find whatever causes the least LONG TERM damage.
So we destroy habitat in the desert and kill birds in wind farms.What if adding heat to the biosphere causes Louisiana to sink beneath the waves. That kills habitat, birds, fish etc.
We need to minimise the destruction where we can,,,but it's unavoidable.
You talk about coal like the emmisions don't exist. You talk about nukes like they have cleanup and decommisioning all taken care of. I'd rather kill lizards and antelope than chance a radioactive contamination from waste disposal that has to be maintained for centuries at minimum.
I don't agree with you that wind farms and the like are ugly. It's a matter of viewpoint. When the Eiffel Tower was erected, they called it ugly. What makes the Golden Gate bridge attractive and a wind tower ugly?
We may find out in the future that avian species extinction is nothing compared to global havoc caused by CO2 emissions and global warming.
I'm in favor of power generation that doesn't add calories to the biosphere. Solar, wind and geothermal may turn out to be the villians of necessity. We don't have the answers.
Dan
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
-
geekster
- Posts: 4865
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
- Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
- Contact:
I believe that aaround 94% of all species that have ever existed on Earth are extinct. But in any case, it isn't my issue. I don't live there, I don't vote there so I am sure my opinion is appreciated about as much as that of someone living in Egypt when it comes to a local decision.
May people often overlook the disadvantages of their favorite whatever or fail to see the infrustructure behind what is needed to produce and dispose of it. There are many tools in the box for energy production and I believe that each tool has it's place. I also believe that as time goes by and things change, the mix of tools and the application of those tools will change too. There is a place where coal plants make sense. There is a place where solar makes sense. There is a place where wind makes sense. And there is a place for other forms too such as biomass, hydro, geothermal, etc. But I don't believe any single one of them or even a couple of them are the be all and end all of energy production. The best tool for the job should be chosen and applied and things reviewd from time to time to adjust the mix of energy sources according to what makes sense as needs and technologies develop.
Personally, I think that if you are going to put a coal plant anywhere on the planet, a place like they are proposing near Gerlach is probably as good as it gets. And for much the same reason the Burning Man is there. It will probably have the lowest direct adverse impact there on the fewest number of people possible and also, by the same token, have the greatest positive economic impact to a depressed area. In other words, it would probably be a net benefit to that community.
Modern coal plants are pretty good at removing pollutants compared to plants built only 20 years ago. We are talking about a 99% reduction of ash emissions, and 95% of sulphur emissions. Catalytic converters (selective catalytic reduction units) break down the NOx. It isn't perfectly clean, but it is a hell of a lot cleaner than it was in the recent past. I would rather see the construction of new cleaner plants than the continued operation of older, dirtier plants which seems to be the choice here. I am still of the opinion that preventing the building of such plants will result in overall dirtier air because older dirtier plants will be operated longer.
May people often overlook the disadvantages of their favorite whatever or fail to see the infrustructure behind what is needed to produce and dispose of it. There are many tools in the box for energy production and I believe that each tool has it's place. I also believe that as time goes by and things change, the mix of tools and the application of those tools will change too. There is a place where coal plants make sense. There is a place where solar makes sense. There is a place where wind makes sense. And there is a place for other forms too such as biomass, hydro, geothermal, etc. But I don't believe any single one of them or even a couple of them are the be all and end all of energy production. The best tool for the job should be chosen and applied and things reviewd from time to time to adjust the mix of energy sources according to what makes sense as needs and technologies develop.
Personally, I think that if you are going to put a coal plant anywhere on the planet, a place like they are proposing near Gerlach is probably as good as it gets. And for much the same reason the Burning Man is there. It will probably have the lowest direct adverse impact there on the fewest number of people possible and also, by the same token, have the greatest positive economic impact to a depressed area. In other words, it would probably be a net benefit to that community.
Modern coal plants are pretty good at removing pollutants compared to plants built only 20 years ago. We are talking about a 99% reduction of ash emissions, and 95% of sulphur emissions. Catalytic converters (selective catalytic reduction units) break down the NOx. It isn't perfectly clean, but it is a hell of a lot cleaner than it was in the recent past. I would rather see the construction of new cleaner plants than the continued operation of older, dirtier plants which seems to be the choice here. I am still of the opinion that preventing the building of such plants will result in overall dirtier air because older dirtier plants will be operated longer.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
-
can't sit still
- Posts: 4645
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
- Location: SoCal
Coal Fire Plant near Gerlach
Geekster,,GREAT post and you're absolutely right. We need to use the right tool for the job.
Most of what we do, we do for mankind. In a lot of ways Mother Nature is indifferent. She gets the shit kicked out of her on a regular basis. Check Vroodefort. http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/images.html
If it doesn't come from above, it comes from below. We had Thera, Krakatoa, Vesuvius,Pintabo,Chichon ad infinitum. Can't leave out Hugo and Katrina.
The earth is dynamic. Sometimes it's a shooting gallery and we're the sitting ducks.
80% of all species are beetles. They're tough and they fly. Maybe we need to adapt.
BTW, the Russians and Sadat built the Aswan high dam. They're speculating that they might have to remove it because the soil is becoming too alkali to grow most crops. They need the flooding just like the delta of ole Miss needs flooding. I traveled around Egypt and it is one of the most fascinating places that I've visited.
There are other tools in the box that show promise. The work of Bearden and Bedini and Lutec et al have to come to fruition someday.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... ndex3.html
Don't enter this site unless you have lots of time.
Dan
Most of what we do, we do for mankind. In a lot of ways Mother Nature is indifferent. She gets the shit kicked out of her on a regular basis. Check Vroodefort. http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/images.html
If it doesn't come from above, it comes from below. We had Thera, Krakatoa, Vesuvius,Pintabo,Chichon ad infinitum. Can't leave out Hugo and Katrina.
The earth is dynamic. Sometimes it's a shooting gallery and we're the sitting ducks.
80% of all species are beetles. They're tough and they fly. Maybe we need to adapt.
BTW, the Russians and Sadat built the Aswan high dam. They're speculating that they might have to remove it because the soil is becoming too alkali to grow most crops. They need the flooding just like the delta of ole Miss needs flooding. I traveled around Egypt and it is one of the most fascinating places that I've visited.
There are other tools in the box that show promise. The work of Bearden and Bedini and Lutec et al have to come to fruition someday.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... ndex3.html
Don't enter this site unless you have lots of time.
Dan
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
-
theCryptofishist
- Posts: 40312
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:28 am
- Burning Since: 2017
- Location: In Exile
News about the fine upstanding persons who wish to build the plant:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/ ... wsuit.html
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/ ... wsuit.html
The Lady with a Lamprey
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
-
theCryptofishist
- Posts: 40312
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:28 am
- Burning Since: 2017
- Location: In Exile
The article doesn't mention Fox Sempra by name, but the plant appears on the accompaning map.
The Lady with a Lamprey
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
-
can't sit still
- Posts: 4645
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
- Location: SoCal
Well, would you rather see mirrors or coal smoke??
This is supposed to be REAL efficient.
" "A solar area of 100 miles square -- a size of land that equals only nine percent of the state of Nevada -- can generate enough electricity for the entire United States." -- IAUS"
http://pesn.com/2005/08/02/9600142_IAUS_Solar/
Dan
This is supposed to be REAL efficient.
" "A solar area of 100 miles square -- a size of land that equals only nine percent of the state of Nevada -- can generate enough electricity for the entire United States." -- IAUS"
http://pesn.com/2005/08/02/9600142_IAUS_Solar/
Dan
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
-
theCryptofishist
- Posts: 40312
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:28 am
- Burning Since: 2017
- Location: In Exile
-
theCryptofishist
- Posts: 40312
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:28 am
- Burning Since: 2017
- Location: In Exile
The 2nd issue of The Granite Fox EIS project newsletter is out, and the Nevada BLM Website is still unavailable.
Most raised issues in the Scoping report:
Air Quality
Water Quality and Quantity
Impacts on wildlife and ecosystems
Alternative Energy
Impacts on Natural and Agricultural vegitation
Construction, operation noise
Land Use and Access
Cumalative Impacts
Jamie Thompson BLM Public Affairs in Winnemucca--775 623-1541--can probably get you a copy of hte news letter.
The Scoping report is out and available for review at the Winnemucca office. I wish it were on-line. If anyone does contact the office, could you ask when the website will be back up and report to us here?
Most raised issues in the Scoping report:
Air Quality
Water Quality and Quantity
Impacts on wildlife and ecosystems
Alternative Energy
Impacts on Natural and Agricultural vegitation
Construction, operation noise
Land Use and Access
Cumalative Impacts
Jamie Thompson BLM Public Affairs in Winnemucca--775 623-1541--can probably get you a copy of hte news letter.
The Scoping report is out and available for review at the Winnemucca office. I wish it were on-line. If anyone does contact the office, could you ask when the website will be back up and report to us here?
The Lady with a Lamprey
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
-
Apollonaris Zeus
- Posts: 3716
- Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am
-
theCryptofishist
- Posts: 40312
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:28 am
- Burning Since: 2017
- Location: In Exile
http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic ... /1016/NEWS
Sempra Energy has stopped work on a federally required environmental study for its coal-fired power project near Gerlach, prompting opponents to question whether the project has a future.
The Lady with a Lamprey
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
-
freakersedge
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:42 am
- Location: Reno, Nevada
Two years ago I met a gentleman who had developed a wind mill that didn't use any external blades and generated larger amounts of electricity than the bladed kind. He is a local man, wouldn't it be great if we could take those towers with us to BM, run the wire temperarily, and everybody could have air-conditioning in their tents. Then take it all away till the next year?
Freaker
Freaker
just your basic hippy
-
freakersedge
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:42 am
- Location: Reno, Nevada
-
can't sit still
- Posts: 4645
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
- Location: SoCal
This is relavent Nevada info. It might be dated.
NEVADA:
Reno - An agreement was signed with the Pyramid Lake Paiute Tribe to develop geothermal resources on the tribe’s reservation for a new 40MW geothermal plant in the previously developed Steamboat geothermal power park, located 9 miles south of Reno. The technology, an air-cooled binary cycle, has been used in 4 plants thus far.
Churchill County – The County has installed a new 5MW binary-cycle geothermal plant, which will be added to the existing plant in Brady Hot Springs.
Reno - A 30-year contract was signed to make the University of Nevada at Reno the only college campus in the world powered by renewable energy. ATS is to build and operate an 11-kW geothermal power plant to open next year. Excess power would be sold to Sierra Pacific. [Restructuring Today (ISSN 1522-7324)]
Nye County - Nathaniel Energy Corp. and Renewable Development LLC (of CO) will provide electricity from 3800 acres of real estate property in Nye County. Tonopah Aeronautics and Tech. Park, a $25million facility, will burn used tires and convert them into electricity utilizing its thermal combustion technology. It is estimated that 25MW of energy will be produced.
Reno - Some 80 wind turbines will be installed for a new 120-MW facility in California's Mojave Desert that will be the first wind project for the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. The project, to be completed in the summer of 2004, will run on 1.5-MW wind turbines and will take up about 22,000 acres of land located 12 miles north of Mojave, CA. [utitilpoint.com 6 march 2003]
Boulder City – A thirty year-old contract was signed between the Sierra Pacific Electric Utility and Solargenix Energy LLC (formerly Dulce Solar LLC) for a 50 Mw solar steam to electric plant. The Nevada Public Utility Company voted in support of the project.
NEVADA:
Reno - An agreement was signed with the Pyramid Lake Paiute Tribe to develop geothermal resources on the tribe’s reservation for a new 40MW geothermal plant in the previously developed Steamboat geothermal power park, located 9 miles south of Reno. The technology, an air-cooled binary cycle, has been used in 4 plants thus far.
Churchill County – The County has installed a new 5MW binary-cycle geothermal plant, which will be added to the existing plant in Brady Hot Springs.
Reno - A 30-year contract was signed to make the University of Nevada at Reno the only college campus in the world powered by renewable energy. ATS is to build and operate an 11-kW geothermal power plant to open next year. Excess power would be sold to Sierra Pacific. [Restructuring Today (ISSN 1522-7324)]
Nye County - Nathaniel Energy Corp. and Renewable Development LLC (of CO) will provide electricity from 3800 acres of real estate property in Nye County. Tonopah Aeronautics and Tech. Park, a $25million facility, will burn used tires and convert them into electricity utilizing its thermal combustion technology. It is estimated that 25MW of energy will be produced.
Reno - Some 80 wind turbines will be installed for a new 120-MW facility in California's Mojave Desert that will be the first wind project for the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. The project, to be completed in the summer of 2004, will run on 1.5-MW wind turbines and will take up about 22,000 acres of land located 12 miles north of Mojave, CA. [utitilpoint.com 6 march 2003]
Boulder City – A thirty year-old contract was signed between the Sierra Pacific Electric Utility and Solargenix Energy LLC (formerly Dulce Solar LLC) for a 50 Mw solar steam to electric plant. The Nevada Public Utility Company voted in support of the project.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
-
theCryptofishist
- Posts: 40312
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:28 am
- Burning Since: 2017
- Location: In Exile
And at least one plant that was slated to be a natural gas, is now re-starting its environmental review process to burn coal instead, due to the huge recent price increase of natural gas. This is in Clark county, and I've forgotten it's name.
The Lady with a Lamprey
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
-
freakersedge
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:42 am
- Location: Reno, Nevada
Did the price of Natural Gas rise because one competitor failed and the demand rose, or was it a chance to gouge the public because the cost of Gasoline rose? I still believe where you have a gathering of minds, great things for everyone comes out of it. When we have a gathering around one mind, or one way, the good decays.
We could screw the planet if we had another to use, but I really don't see this as an option, never mind our beloved NASA. What they have shown us so far is that Mars may have been humanities home at one time and that was destroyed...kinda like how the continent of Mu lost it? I digress into the fantastic because we, as a onetime a year community do serve many purposes, not like other gatherings that serve one purpose, so we could and have changed history.
Is there a perpetual motion machine that can be harnessed? The windmills of the Dutch along with the Pelton generator are both advances that have been created and abandoned with no reguard for actual benefit because they both worked really well. Do you know that Sierra City had electric lights long before the capital of California did, simply because they didn't need to transmit the energy long distance?
What of our dependence on the personal vehicle, are we so afraid of other people that we cannot group travel? Saddly we can't, yet, though it should be a goal we work toward. Hopefully with this computer, we can change some of the more degrading things about ourselves; Like always thinking of ourselves first? Do we really want the whole world to fail because we cannot recognize the genius in sharing and gifting?
I knew that the first people the communists would kill in Viet Nam was the intellectuals, they offered too much diversity and not enough do-it-ness. They did, too. Those who say, "these rules have to be followed", without a genuine reason are everyones enemy, yet that is the most common government on our planet? America has no peer amongst the rulers because we do effect our own future for the betterment of those who follow, at least we used to. I believe we still do in small ways, by growing out of the old and bringing in the new, what we need to be wary about is which old. You have heard of the Pelton wheel haven't you?
freaker
We could screw the planet if we had another to use, but I really don't see this as an option, never mind our beloved NASA. What they have shown us so far is that Mars may have been humanities home at one time and that was destroyed...kinda like how the continent of Mu lost it? I digress into the fantastic because we, as a onetime a year community do serve many purposes, not like other gatherings that serve one purpose, so we could and have changed history.
Is there a perpetual motion machine that can be harnessed? The windmills of the Dutch along with the Pelton generator are both advances that have been created and abandoned with no reguard for actual benefit because they both worked really well. Do you know that Sierra City had electric lights long before the capital of California did, simply because they didn't need to transmit the energy long distance?
What of our dependence on the personal vehicle, are we so afraid of other people that we cannot group travel? Saddly we can't, yet, though it should be a goal we work toward. Hopefully with this computer, we can change some of the more degrading things about ourselves; Like always thinking of ourselves first? Do we really want the whole world to fail because we cannot recognize the genius in sharing and gifting?
I knew that the first people the communists would kill in Viet Nam was the intellectuals, they offered too much diversity and not enough do-it-ness. They did, too. Those who say, "these rules have to be followed", without a genuine reason are everyones enemy, yet that is the most common government on our planet? America has no peer amongst the rulers because we do effect our own future for the betterment of those who follow, at least we used to. I believe we still do in small ways, by growing out of the old and bringing in the new, what we need to be wary about is which old. You have heard of the Pelton wheel haven't you?
freaker
just your basic hippy
-
theCryptofishist
- Posts: 40312
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:28 am
- Burning Since: 2017
- Location: In Exile
The March 2003 EIS considered evaluating several project and right-
of-way alternatives, among which was the use of an alternative fuel
such as coal. This alternative was eliminated from the 2003 EIS because
project economics did not support such an alternative at the time.
Therefore, a coal-fired plant was never analyzed. However, a recent
change in market conditions, driven by the ever higher and volatile
prices of natural gas, is making this alternative more desirable and
economically viable.
and by the way, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics.
of-way alternatives, among which was the use of an alternative fuel
such as coal. This alternative was eliminated from the 2003 EIS because
project economics did not support such an alternative at the time.
Therefore, a coal-fired plant was never analyzed. However, a recent
change in market conditions, driven by the ever higher and volatile
prices of natural gas, is making this alternative more desirable and
economically viable.
and by the way, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics.
The Lady with a Lamprey
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri
-
Ugly Dougly
- Posts: 17612
- Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
- Burning Since: 1996
- Location: เชียงใหม่
-
can't sit still
- Posts: 4645
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
- Location: SoCal
Freaker, at the Oregon fair, I talked to a guy who was selling a new slightly modified Pelton wheel. The application was for small alternators.
They were cast from lost wax and were beautiful.
I have a turn of the century mining equipment catalog that lists wheels with all the dimensions and HP.
I've seen the wheels at a hydroelectric installation but they were more of a radial vane rather than a double cup[pelton]
The wind generator that you were refering to can be made in a simple form by slicing barrels in half and mounting them horizontal.[oversimplified]
I'm almost, maybe thinking of doing that. My Bedini device that I built is comimg along slowly because I have no intuition for circuits.
Dan
shoot, did I go off-topic??
They were cast from lost wax and were beautiful.
I have a turn of the century mining equipment catalog that lists wheels with all the dimensions and HP.
I've seen the wheels at a hydroelectric installation but they were more of a radial vane rather than a double cup[pelton]
The wind generator that you were refering to can be made in a simple form by slicing barrels in half and mounting them horizontal.[oversimplified]
I'm almost, maybe thinking of doing that. My Bedini device that I built is comimg along slowly because I have no intuition for circuits.
Dan
shoot, did I go off-topic??
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
-
freakersedge
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:42 am
- Location: Reno, Nevada
haha still,
I know I seem to go off topic but every point has a history to it, we are not robots are we? I attended too many one day seminars to think that man doesn't want non-robots. As we are not working for that man directly...I don't think anybody can with the advent of plasible deniability but I believe we love to filter what is important so why deny that love? Something seemingly un-important may spark creativity.
So, I like your barrel idea however I think I will go in search of my local friend and see if he would like to come to bm this year, or donate a couple of his towers. It would be very serendipidous if he has sold the patent rights to some nameless billion dollar company who is sitting on the idea because they want to kill birds. We all know evil people exist, I have been accused of being one, so you can't accuse others of imaginary acts can you?
freaker
I know I seem to go off topic but every point has a history to it, we are not robots are we? I attended too many one day seminars to think that man doesn't want non-robots. As we are not working for that man directly...I don't think anybody can with the advent of plasible deniability but I believe we love to filter what is important so why deny that love? Something seemingly un-important may spark creativity.
So, I like your barrel idea however I think I will go in search of my local friend and see if he would like to come to bm this year, or donate a couple of his towers. It would be very serendipidous if he has sold the patent rights to some nameless billion dollar company who is sitting on the idea because they want to kill birds. We all know evil people exist, I have been accused of being one, so you can't accuse others of imaginary acts can you?
freaker
just your basic hippy