New Orleans is Doomed

[lurker]

How long them levees been deteriorating, Cowboy? Just since 2001? 2004?

See, there's blame being placed, blame being aimed Blame, blame, blame. Lotta people wanna blame Bush, and the feds for not micromanaging the situation prior to the storm...lotta folks wanna blame Nagin and Blanco for not being precognitive enough to be ready , to have known that THIS was the big one(it wasn't--until the levees broke)

But the blame doesn't DO anything---it's not gonna get heads to roll. It's not gonna help the situation in any way. No one'll be saved faster, no streets'll get dried quicker. Nothing will be accomplished by it at all.

"What if their inaction killed your mother?'

It didn't.....did it kill yours?

That would be sad, and horrible, but it wouldn't change the fact that we need to play the hand dealt and do the best we can with the cards in hand--not focus on the last hand.

My mother wouldn't want me to sit on my ass and do nothing except whine about her death--she might want me to see to it that it couldn't happen again, but that'd require DOING something besides blaming people.

The levees need to be improved. The contingency plans need to be made better and more workable. The city needs to be repaired, rebuilt and restored.

Being in a positive forward-looking frame of mind will have us all working together to help this get done. Whining will only divide us.

A friend has found out that many floats didn't sustain any great amount of damage, he's looking forward to riding with Bacchus again this year. He's working towards a positive future with an attitude that refuses to surrender to the obstacles that lie in his path

Look foreward, do something positive. Don't dwell on a past that you can't change.

Donate. Volunteer. Act.

Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulent Encore

[Kinetic IV]

New Orleans will bounce back just like Chicago did after the great fire and San Francisco has after it's earthquakes. The old housing stock will be wiped out but the core CBD is relatively intact so rebuilding has a starting point to build around. The levees will be raised and reinforced, bigger pumps put in, and before you know it the TV networks will be celebrating the return of Mardi Gras and the NFL may even move a Superbowl back to a renovated and better than ever Louisiana Superdome. Watch and see...seriously if you look at the geography of the place there's not a good relocation spot for a city that size anywhere in Southern Louisiana. If Venice can survive being flooded and sinking, the engineers can rebuild New Orleans. Hope springs eternal, this city will be back!

[cowboyangel]

How long them levees been deteriorating, Cowboy? Just since 2001? 2004?

See, there's blame being placed, blame being aimed Blame, blame, blame. Lotta people wanna blame Bush, and the feds for not micromanaging the situation prior to the storm...lotta folks wanna blame Nagin and Blanco for not being precognitive enough to be ready , to have known that THIS was the big one(it wasn't--until the levees broke)

But the blame doesn't DO anything---it's not gonna get heads to roll. It's not gonna help the situation in any way. No one'll be saved faster, no streets'll get dried quicker. Nothing will be accomplished by it at all.

"What if their inaction killed your mother?'

It didn't.....did it kill yours?

That would be sad, and horrible, but it wouldn't change the fact that we need to play the hand dealt and do the best we can with the cards in hand--not focus on the last hand.

My mother wouldn't want me to sit on my ass and do nothing except whine about her death--she might want me to see to it that it couldn't happen again, but that'd require DOING something besides blaming people.

The levees need to be improved. The contingency plans need to be made better and more workable. The city needs to be repaired, rebuilt and restored.

Being in a positive forward-looking frame of mind will have us all working together to help this get done. Whining will only divide us.

A friend has found out that many floats didn't sustain any great amount of damage, he's looking forward to riding with Bacchus again this year. He's working towards a positive future with an attitude that refuses to surrender to the obstacles that lie in his path

Look foreward, do something positive. Don't dwell on a past that you can't change.

Donate. Volunteer. Act.

Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulent Encore

The republican spin machine is trying to divert attention away from the administration's horrible and malicious handling of the New Orleans tragedy by characterizing the latest round of critics as "the blame game crowd". No one I know on the left, isn't doing something to help out. I have sent money to the red cross and will probably send more. No. Don't fall prey to the idiotic republican pr shit. Federal response to this disaster was criminal to say the least. There are plenty of blogs out there that tell the different story. I suggest you check them out
http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/live/
http://thenation.com


By not holding the failures of government to account here, we only perpetrate the folly, and I for one will never be party to that. This is not "whinning" as you say, but life and death reckoning my friend. To the critics, I say, give us more!




The Disaster President


As the fourth anniversary of September 11 approached, Americans were increasingly disquieted by the costly quagmire in Iraq, rising gas prices and an economy that benefits only CEOs. Then the destruction visited upon the Gulf Coast by Hurricane Katrina, and the grossly negligent government response to the flooding that followed, exposed the full scope of George W. Bush's misrule. The failures were so outrageous they roused even our embedded media from its slumbers.

But the incompetence revealed by the response to the hurricane is deep-rooted, and can be traced to the twenty-five-year project, begun in the Reagan era, of discrediting government, "starving the beast" of resources and exalting private markets and faith-based charities. Tax cuts for the wealthy and Congressional corruption have drained government of the imagination and resources to address human needs. Katrina has brutally exposed Americans to the costs of this folly.

The spending squeeze that delayed the strengthening of the levees in New Orleans--despite repeated warnings from experts--reflects this Administration's skewed priorities: money for war and occupation in Iraq but not for protection of life at home. With one-third of the troops and half the equipment of the Louisiana and Mississippi National Guard in Iraq, Americans saw stark evidence of the domestic price of the war this President has chosen to fight on credit. And the chilling scenes of calamity visited on the most vulnerable exposed to the world America's reality: a country ever more divided by race and class.

CONTINUED BELOW
The Gulf Coast looked, said Bush, like it had been hit with "the worst kind of weapon." The President is right, responded Representative Dennis Kucinich. "Indifference is a weapon of mass destruction." While most of the affluent of New Orleans left by car or plane, the poor had no way out. They were told to go to the Superdome and convention center, where--unbelievably--there were inadequate supplies of food and water, no electricity, befouled sanitation facilities and no police protection. When it came time to rescue and relocate the displaced, the Bush Administration placed the onus on state and local officials and called on citizens to give to charities. But faith-based disaster relief is no substitute for an effective, organized, rapid government response.

Since New Orleans is a major center of oil imports and refining, Katrina roiled already tight energy markets. Gas companies, wallowing in record profits, took the occasion to gouge Americans at the pump. The companies' rapacity and the country's vulnerability are direct results of Bush's Big Oil energy policy, his failure to lead a drive for energy independence by investing in conservation and in renewable and diverse energy sources. Instead of calling for an excess-profits tax on oil companies to help pay for the rebuilding, Bush immediately asserted that no tax increase was necessary.

The staggering incompetence of the Department of Homeland Security--which disregarded its own forecasts--exposed this Administration's glaring failure to prepare for emergencies after September 11. In the chaotic reorganization of DHS, the powers of FEMA, the agency in charge of natural disasters, were weakened and its budget slashed.

Now, in the wake of Katrina, America must begin rebuilding from the ruins caused by nature and policy. A massive public works project is imperative for New Orleans and neighboring communities, one with affordable housing and adequate planning for flood and storm protection. We must restore the wetlands and barrier islands that have been degraded by canals and levees.

The disaster requires a thorough investigation into what went wrong, by an independent commission with subpoena power. It should also lead now-furious Americans to re-examine a generation of backward priorities. The debate about the role of government in the service of public good has been reopened. The hurricane revealed not only the desperate poverty of the region's African-American population but also the poverty of our federal policies. For too long our leaders have abandoned our cities, our poor, our public infrastructure. We need a government dedicated to serving the unemployed, the ill fed and the ill housed. It's time to end the dismantling and begin the rebuilding.

There is nothing in George Bush's policies or actions to suggest that his Administration has the leadership or the values for the task. To recover from this government's follies, Americans need a relocation and reclamation project in Washington, DC, in addition to the massive one beginning in Katrina's wake.

[kpefx]

My mom is a pot smoking resigned pediatrition who studies neurophysic's I am recruiting her for future burns but in the mean time she needs to find a Burner group down in New Orleans. She wants to go help and does not want to work with any Bush midigated organizations she needs burner advice please help any info or ideas are helpful. She wants to take care of the sick people down there and can't find an organization other than red cross that could use her Pidiatric and ER skills please let me know any thing helps

[diane o'thirst]

The flooding of New Orleans is the biggest diaspora in this country this side of the Dust Bowl back in the 1930s. Refugees from the flood are scattering everywhere; what your mom could possibly do is volunteer to do pediatrics at her local free medical clinic so as to help mitigate the extra number of clients that such a diaspora inevitably entails.

As for the New Orleans Burning Man group...ah...heh-heh...pick a state, probably out this way, because obviously, they'll have received offers from the Bay Area/Oregon/Seattle communities to come and be there until they can get back on their feet.

Where are you located?

[lurker]

Listen to yourselves.

Scoring cheap political points is more important than helping people--

"does not want to work with any Bush midigated organizations'

WHAT? If the rescue comes from someone you disagree with politically you don't want to help? People can die because Bush might be affiliated with an agency and you don't want your precious hands tarnished?

You sicken me.

The powers that be screwed this up six ways from sunday. On the city, state, and federal levels---but NONE of that matters. You cannot go back in time and change this. You've got to deal with what HAS ACTUALLY HAPPENED rather than harping over might-have -beens.

EVERYONE can spin this how they want, republicans, democrats, the left, the right--everyone.

And it helps NO ONE. In fact, if that hideous statement is allowed to stand, "does not want to work with any Bush midigated organizations", it is shown to actually HINDER the restoration of New Orleans

Positive attitudes, positive action. This is what is needed now I will--, I can--, I have--

Some of the people cooking food for the relief effort are chefs and cooks from the great restaurants of Crescent City cuisine. I've seen gourmet food as the daily offering.....only in New Orleans, eh?

Politics divide us. Blinded by ideology, it's easy to not see that we're all human.

Donate. Volunteer. Act.

Laissez les Bon Temps Roulent Encore

[Kinetic IV]

Shrub Co. can go finger fuck himself.

There is a way to donate and not deal with Shrub or Uncle Sam's bloated, led by the stupid and criminally incompetent, disaster suffering enhancement and extension program and Isotopia posted a link to it last night in other threads:

http://www.oxfamamerica.org/

I did some checking on this group and I like what I saw enough that I'll be sending my donations to them. I don't like the Red Cross either...yeah, go charge someone for a cup of coffee that lost everything in a tornado...fuck them 50 ways to Sunday, I won't give them a dime. I donate to the Shriners, the Salvation Army, and Oxfam will make my main charity list now.

Iso, thanks for posting that link and giving us a chance to really make a positive impact. And again, Bush can go fuck off....go look at the credentials of the FEMA director if you want to see just how jacked up things are. And I've been a long term Corps of Engineers supporter...don't be gutting their budget and them blaming them for colossal fuckups. That shit won't fly around here.

[ZaphodBurner]

If you're looking for an org to contact, check out Northwest Medical Teams.

I have toured the facility and followed them for a few years now. They're based in Oregon and this is how they operate:

Whenever an American hospital performs a surgery, there's often a "kit" that has all the required stuff. Most of this stuff ends up being unused and discarded even though it's still wrapped and sterile. NWMT collects these remaining kit components from medical agencies and holds them in their warehouse in Oregon until a crisis emerges. Then, volunteer doctors and medical industry workers draw from this pool of unused, cast-off medical supplies and takes them to the disaster area.

Last time I checked, they had the highest donor-dollar-to-victim ratio of their kind in America...was something like 85-90 cents to the dollar, IIRC

Northwest Medical Teams. I'm donating as much of my coming paycheck I can afford to them. I have no other affiliation to them except having taken the tour with a former girlfriend. They are presently deployed to the New Orleans disaster area.

-c

[Observer]

Considering the fact that this is the poster who made the remake about how everybody made him "sick", I trust there would be no problem with me being less than gentle with him, regardless of where he claims to be from?

See, there's blame being placed, blame being aimed Blame, blame, blame.

Yes, it's called "holding people responsible for their screw-ups"; a good thing to do in general, as society really can't function when irresponsibility becomes the norm, and positively essential when those screwing up are in high places in government. On what would you suggest that we base our vote, if we are to go along with your bizarre demand that we muzzle ourselves, whenever we find ourselves starting to criticise the government? A coin toss? This kind of ongoing dialog about how good a job they are or are not doing is at the heart of how the electorate comes to a rational decision as to who it supports in the next election, and it is precisely when so much is at stake that we get to see exactly what kind of leadership we are enjoying. But we only get to see it if we look, and in order for there to be a dialog, we have to talk about what we're seeing and honestly compare notes, especially when somebody comes up looking not very good.

To be opposed to this is to be opposed to any kind of real democracy. If Mr.Bush really did utter some of the lines that you are now parroting, this is a real comment on exactly what kind of president we have. I'm hearing commentary about how some of us are pointing fingers when lives need to be saved, with no explanation apparently being given by the president as to how having his job performance scrutinized will get in the way of lives being saved. Some, in backing up this outrageous attempt to portray Mr.Bush's efforts to cover his own ass as being something done for the greater good, have gone so far as to brand those not so easily manipulated as being "un-Anerican".

For those who are inclined to agree, a small reading assignment. Go to the Federalist Papers, and read up on WHY freedom of speech and of the press were among the first freedoms guaranteed. One will find that the first amendment was framed specifically so that the government would be subject to criticism and scrutiny, so in order to believe that criticising the current administration makes one un-American, one has to believe that the founding fathers were themselves, un-American. A remarkable claim, generally made by some truly unremarkable people, like Mr.Bush.

[lurker]

I started to resond huffily--as I've done too many times.

Blame. Blame all you want. Hold Nagin and Bush and Blanco and FEMA and everyone else's feet to whatever fire floats your political boat. Make whoever your villain-of-choice is pay.

But don't let any of that get in the way of giving whatever help you can. Don't hold back your help for political reasons. If you can help, just help.

Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulent Encore...

[Observer]

Oh, and "Lurker" ... it almost goes without saying, but what you wrote is so out there that I plonked you yesterday. It's not OK to criticise the government? Good Lord. Sir, I know that you know that this is the 21st century, I'm just not sure that you know that it's the 21st century AD.

Thought I'd point that out for you. Go on about your day.

[Observer]

Oh, this just came up an hour ago ...

Bush Takes Responsibility for Blunders

Damn him! George Bush pointing a finger at George Bush, when lives need to be saved! Lurker, go scold him!

[lurker]

Y'know, I read my posts over and over again looking for the place where I said

It's not OK to criticise the government

I couldn't find it. Anywhere. And I looked some more. And still I couldn't find it. And I wondered....

Maybe I hit a nerve. Maybe my posts saying that rebuilding is more important than blaming, that a positive outlook will do more to help than all the whining in the world really cut Observer.

Maybe Observer does feel that nailing Bush is more important than doing whatever one can to help rebuild and heal the Gulf Coast. Maybe politics has blinded him to the fact that the hurricane, and the flooding, and the death and disease didn't discriminate on the basis of ideology.

But that's okay, like I said, believe whatever you want, just help.

I started on this topic because the 'New Orleans is doomed' meme needed to be kicked to the ground as quickly as poosible--and it's hard to do. Despair was --and still is--lurking(pardon the pun). I'd heard from people who'd stayed that it wasn't as bad as the media was putting on, that New Orleans would rise--was rising-- from this catastrophe.

I answered the 'blame' posts because blame gets you nowhere. Fix, move forward, see that this doesn't happen again. Blame does none of these things--worse, it divides us when we should be working together. In the rush to blame the people on the other side of the political divide actions that need to be taken don't, and the relief effort devolves into things done for appearances sake.

Observer 'plonked' me because I apparently support 'the government'(not sure which one, municipal, state or federal--but it's probably federal, given the followup about Bush accepting responsibility) It was done nice and public like, so I'd know and ...I guess...be offended?

Here's who I support--I support my friends on Decatur, those who stuck it out, and those who're waiting to get home. I support the people at Johnny White's, who kept the spirit of the city alive through the worst of it. I support the folks at Big Daddy's who're....eager....to get back to business. And I support anyone who's willing to give them a hand--no matter what poltical stripe they might be from.

Donate. Volunteer. Act.

Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulent Encore

[Kinetic IV]

Thread killer:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/14/katrin ... index.html

The reality on the ground trumps any arguments here. New Orleans is bouncing back, there won't be any massive relocations of the city's core, the port is open again, the French Quarter will be reopening soon...

And IMHO C. Ray Nagin is one of America's best mayors. Yeah he made mistakes but he fought like hell for his citizens which is more than some can claim.

And I'll be watching Shrub's speech tomorrow night, I'm curious what he has to say about the whole state of affairs.

[ZaphodBurner]

If there's a silver lining here, it could be reports that insects have died because of toxins in the muck.

Makes me wonder about the roaches. Is it possible that New^2 Olreans will be roach-free?

Not likely. They're probably mutating into something straight out of Damnation Alley and south will be inflicted with giant rat-eating PCB-addict irridescent cockroaches. All the city will need is some lasso-slinging roach wranglers...I'm pretty sure the cajuns already do that...and they can hook the critters up to treadmills and generate energy with them.

Might be a new cuisine. I'm just sayin...look what they've done for crawfish.

In other news, my retiree relatives returned to Gulfport and found their mobile home sitting pretty while everything around it was ruined.

C'est la vie say the old folks...
-c

[joel the ornery]

And IMHO C. Ray Nagin is one of America's best mayors. Yeah he made mistakes but he fought like hell for his citizens which is more than some can claim.

by what method are you measuring his performance?

how loudly he cried about the federal government when his own local government failed to execute the local evacuation plan?

un-fucking-believable!

[the mole]

Mission Statement:

The Second Line is a long-standing, long-dancing New Orleans tradition; best known as the band that follows funerals, somber on the way to the grave, joyous and celebratory on the way back.

Inspired by this fine tradition, Third Line is a rapidly expanding hurricane relief organization, with a core comprised of New Orleans residents and entertainers, and a vast network of friends who also want to help. Primarily we are a circus, which will provide entertainment relief (in the form of circus acts, a mobile film theater, puppet shows, and music) and children’s day care (with an educational focus on creating their own children’s circus), although we seek to fulfill other needs as we see fit (e.g. housing, clothing, etc.).

As our network has grown we have also begun to realize a new, much more serious set of issues: the general news media is failing to report what is basically criminal negligence. And so our mission has expanded to include the following two goals: 1. the dissemination of alternative and repressed news reports (including reports that government officials have been denying New Orleans residents the access to evacuate as well as confiscating food and water supplies), and 2. the aiding of citizens still inside New Orleans by any and all means necessary.

Our membership, which has been constantly growing in number, currently includes individuals proficient in a vast number of areas including emergency medical care, day care, information and media technology, and more, not to mention arts, music, and entertainment. With the cooperation of The Burning Man organization and Red Cross we helped to raise over $30,000, about $4500 of which has been put towards our endeavors, the rest of which may also go to us, Red Cross, or other relief groups. Whether or not we are allowed further funding will likely depend on us showing results.

In any event, we are actively seeking support in the form of participants who whould like to join us in Houston, either as entertainers or laborers, as well as donations of materials and/or funds to aid our mission. Please contact us if you’re interested in participating in any way.

------

So anyway, we’re now in Austin, Texas, networking with refugees and some folks who want to volunteer, doing some circus performance, and developing more ideas. Lots of people seem interested in helping out, and everything is running smoothly. We’ll be heading down to Houston on Sunday or Monday, where we will create our semi-permanent base, and from which certain members of our group will be going into New Orleans to help with clean-up/rebuilding/medication/evacuation/etc.

If anybody would like to help out, either from home or in Houston, please contact me (e-mail: [email protected]; phone: 808 344 0719). We now have a network of people and organizations varied enough to find a place for virtually any sort of volunteer, from entertainers to laborers.

Here’s our web site: http://thirdlinecircus.com (which is still very much ‘under construction’ at this point). Soon it should have alternative news reports, links to help or get help, footage of our efforts, updates on our progress and upcoming events, etc.

Besides volunteering you can also help the relief effort by donating, either to us or other worthy organizations. To donate to Third Line just go to PayPal.com and make your donation to [email protected]. Maybe folks can reply to this post with links to other good organizations…

[ZaphodBurner]

Mission Statement:
Besides volunteering you can also help the relief effort by donating, either to us or other worthy organizations. To donate to Third Line just go to PayPal.com and make your donation to [email protected]. Maybe folks can reply to this post with links to other good organizations…

My wife and I decided yesterday that instead of exchanging gifts and celebrating our 5th anniversary this weekend we are donating that money to the Katrina effort. It is with guilt and sadness that this is all we can do until next month.

It's not without its own degree of selfishness because I relatives in Gulfport, which is FUCKING RUINED! (If irony can still be appreciated, the retirees who live in a mobile home park came back to find their homes perfectly intact while everything around them was wiped out.)

If you all haven't seen http://www.burningman.com/blackrockcity ... trina.html
check it out. It will inspire you. $35,000 donated at Black Rock City by people who didn't even bring money.

-zb
"I cannot control the winds, but I can adjust my sails." - sign on a Morgan City, LA church used as a shelter after Hurricane Andrew.

[falk]

I don't like the Red Cross either...yeah, go charge someone for a cup of coffee that lost everything in a tornado

Urban legend

[ZaphodBurner]

I don't like the Red Cross either...yeah, go charge someone for a cup of coffee that lost everything in a tornado

Urban legend

Thanks for that. I'd heard that rumor too, right after I sent them a donation. I'm fairly certain that Clara Barton herself would rise from the dead and kick some ass if the Red Cross started charging people.

The next rounds are going to the Burner group in Biloxi.
-c

[jupiter9]

nature bats last

[can't sit still]

Here's a fascinating bit of Deja Vu. FEMA said that NOL was going to get hit hard a year before it happened.
http://205.188.130.53/ngm/0410/feature5 ... raphic.com

[geekster]

Sure, FEMA and everyone else knew. I don't think, however, that people were given an accurate picture of the role of FEMA in a thing like a hurricane. States and local governments are expected to do one hell of a better job than was done in this case. That there were so many people still in the city needing rescue was not FEMA's fault.

Also, the complete lack of coordination after the disaster is not FEMAs fault either. It is very hard for someone to provide resources when the people that need those resources can not communicate their need in any organized way. The picture I am starting to get is one of utter disorganization. Responders getting in to those areas were pretty much on their own to discover who needed what. Coordination with others that might have available resources was practically non-existant. In many cases, the state agencies blocked responders from providing help because they didn't have the proper state credentials or other red tape.

I believe this pointed out the need for survivable communications and procedures more than any disaster we have ever had.

Yes, areas flooded. But there is no excuse for so many people to have been left in the danger areas, particularly when the evacuation calls went out several days in advance.

In Houston, we learned that evacuation of a large metro area (4th largest in the country, I believe) by individuals in automobiles is a mess. How can we use things like rail and busses next time to evacuate large numbers of people quickly? There is a second benefit to evacuating people with rail and other forms of mass transit: you can manage the return of residents after the disaster better.

The three most important things that I am getting out of all this are needs to:

1. Have a survivable communications system so towns, cities, counties, and states can have an accurate picture of what is going on.

2. Have egress and ingress plans to handle evacuees in a less chaotic manner.

3. In a disaster such a a hurricane, you don't evacuate people into an area that itself might be the target of another hurricane.

In the case of the group of ambulances that were turned back because they didn't have the correct state credential, the people turning them back should have had the authority to decide if the responders were legitimate (and not just looters trying to gain access to the area) and if they are, issue a provisional credential on the spot that is good for a short period, say 3 days, until a regular credential can be obtained.

The idea is getting help to people, not making sure the help is "correct" in it's paperwork. I believe every agency in the area was unprepared for what they faced. I even have a small nit to pick with Oxfam when they refused shelter because it had plastic sheeting with "USAID" on it. Fuck that. People need shelter and it doesn't matter if it is "politically correct" shelter or not. Times like those are when differences must be set aside briefly and the basic needs of our neighbors met.

Overall, I am amazed at what volunteers from outside the region have been able to do in spite of a total lack of coordination by the indigenous organizations.

[can't sit still]

Geekster, that's what I call a VERY good post.
I was in Northridge for the last quake. 1 month ahead of time the USGS reported that the pressure under the SFV was raising at an unsustainable rate. That was pretty easy to ignore so, in effect, we didn't have any warning.
After the quake, everbody just sat tight. We knew that after a while the county and state would get around to checking on us. Everybody offered swimming pool water to their neighbors for flushing toilets. Everybody had barbecues and ice cream socials to empty their freezers.
The freeways were down and there wasn't any egress. NO evacuation. There was no panic or looting so emergency services could concentrate on the injured. The people who lived in crappy apartments set up tents in the city parks.

The aftershocks made people nervous , but nobody freaked. Everybody helped out and nobody went looking for the government. A lot of the brick fire stations and police stations were damaged so Gov was busy with their own problems.
FEMA was an entity that we expected to see someday after reconstruction got started. This area gets enormous brush fires, landslides and earthquakes. Everyone keeps their cool so emergency services can deal with the problem and don't have to worry about civil insurrection. When there's a wildfire, we all go out and help people evacuate their horses.

In the 71 quake, Van Norman resevoir above the valley was ready to burst. They called for evacuation. Everybody left, a few cops patrolled and there wasn't any problem. Olive View hospital fell down, but Gov dealt with it.
Nobody went looking for Gov to hold their hand.
My point to all this is that everyone needs to keep cool and look out for themselves and help their neighbor if they can. Semi-radical self-reliance.
Personal preparedness and response will make all the difference when disaster strikes.

Right now, the people in LA know that their part of the San Andreas hasn't moved since the Great Tejon Quake of 1865. The rest of the fault has moved 35 meters. When the Palmdale Bulge finally lets go, parts of the valley are going to go north at 3 Gs. The ground should hit 55 mph before it comes to a sudden stop. The fault is 250 miles deep. The quake is expected to last 7 min. in LA. The people who plan to depend on Gov are going to be disappointed in a big way.
Radical self-reliance.
Dan

[diane o'thirst]

That's pretty much what we did for the Loma Prieta quake in '89. My dad set up the barbecue pit for the neighbours and they slept outside on the front porch until the inspectors came through and checked everything out a week later.

Understand that I haven't been through a hurricane but we did suffer a pretty serious flood back in '81 in Santa Cruz. The San Lorenzo River pretty much spilled over the levee and took over downtown and we lost water and power for a week. My family was okay because we were up on a hill and used our well water but the power was still out; we hooked the pump up to a car battery to run it.

That having been said...I think it's not quite right to compare earthquakes and huge-scale flooding like we saw with Katrina. With a quake — your power's out, you can't sleep inside, and depending on where you are you may or may not have access to drinking and washwater. Mom and Dad did, my ex and I did, we knew some people who didn't, we knew some people who did.

With a flood — okay, that's not water, that's essentially an open sewer/toxic spill writ large, and it's lapping at your front porch if not actually marching straight through your house. Toxicity aside, even if there wasn't industrial pollution and raw sewage and dead critters and shrapnel in it, the water by itself can kill you if you fall in and can't swim, or get caught in a surge, and it could be days before it stops impinging on your sitch. An earthquake shakes for a couple minutes, then stops, with of course the aftershocks, which may or may not be stronger. But it doesn't continually shake and threaten you for days and days on end, not like floodwaters.

[Badger]

I think it's not quite right to compare earthquakes and huge-scale flooding like we saw with Katrina.

Yeh, except that just getting back from Mississippi myself I've concluded that bay area folk are FUCKED if for a minute they expect that Red Cross to be anything but a bunch of bumbling, infighting asswipes who really don't seem to know WHAT THE FUCK is going on WHEN the big quake comes.

Successful recovery is going to happen in those neighborhoods where people are prepared. Anyone thinking that things will get taken care of by a lumbering, reactive monolith like the Red Cross or FEMA are in for one hell of a very ugly lesson.

[geekster]

Right now, the people in LA know that their part of the San Andreas hasn't moved since the Great Tejon Quake of 1865

My personal feeling is that very section of the fault is likely to be the next to fail. It has been oddly quiet on the fault from say somewhat south of Parkfield to around San Bernardino. What shaking there is in the area is more related to a new fault forming north of the Garlock fault zone called the White Wolfe fault which will connect over to the Sierra Nevada fault zone.

Anyone thinking that things will get taken care of by a lumbering, reactive monolith like the Red Cross or FEMA are in for one hell of a very ugly lesson.

FEMA is, as I understand it, not really designed to provide direct immediate aid as much as they are designed to provide resources for the states and other agencies. They have in the past helped with more long term aid such as people who are going to need housing for weeks/months after, but they haven't in the past been used as an immediate responder. The idea has been for the states and local authorities to be the first line responders and FEMA is supposed to get shit in the pipeline to them as needs dictate. It seems in this case that the local authorities were completely without a clue and very quickly threw their hands in the air and were wondering why FEMAman wasn't flying down to the rescue. At least that is the impression I got from the various local Louisana politicians on TV. They seem to be in a big hurry to shift the focus and the blame away from the resposibility they have to their people.

I read a report today that said practically NONE of the towns and parishes surrounding New Orleans had any communications whatsoever with other towns and parishes for nearly two days after the hurricane passed. I would bet they could have had communications relatively easily. If I were a mayor, I would have grabbed some ham operators and set up two networks, one operating inside my jurisdiction and one for interfacing with neighboring jurisdictions. The first network would be involved in trying to assess and prioritize damage and needs while the second network would be involved in seeing if I could provide resources to neighboring areas and making my needs known if they had resources that could help me. Later, I would set up a third net to interface regional jurisdictions with NGOs so more resources could be coordinated/brought to bear.

Such a net could be set up with an HF tranciever and a generator. (forget VHF/UHF, no repeaters, you need something that can work beyond line-of-sight). But that is just one part of the problem. There were entirely too damned many people left in the city.

I was going to say that I bet the next time people are told to evacuate, they probably will, then I remembered what it I saw concerning life in the shelters and the mess people had to go through in places like Houston to get to a safer area and people might decide that trying to ride the storm out might be better than going through evacuation again.

Any national organization is going to be slow to respond. There needs to be some kind of decentralized organization in place that is loosely affilliated with other organizations in neighboring areas where assessments of damage can be collected and disseminated to government and NGOs. Just having information would fucking help. I am thinking along the lines of amateur radio emergency teams but with maybe just a dose or two of steriods.

Still, after what I have been reading about New Orleans, such a net would probably come up on the air and everyone would be there except the city/county/state government who would be too busy pulling their head out of their ass to find out what fucking frequency they are supposed to be on.

Fuckit, just let the military do it. At least they can make telephones work on a battlefield.

[Kinetic IV]

A 30 ft. storm surge. Everything is underwater for days. Many people evacuated, those left behind got blasted with the ultimate nightmare scenario that left them fighting to survive. Even if you had RACES and other nets planned in advance an event of this magnitude most likely means anything already existing in the zone was taken out. Your planning is shot.

So it sounds like a good idea to have outsiders come in and save the day. But man, talk about pick your poison? Do you let an outside volunteer group structured similarily to the Red Cross run it? Go look at some of the Mississippi newspapers online if you want to know the real story of the Red Cross response to Katrina. There's no need to be nice, it downright sucks. So scrap that idea, let's bring in the military. Yeah, they can setup radio nets that work but do you really want the military operating inside the borders of the US? The founding fathers had a little bit of fear about that and wrote up a few things to say Uh, I don't think so. Much of what they wrote 200+ years ago has stood the test of time. Scrapping those ideas or weakening them over two events is foolhardy and downright dangerous. (Tangent: Another Katrina related constitutional fuckup in New Orleans can be found here: http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/opinion/12731059.htm ) So in my opinion the military is not the answer. And that puts us back to square one...and back to the drawing board we go.

One more tangent about the military and radio nets. If the military was so damn good at setting up radio nets, how do you explain this?
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/articles ... ml?cnn=yes

I'm on a rant, I guess I'll shut up now but I've got friends including some MHP troopers who just came back from down there, and some more still down there cleaning things up, some of whom I talk to every day who tell stories that will blow your mind...it's left me a little biased about the whole fucking mess.

[Chai Guy]

Successful recovery is going to happen in those neighborhoods where people are prepared.

yeah, we're fucked.

[geekster]

There was no 30 foot surge in NO. It survived the initial hurricane just fine. It was only the day after when the levees started to give way and it started to flood. Farther east and south, yeah, nothing you can do there. A 30 foot storm surge pretty much kills everything there.

But I have to ask again ... why were people even IN those areas? Why are the poor with no means of personal transport often left to the elements? And then, why is the federal government blamed for that. What the hell do we have state and local governments for in the first place if not for the protection of the local communities?