WAR! What is it good for?

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:44 pm

This is a four part radio programme about the UN, its role in world affairs and the damage the war on Iraq has done,

Of course it is. Most of us have come to expect nothing but.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:59 pm

I'm too busy sneaking in posts and trying to multitask to sit through a 4 part BBC radio program. How about the quick summary instead?

At least with transcripts I can speed read, I have a DVR for TV, but radio just sucks.

THE ORIGINAL DIGIMAN · Post by **THE ORIGINAL DIGIMAN** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:03 pm

war is good for making lots of bloody money and creating lots of new suckers.

they're all Sacrificial.

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 3:11 am

A poem by a friend of mine about oil that is recited in the track Brainwashed by GROOP for you Kinetic, as I see you are a devotee of Kali.

Black Kali's Blood - By Moonus

City towers rose high,
As we sold her black blood.
And she smiles to herself
For our evil, is her good.
It was part of her plan
For she is the destroyer,
She eats all her children
She, the goddess of time.
She stands for the end
Of all we built before,
This is a sacred rite
And the meaning of her law.
Her black blood is fertile
And the hope for renewal
But we suck it all up
And we we burn her dark jewel.

By the way you can read the transcripts on that BBC site, what do ya mean radio sucks? I'm mortified, TV sucks, I don't own one of those hypnotic little boxes.

lurker · Post by **lurker** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:58 am

Brings me and Patience back to an earlier point I think -

'Lazy, apathetic and uninformed'

Which puts me back where I came in, just about.

Why is everyone stupid except you? Why, if you can discover all this enlightening information, can't they?

You put forth that only by thinking like you can someone be informed or care. You begin and end your debate determined to not even hear what the other side is, much less respond to it.

Is it not remotely possible that people, looking at the same information you saw, might've said, 'War is a bad idea, but leaving Hussein in power is a worse idea?'

There is a wealth of information out there--from all manner of sources. An informed opinion can be had from delving into that information--but it will not neccesarily mirror yours--or mine.

Try, just for a moment, to consider that people looked at the information available to them, considered it, and came to a conclusion that was not lazy or apathetic or uninformed, just different from the one you came to.

Can you?

With the Guardian and the NYT, and the BBC and CNN, MSNBC, Indymedia, DU, CBS, Al-Jazeera and countless protesters, professors and performers telling them what to think about this situation they chose to think for themselves.....and they chose to think something different from you.

They bucked the trend, left the herd, went rogue.

Counter their arguments instead of dismissing them as lazy. Listen to their concerns instead of calling them apathetic. Check their sources before calling them uniformed.

And finally, what's worth it, Chimp? What is worth dying for? Whai is worth going to war for?

Liverace · Post by **Liverace** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 7:09 am

Chimp wrote:Simple question. ..Lets have your opinions burners on the big issue right now - W.A.R - most of this planet is at war right now so c'mon lets use our oh so expanded 'freethinking' minds to ponder WTF can be done about this shall we?

What is war good for? Absolutely nothing, except for preserving the essence of humanity.

Without war, we cannot know peace.
Without death, we cannot know life.
Without sorrow, there would be no joy.
Without pain, we would not comprehend pleasure.
Without hate, love would lose its profundity.

You all get the picture. This concept of balance is common to every human belief system, religious or otherwise.

War has been an omnipresent feature of human existence since the Neanderthal first defended his family's cave from a rival clan. It takes place both because of and in spite of the very qualities which make us mortal, fallible, uniquely complex beings. The evolution of our species, our civilization, and our collective conscience owes as much to the experience of war as it does to any other. To deny as much is to deny the essence of humanity, accepting a la carte only the facets that don't offend your sensibilities.

War is an activity, an event, a state of affairs, however dramatic and unpleasant.
Peace is a dogmatic belief, a state of mind, a goal which defines nobility itself and unites the hearts of men.
One does not preclude the other, but rather requires it.

In our journey to adulthood most of us learn that not everything that's good for us is easy, pleasant, or comfortable. As adults we are capable of putting life's many insults and disappointments into context and appreciating even the most appalling for what they contribute. War is but another of these, for what does not kill the body of humanity makes it stronger.

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 7:58 am

Nice to see you back liverace

Dude, I haven't said anyone is stupid - jeez if you read through all the posts here I think you will see that - the 'uninformed, lazy' thing was in direct relation to a statement made by Patience that 60 percent of the public in America believe Saddam was directly involved in 9/11, his words in fact. I don't put out links and other stuff thinking that no one has heard of 'em, I assume some have, some haven't - its just sharing info, in the same way I read Kinetic's links or Patience's or PJ's or anyone's. C'mon, I think everyone is tired of the flaming, it detracts from the points at hand - I have answered all the criticisms you are making earlier and am anxious not to get stuck in a tired attack and defend loop. It would be very dull for all of us if we got back into that crap - you have been outta the game awhile man, check through earlier posts if you like, I am not slamming anyone.

Anyways, gonna read your second post now

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:06 am

Liverace

Your second post - 'war is part of life's natural balance' - the dubious paraphrasing of Nietszche and so on. Nagasaki didn't make 'The body of humanity' stronger, neither did Vietnam, the Balkan conflict or the Jewish holocaust. That statement is specious. War, especially modern warfare, is an aberration. It is isn't part of life's great tapestry to get your legs blown off while trying to scramble out of a ditch, to die of radiation sickness, friendly fire, exposure to depleted uranium or indeed to drop a cluster bomb from 30.000 feet leaving lots of unexploded little packages lying around for children to pick up.

A guy I knew in the Falklands pulled his friend out of a ditch by the arms only to find that the torso stopped at the waist.
Hey, happens all the time huh? Probably made him stronger? No, it fucked with his head and haunted his dreams. Please don't make an argument for the acceptance of war, when we are dealing specifically with an imperialist drive for world domnination.

Anyways

This is quite funny I think, haven't pasted it as or given a link as it isn't online. Its a kind of minutes of a meeting of The United Deities (like the UN but made up of gods) - by a guy called Miles Kington. A talking shop where the top deities get together to discuss the world and never get round to doing anything about it.

1 The chairgod said that he had to say that there didn't seem to be much difference at first sight between modern America and Ancient Rome. They both wated to rule the world, and they both pretended it was for other people's benefit.
2 On a point of order, Mars pointed out that there was no pretence involved. They really believed that their world domination was good for the world.
3 The chairgod said he took his point, but still could not see any major difference between Roman and American empires.
4 Mars said that he was only a simple god of war and that he was not paid to think. Bashing and killing was how he understood the world, and it hurt his head to think beyond that. But even he could see that whereas the Romans were happy to occupy a country and let the natives get on with life, the Americans wanted to change the way of life of the people they conquered, forcing their subjects to drink fizzy cola drinks and eat a sort of beef mush in a bun. Which made a great deal of money for the Americans and ruined the health of the subject races.
7 An inca god who did not give his name said he was still furious at the misuse of the word 'coca' by the coca-cola company. The coca leaf came from an old Peruvian plant which gave the miserable little Peruvians a little pleasure in their miserable lives, and to have the name of this extremely powerful foodstuff hijacked by a firm making a dreary, brown, sugary fizzy drink was something that, personally, made him see red.
8 The chairgod said that if there was one thing that coca - cola was good at it was bringing lawsuits against criticism, and he hoped the Inca god was well insured against that sort of thing, or at least prepared to take spectacular revenge. There was laughter.
9 The Indian god Vishnu said that imperialism was a two way thing. The British had ruled India for two hundred years. The result should have been that the subjugated Indians now ate British food. Instead all the British now ate Indian food.
10 Well, said Mars, perhaps the Americans too will end up eating the food of the people they conquer. Did anyone know what they ate in Iraq?
11 The chairgod said he didn't quite follow. The American national dish was pizza. Had the Americans ever conquered Italy?
12 Not really, said the catholic god, but the Italians had surely conquered America. There was laughter.
13. The anglican god inquired whether the mafia were a religious lot. Did they pray much?
14. Yes, they did, replied the catholic god, but they tended to ask for things he did not feel he could grant. In any case, this was all confidential...

An on it goes, maybe we could expand on this idea folks on another thread, might be fun?

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:51 am

War gives some people comfort -- "at least we're doing something about it."
War gives some people a sense of purpose.
War gives some people a helluva a lot of money.
War gives some people entertainment.
War gives some people cravings for red meat, suger and tobacco.
War gives some people clarity.

When you solve the problems of human nature, you will have solved the problem of war.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 10:19 am

Chimp, I loved the poem, thank you.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:22 am

thought you might like this chimp

came from part of my site.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/digicastipv7/NAZIS.htm

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:40 am

got this from glam_daddy's site

http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/s ... msfeld.htm

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:41 am

Well, Chimp, I made it through the beginning of this thread and there was no page three breasted girl.

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

PJ · Post by PJ » Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:52 am

Bob wrote:...three breasted girl...

St. Gwen Teirbron
(born c. AD 499)
(Welsh-Gwen, Latin-Candida, English-Wite)

Born: c. AD 499 in Brittany
Died: c. AD 550 at Whitchurch Canonicorum, Dorset

Princess Gwen the Triple-Breasted was one of the daughters of King Budic II of Brittany. She was known to the French as St. Blanche, and sometimes, in written Latin, as Alba Trimammis. She married twice, first to Fracan, a cousin of King Cado of Dumnonia, by whom she was mother of Saints Wethnoc, Iacob and Winwaloe. Hence the reason for her being born with three breasts was revealed. Together they crossed the Channel to escape a pestilence that was ravaging the Dumnonian countryside, and settled at PlouFracan in Domnonée. Gwen later bore Fracan a daughter, Chreirbia, also.

After Fracan's death, Gwen married Eneas Ledewig (the Breton) and became the mother of St. Cadfan. Gwen was twice kidnapped by Anglo-Saxon pirates and carried off to England. Each time, however, she escaped by walking back across the Channel to Brittany. In the twilight of her life, she retired to Whitchurch Canonicorum (Dorset) in Eastern Dumnonia. Here she lived for many years in her small hermitage, before the Saxons had their revenge at last, ransacked her home and murdered her. St. Wite's shrine remains there still in the church built over her grave. It was one of only two in the whole of Britain to survive the Reformation. St. Gwen Teirbron (Triple-Breasted) should not be confused with other St. Gwens: the Queen of Elmet, St. Gwen ferch Brychan Brycheiniog and the Queen of Cerniw, St. Gwen ferch Cynyr Ceinfarfog (Fair-Beard).

(per Britannia.com)

JohnnyB · Post by **JohnnyB** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:23 am

Are you able to? Read this:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/Gues ... 1012.shtml

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 4:16 am

Well i've made mention of this before.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/storie ... TE=DEFAULT

Imagigrl · Post by **Imagigrl** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:10 am

We can do no good without balance. A man's perspective is as necessary as a woman's in order to see the entire picture. But who can we trust to be open, brave, and true? Someone who doesn't keep secrets or weapons of things for the purpose of hurting another. Someone who's a protectorate but not an abuser. Someone who gives more than takes. Someone humble enough to accept defeat, but keep working toward the same goal of helping make the world healthy and natural again. Someone who doesn't rely on a slogan or a jingle to get a message across. Someone with simpler needs and no desire for excessive, competative luxuries. Someone who will answer a question from the people without first consulting an aide's opinion or knowing beforehand what the question will be. Somone with a good and honest work ethic and who doesn't believe in being part of some club, society, or community is needed to do what's good for the world. A real representative of the people. Or, um, is that what we already have? Are the world's leaders representative of what's wrong with us? Are the youth of today acting out because of it? Just be a good person and give to those in need what you can and when you can. Smile and hug and give love. Stop a striking hand, if you can, before it makes contact with another. Don't judge... just give and heal. We are all capable and copable. We don't need a leader, a politician, or a messiah to take care of us. We need each other. Yes, this is all just an idealist viewpoint. You're entitled to your opinion so share it. I'm going to go help someone who needs help. I'm giving love whether one asks for it or not. I'm still smiling and hanging on. I'm not quitting this world or turning my back on it... and I'm not voting. I'm just doing. Are you?

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:45 pm

Good stuff, Imagigrl! Thanks.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:15 pm

I'm still smiling and hanging on. I'm not quitting this world or turning my back on it... and I'm not voting. I'm just doing. Are you?

Excellent !

I said the same on the dioxine list durring election week and got blasted.

I am so glad to see someone else feel and do the same as I.

I strongly feel that the only way that this world will be any better than it is right now is by doing. Not voting.

voting (and please don't missunderstand me or feel insulted) is for the naive. It is a pacifier for and to the masses. Distributed by the minority...the so called "powerful".
Created so that they can do whatever they need to do to keep the "so called power" in thier hands and controlled.

I do what i can to explain at least this much to others that tell me to vote.
This is what my "DO" is. I figure the sooner they realize that voting is a farce the sooner the people will gain control of the world, and in turn run by the people thus giving the world a greater chance of stabillity peace.

That is all I can do so far. If anyone has any other ideas fro me to accomplish more, let me know.

Wow. I wish i could have put it as well as you did though.

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:08 pm

Hey De Facto,

Since I'm not on the Dioxine list I'll take the time to blast you here. People who don't vote are completely buying in to the current system. The powers that be WANT you to be silent at the polls. Go on all the protest marches you want - they don't have to listen. Throw a rock at Starbucks, they'll call you a terrorist and lock you away. But if a couple of hundred more people had gotten off their butts in Florida, we wouldn't be stuck with Dubya now. (The 1994 GOP takeover of Congress was a result of a very low voter turnout as well, not the "nationwide shift to the right" as portayed in the media.)

A government by, for, and of the people can only work if the people take an interest in civic society. The powers that be want people apathetic, uneducated, and cynical. (Why do you think education keeps getting cut attacked? Why are "educated elites" so regularly blasted in the media?)

Try imagining what our society would be liked if everyone who didn't like the system actually went out and voted Green, or Libertarian, or whatever.
And once people really "gain control" De Facto, how are they going to decide what happens next? You planning on getting 300 million Americans to all decide everything by consensus? It didn't work out too well in Russia when the people took control without a democratic system in place.

I'm not saying that activism isn't important -the work of an individual activist probably does accomplish more than your average Joe who votes for his party and does nothing else- and I certainly don't think that our system of government and elections are anywhere near the best. But peaceful change really boils down to the ballot box, and I haven't heard of a better system yet.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:19 pm

KellY wrote:Hey De Facto,

Since I'm not on the Dioxine list I'll take the time to blast you here. People who don't vote are completely buying in to the current system. The powers that be WANT you to be silent at the polls. Go on all the protest marches you want - they don't have to listen. Throw a rock at Starbucks, they'll call you a terrorist and lock you away. But if a couple of hundred more people had gotten off their butts in Florida, we wouldn't be stuck with Dubya now. (The 1994 GOP takeover of Congress was a result of a very low voter turnout as well, not the "nationwide shift to the right" as portayed in the media.)

A government by, for, and of the people can only work if the people take an interest in civic society. The powers that be want people apathetic, uneducated, and cynical. (Why do you think education keeps getting cut attacked? Why are "educated elites" so regularly blasted in the media?)

Try imagining what our society would be liked if everyone who didn't like the system actually went out and voted Green, or Libertarian, or whatever.
And once people really "gain control" De Facto, how are they going to decide what happens next? You planning on getting 300 million Americans to all decide everything by consensus? It didn't work out too well in Russia when the people took control without a democratic system in place.

I'm not saying that activism isn't important -the work of an individual activist probably does accomplish more than your average Joe who votes for his party and does nothing else- and I certainly don't think that our system of government and elections are anywhere near the best. But peaceful change really boils down to the ballot box, and I haven't heard of a better system yet.

bwwwaaaa,

You totally missed it.

I don't do nor have I and will I ever do any of the above.

And it seems by what I've just read, you may be better served on the Dioxine list.

My aproach works this way.

I level playing fields.

I create non profit groups that introduce children in disadvantaged neighborhoods computers and CAD, C++ and things like that and at the same time how the world is.

That's what I mean by "DO". That's just a second example.
As hard as it is to read this, IMO polotics is for suckers.

PJ · Post by PJ » Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:35 pm

KellY wrote:...You planning on getting 300 million Americans to all decide everything by consensus? It didn't work out too well in Russia when the people took control without a democratic system in place...

FWIW, "The People" didn't take control in Russia. A viscious and violent upstart political party managed to seize power in two cities. But in Czarist Russia those two cities were all that mattered, as most of the rest of the country was peasants, with little choice but to follow along with what happened in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:56 pm

'But if a couple of hundred more people had gotten off their butts in Florida, we wouldn't be stuck with Dubya now. '

Read some Greg Palast. Florida was rigged. I still vote, just in case. Not that i believe it will do any good any longer. The system is corrupt. Any politician that can get him(her)self elected is probably not so much different from the others.

If we want the power to change this world, we have to take the power back into our own hands....

Ooops, the Feds are watching me again. Better shut up now.

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:56 pm

Kelly

you are absolutely right and completely on the money - not voting is fucking ridiculous, women and men died for that right

Use it or lose it

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:59 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:'But if a couple of hundred more people had gotten off their butts in Florida, we wouldn't be stuck with Dubya now. '

Read some Greg Palast. Florida was rigged. I still vote, just in case. Not that i believe it will do any good any longer. The system is corrupt. Any politician that can get him(her)self elected is probably not so much different from the others.

If we want the power to change this world, we have to take the power back into our own hands....

Ooops, the Feds are watching me again. Better shut up now.

Another sucker is born everyday. It was the electoial count and supreme court that put the current pres in power.

This is nothing new. it has been this way for several hundred years now.
get rid of the elctorial and have hillary run for president and i'll vote.

otherwise. voting is for suckers.

IMO of course.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 5:00 pm

Nice to see you Chimp.

alice · Post by **alice** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 5:57 pm

PJ wrote:FWIW, "The People" didn't take control in Russia. A viscious and violent upstart political party managed to seize power in two cities. But in Czarist Russia those two cities were all that mattered, as most of the rest of the country was peasants, with little choice but to follow along with what happened in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

your great grandfather the cossack raped my great grandmother the jewess.

look what you did!!!!

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:03 pm

get rid of the elctorial and have hillary run for president and i'll vote.

I should have said 'maybe' I'll vote. with the methods of voting that are available today in the U.S and the ignorance involved. it's all running on very murky warter.

alice · Post by **alice** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:09 pm

this is the only thing i don't agree with george carlin on.

of course, if we had someone decent to vote for.....

Kinetic II · Post by **Kinetic II** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:12 pm

Ballot boxes. Democracy. Bullshit.

Democracy is printed every couple of weeks at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing when they create wonderful ballots that commonly look like $100 bills. If you don't have pictures of Ben to give away, your voice isn't heard. If you have a few of them to give out as campaign contributions, you suddenly have a voice...and the more money the louder it gets. It's the daily reality that I see and have now since 1997 when I started bitching about political issues. Be it federal, state, or local, money is everything.

WAR! What is it good for?

Re: WAR! What is it good for?

Are you allowed to change your mind?

Men or women... ruling the world.

Re: Men or women... ruling the world.

Apathy Uber Alles

Re: Apathy Uber Alles

Re: Apathy Uber Alles

Re: Apathy Uber Alles

Re: Apathy Uber Alles

Re: Apathy Uber Alles