Gear Heads, Deep Thinkers, and The Clock of the Long Now

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:09 pm

I’ve had an old Singer sewing machine for a few years... found it buried up in the barn after I moved to where I am now. My brother and I, with surprisingly little effort, restored it to “good as new” working condition, refinished the wood cabinet, and by way of the serial number dated it to 1883. When I placed my foot on the treadle for the first time and gave a push, those shafts and cams sprang back to life with the same mechanical music as the day it was first brought home, most likely to some eager-eyed budding young seamstress, over one hundred twenty-odd years ago.

Since this little machine found it’s way to me, I’ve done a lot of thinking while working at it. The simple, beautiful elegance of all those parts going back and forth, up and down, and round and round in perfect synchronicity have let me slip into a state of deep thought on numerous occasions. Those thoughts have ranged from sex to the cyclic nature of existence and spirituality, and how all of it might tie into a universe that was around for an indescribably long time before me, and yet I am inseparable from. I learned to sew on this machine and hope it keeps giving joy to many others long after I'm dead and gone. And with just a little love along the way, I reckon it will.

Ok... now that being said, I read an article tonight in the latest issue of Discover... November 2005, page 29, an article called “Time Machine”. Its about, primarily, a guy named Danny Hillis and his quest (working along with other like minds) to create a mechanical binary computer driven clock, called the “The Clock of the Long Now”. This clock would not only keep accurate time for 10,000 years, but also still be around then and be able to be understood and read as a clock, regardless of what system of timekeeping may be in use when viewed.

At best, perhaps this thread could be a place to parse out and share thoughts on this wondrous contraption and how it might speak to who we are, both individually and as a whole, and why we do the things we do. And the importance of the intent behind our actions...

Or at the very least, it will be a heads up about an article on a really cool gizmo that goes back and forth, up and down, and round and round.

And I should add that if this guy, Danny Hillis, isn’t already a burner, he ought to be.

chadbalster · Post by **chadbalster** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:05 am

i love the design on the body of it; of course it runs for 10,000 years.

There ARE ways to do good quality work...that keeps on going, and going and going.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:02 am

Ms chat noir,nice thread. I hope as you do that it can be just the place that you describe. Unfortunately, the really technical stuff can be pretty taxing or difficult to follow. I can follow mechanical stuff, but can't grasp imaginary numbers,,,like the square root of negative zero??whatever.

I hope that interest doesn't fall to zero because of the "dryness" of the subject. Last night I contacted a relative in Cambridge at the Cavendish Laboratory [founded by Maxwell] He's going to get me some feedback on Tom Bearden's work [the Megabrain] Maybe I'll have something interesting to post.
Dan

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:20 am

Yeah, on the surface the subject could be dry, but if you dig up the article in Discover and look at the pictures of the finished second prototype these guys have made, you'll be amazed. This thing is a work of art, man. Being as I used to be a CNC Machinist and am now a blacksmith, I'm all the more interested in how this thing melds high-tech machining with simple mechanical actuation. The article's not online, else I’d have posted a link to it here. I'd love to actually see it in operation firsthand and had I only known... I probably drove right by the machine shop where it's being built after leaving San Francisco post burn this year.

If you like things that go click and whirrrrrr, with lots of gears and levers, then this clock project should be an interesting thing to follow. I know of a few folks on this board who'd get a kick out of it anyway.

psst.... and Dan... I'm a boy cat....

Though this does seem to be a common misconception. Not to mention that I sort of leaned any readers that direction with the speculation on the "seamtress" in the first paragraph.

Martiansky · Post by **Martiansky** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:40 am

LeChatNoir wrote:And I should add that if this guy, Danny Hillis, isn’t already a burner, he ought to be.

Maybe you can email him and tell him about BM if he doesn't already know about it.

psst.... and Dan... I'm a boy cat....

(giggles)

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:49 am

OOOOPS, sorrry. Yes the "seamstress" did lead me astray a bit. I guess I need to be more careful.
I'm a bit familiar with CNC. I LIKE it. I have an old Logan, what a dinosaur.

One observation on the clock. Actually more than one. The clock is elegant. The clock is neat. But, the plinth roller depends on friction at the axle. Those surfaces won't maintain the same finish or co-efficient of friction for a very long time. Picture both pieces being made out of dry ice. The roller wouldn't roll, it would slide. The axle has the smallest area of the two. I'd be willing to bet that after a few hundred years, the axle and track would be polished to where the co-efficient of friction would fall off too much.
I worked with an OLD single spindle Traub at one time. It's amazing what wears out after a few million cycles.
The clock is definitely elegant but it does rely an friction and contact. Friction and contact do imply wear, albeit slow wear. Even if all the parts are 1 million on the C scale, 10,000 years is a LONG time.
I like the clock and I applaud their efforts.
Dan

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:24 pm

Interestingly enough, I thought the same things at first reading the blurb at the starting page. But after reading the article, I found that the creators were taking this into account, both with the idea that the clock should be able to be repaired with simple technology, and that it is a mechanical binary computer... meaning that the cams operate sliders that are either in the “1" or “0" position. The final version is planned to be around 60 feet tall, so the pins would be (I’m scaling from memory here) around 12" in diameter. Lots of room to wear. Plus this thing is working on a different timeline than what we’re used to. Imagine a clock from a tiny insect’s point of view. If your entire life was only 8 months long to the creatures that built the clock, then what the clock counted as minutes might to you seem like days. So this thing is moving very very slowly.

I’ve got to go back and reread the article in a day or two, since I may not be remebering things exactly right. I was just so excited about it last night, I wasn’t even sure I could write a coherent post. I don’t know what excited me more... the psychological and spiritual implications that this thing might amass as the millennia tick on (assuming it works), or the shear Rube Goldberg-eschquality of it and the fact that the 9' tall prototype works as planned.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:51 pm

At best, perhaps this thread could be a place to parse out and share thoughts on this wondrous contraption and how it might speak to who we are, both individually and as a whole, and why we do the things we do. And the importance of the intent behind our actions...

Supposedly there is a working prototype in England somewhere. You might take your idea and run it past Jim Mason (yes, the BORG 2 Jim Mason) to see what he suggests. He's been heavily involved in the Long Now Project for some time.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:03 pm

I've been following the project for a while. 10,000 years is not very long in a geological perspective, and I'm concerned about the site they've chosen to locate this. Mountains are geologically active in the short term. The basin and range area is geologically active. I'm not sure if they've taken this into account when deciding where to locate. Yellowstone is not that far away. Furthermore, while no one will believe it now, we will face another impending ice age in the next 10,000 years. It's quite possible that this entire area will be under a thousand feet of ice by the end of that time. Personally I think they should build many clocks and disperse them across the globe to ensure that one makes it to 10,000 years from now. I like this quote:

The fate of really old things leads me to think that the clock should be copied and hidden. The idea of hiding the clock to preserve it has a natural corollary, but it takes Teller, the professional magician, to suggest it without shame: "The important thing is to make a very convincing documentary about building the clock and hiding it. Don't actually build one. That would spoil the myth if it was ever found." In a way, Teller is right.

So, are they really building a clock?

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:13 pm

Supposedly there is a working prototype in England somewhere

That's the one pictured in the Discover article, I do believe. They made mention of it in there at least. When I read about this, I immediately suspected a Burning connection... just seemed to fit. Don’t know Jim, but I’m sure I’d enjoy sitting and talking about things over a beer with him. Anyone involved with such a project I suspect I’d enjoy talking with. Thanks Badger.

So, are they really building a clock?

Yet another thing about it that just intrigues the hell out of me. Beauty, eh?

Oh, and just to clarify... the only thing I've got to do with this thing is being enamored with the idea of it and starting a thread to ponder it with anyone willing to ponder with me. Not sure what idea you’re saying to run by Jim Mason, Badger, but just wanted to make it clear to anyone reading that I’m not claiming anything to do with this other than admiration and intrigue.

Now, if they wanted someone to start forging out parts for another version... they did say “The clock should be maintainable with bronze-age technology”, afterall.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:30 pm

sputnik wrote:I'm not sure if they've taken this into account when deciding where to locate

Said in the article they did. Though I'm not so sure there are many places in North America that are not active in some way. I seem to remember reading about an ancient city in South America that was astronomically aligned, but a few degrees off in all places. Someone related to the story had theorized that it was built when the Earth was at the other end of it’s axis wobble, which seemed to account for the across-the-board misalignment and would date it at +/- 30,000 years old. What caught my attention was that the stones were tightly fit together (as is common for that area) showing great craftsmanship, but they also had a dogbone shape carved into the top of the stones, spanning the joints. In this shape a metal key was cast to hold the joint together. That means not only were they building that long ago, but had a portable smelting ability too. Now I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me, here.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:01 pm

RE: the thought about building it and hiding it. This might have been possible hundreds or thousands of years ago, but with the way the planet is covered with people, it seems to me practically impossible to hide something like this. Short of hiding it deep within some mountain. But the work involved in constructing this hiding place would be monumental and so would have to be ostensibly for something else.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:14 pm

Oddly enough, that is exactly where they say they want to hide it. Inside a mountain, accessable by way of a small opening that would look like a natural opening in the rock, but as you go further in it opens up and becomes more and more obviously man-made. Don’t ask me how... that’s just what the article said. Seems like a grand idea to me. Let’s assume for a moment that this all comes to pass and they really do this. Think of the implications... the weight this thing would carry to some future group of peoples who find it after it’s been long forgotten because of wars/meteors/ice ages/whatever, and say “What the frig is this and why would someone go through such trouble to build it?”

I just love that thought.

check this link to see the mountain they want to bury it in:

http://www.longnow.org/10kclock/Clock_location.htm

falk · Post by **falk** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:17 pm

There's a prototype at the London Science Museum.

If you like clocks, the 4th floor of the London Science Museum is like Mecca -- you must go at least once in your life.

The pocket-watch orrey alone made me want to put on a black ninja suit and rappel down from a skylight some dark night. It's one of the most wonderful things I've ever seen. Now I must go back to see this new clock.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:24 pm

Inside a mountain is a tough place though. It seems all nice and safe, but there will be rock falls from the 'roof'. This thing will need protection from that somehow. There is a mountain that would be suitable, but it's being used...

https://www.cheyennemountain.af.mil/

falk · Post by **falk** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:26 pm

Ok, I just took a good look at the photographs.

Oh

my

fucking

god.

That is one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen. If they build the big one, it will be one of the great wonders of the world. It even has an equation of time compensator.

If they ever make Terry Pratchett's "A Thief of Time" book into a movie, I hope they use this clock in it.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:42 pm

Here's a cool looking water clock. I'm still looking for the one I saw in the Europa center in Berlin. http://www.informallearning.com/galleri ... 0Clock.jpg

Here's the link. It even has a an animated explanation. It sure as hell baffled me when I watched it. It works off siphon???
http://time-flow-clock.de/

blueniteowl · Post by **blueniteowl** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:23 am

Does this “The Clock of the Long Now” remind anyone else of that clock thing in the Dark Crystal?

Martiansky · Post by **Martiansky** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:55 am

sputnik wrote:Inside a mountain is a tough place though. It seems all nice and safe, but there will be rock falls from the 'roof'. This thing will need protection from that somehow. There is a mountain that would be suitable, but it's being used...

https://www.cheyennemountain.af.mil/

Sshhhh.........Cheyenne Mt is where they hide the Star Gate!

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:01 am

Boy- You go away for ONE stinkin' day, and you miss all of this good convo!
The very first thing that comes to mind is The Machine that was on the playa this year....I'd love to construct something along similar lines, but with more Gamelan-like elements. I used to go see the Gamelan ensemble recitals every month when I lived in Ann Arbor, and always left with a headful of amazing ideas.
I'm also reminded of the competition to create "eternal" warning graphics for the Evil Atomic Mojo Project at Yucca Mountain....

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:24 am

The very first thing that came to mind when looking at the clock, from a machine-head point of view, was “The Machine”. The second was the mechanical solar system (called an orrery) in Dark Crystal.

And I'd wondered where you were, robot.

...of the competition to create "eternal" warning graphics for the Evil Atomic Mojo Project at Yucca Mountain....

yeah... that's a bizarre sort of long term thinking, isn't it?

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:29 am

Fine mechanical devices. Nice.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:51 am

Excellent deep time discussion here

http://www.physics.uci.edu/~silverma/benford.html

Came to it while browsing the yucca mountain site.

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:14 am

Anyone want to help me build a big PlayaDevice, like a Gamelan Cuckoo Clock, that plays "Powerhouse*"? Acetylene tank tubular bells, buzzsaw blades and gongs, oh my.

...And wasn't "The Long Now" a Raymond Chandler book? ...."I knew from the instant she walked into my office, ten thousand years from now, that she was trouble- I could still read her warning sign...."

(*The Bugs Bunny-factory-or-big-machine-music)

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:38 am

and one more for you deep time thinkers. Same topic as the previous and a lot of the same discussion. But still good thoughts to ponder.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/Anthro/Anth101/wipp.html

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:45 am

I hope to see ALL of the design solutions on-playa next year. Maybe it's just me, but I find all of those concepts ATTRACTIVE. You want scary? A row of the X-shaped scarecrows on the hilltops, from Planet Of The Apes. Now THOSE were spooky. And so simple!

Gear Heads, Deep Thinkers, and The Clock of the Long Now

Gear Heads, Deep Thinkers, and The Clock of the Long Now

sacred geometry

Re: Gear Heads, Deep Thinkers, and The Clock of the Long Now

Machines