New Future Attending Seeking Some Advice.

DiesIrae · Post by **DiesIrae** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:42 pm

I find this festival to be one of the most interesting things I have ever come accross. My cousin Patrick got me on the trail on The Man when i was 15. I am now 18 and it is still on my mind. I would love to attend this event and I truly plan to, but my question is this: I am not very artisticly inclined when it comes to the physical art, but I love Philosophy. Could my theme tent be based on philosophy itself? A place where people can come to discuss views?

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:41 pm

Hello DiesIrae...

I like your idea of a "theme tent" rather than an entire camp. Could be a good approach for your first year. My first year, I just walked around in complete awe. I was much more able to get into it the second time around.

As far as the art goes, there’s a multitude of ways to do it. Some like it large, but I prefer to make small, fill-in-the-cracks type of things. And sometimes the best art is not even a physical thing. As to the philosophy, we did something very much like that last year. Our camp, consisting of six core members and a dome, took on the name “Camp Junto” (pronounced Hoon-toe and named after the “Junto” started by Benjamin Franklin, and not in any way related to the “Junto Society”which we found out about later). We were not a registered theme camp and probably never will be. Seems that for our situation, underground is better, as it keeps things more intimate and happening by chance and synchronicity.

You’d be surprised how many people just wandered in as they strolled by and heard a lively discussion going on. And since the dome was our home also, the talks would just spring up at random... no set time for it. Our only rule was that you can’t get mad. If you got mad, you were taking it too seriously and had to go do the dishes instead of play. Nobody got a time-out, by the way, and we had a lot of really great conversations.

Yeah... the playa is a good place to find good conversations.

Welcome and I hope these ideas help, and yes, by all means, the answer to your question

Could my theme tent be based on philosophy itself? A place where people can come to discuss views?

is Yes!!!!

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:42 pm

That sounds good.

You know, one of the characters in Puccini's La Boheme was a philosopher, and I believe Philosophy is represented among the Grecian Muses. You might want to explore those angles, too.

Personally, though, I'd advise against doing a theme camp for your first Burn. But doing a Philosophy-based interactivity would probably be a good thing, since the art doesn't require bringing a lot of stuff to organize (and consequently break down/malfunction).

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:48 pm

If you build it, they will discuss...but I'm not sure how you'd get people to discuss particular topics. Maybe a sign or something indicating what your camp is about. Maybe you or yourself could lead moderated discussions. Maybe just the overall camp theme/look/feel will draw in the philosophers.

Oh, and, don't sweat your first year too much. I advise most new people to just go the first year and figure out what you want to do in the years that follow...

Mister Jellyfish Mister · Post by **Mister Jellyfish Mister** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:55 pm

Welcome home, DiesIrae.

In my first year, I really tried to let the theme guide me when it was announced, and tried to find a way to make what I wanted to do anyway play nicely with it. When they do finally announce next year's theme, you may already be well on your way to building what you want, but if you allow it to inspire you along with some of the discussion here, it can't hurt.

I used to tend bar at a sports bar but don't care for sports. As soon as I shut up, nobody could tell. I learned that people were happier when I just listened really well to their views on sports. How about a big costume that somehow says "Tell my your philosophy"?

Your friend is right, you sound ready to me.

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:48 am

It was a revelation of sorts to me that Burning Man was NOT a collection of "mostly artists"....There is more creativity P.S.I . in Black Rock City than anywhere else on the planet, probably, but only a small proportion of those that I've met there are full- or even part-time practicing artists, artisans or craftsperson out in the Default. Philosophy is equal to Art in "participant points", to be sure, and you're definitely on the right track as my esteemed colleagues stated above.
See you out there.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:16 am

The Muses: Euterpe (music)
Calliope (epic poetry)
Clio (history)
Erato (lyric/love poetry)
Melpomene (tragedy)
Polyhymnia (sacred poetry)
Terpsichore (dancing)
Thalia (comedy)
Urania (astronomy)

from the wiki

I do look forward to people singing to their faux fur coats...

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:35 am

Hmmmm....EXACTLY enough Muses to name the ring-roads.....Coincidence? I think NOT.

DiesIrae · Post by **DiesIrae** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:57 pm

Thanks you very much for you responses. While this may be my first time attending the Playa in physical defintion, I have lived there my entire life it seems in my own mind. My cousin, Patrick, has told me so much about it, and the way he describes it to me seems like heaven on earth. I would really like to have some sort of philosophy based camp/tent (since I will most likely be a lone attender). I have some (though limited) artistic ability, and I thought maybe of decorating with busts of Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, and other well known scholars. I also had an idea to build an area for rigorous debate (debate, not arguement) and area for people to just share views, and another for people who want to go deep into the topics of the world and seemigly get lost there for hours. Maybe have each area set up with a table, the discussion area with some comfy furniture, debate with a large table and a time clock for a organized debate. I will not allow debates to become heated to the point of violence or name calling...that is not a debate, but badgery. I thought of having a few random people that come along be a panel for the organized debate and judge the "winner" of the debate. I'd bring some small gifts as "trophies". I would appreciate all ideas and feedback.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:15 pm

Okay, take this with a huge lump of salt, because I'm just not good with philosophy, but you've just mentioned a string of dead white men. I'm not interested in a bunch of moldy old greeks. Nor would I be happy with 19th century sexual misfits like Kirkeguard and Nietzche. (It's amazing how much philosophy you can get into when you have someone else doing the laundry.) I don't want to say, don't follow your heart, don't do philosophy, but can you get something or someone more womanly and more contemporary. I don't know if Patrick Califia is actually a philosopher, but as a sexual agitator really really changed my worldview for the better.

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:52 pm

Just come.
I hope I get a chance to talk to you. I'll be at one of the 2:30 and something intersections, I get there Monday and snag a corner (my second Burn this year, and I feel like a veteran! lol)
I could talk about Tomas Aquinas all week.
The shock and awe has started to wear off, and I feel I may be able to socialize and interact more now rather than jus walking around with my mouth open.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:41 pm

DiesIrae wrote:the way he describes it to me seems like heaven on earth.

AIGH! Expectations Alert!!!

Major big red neon tip in bold type: Lose the expectations. They along with loose glitter and feather boas should be put in the "DO NOT BRING" category.

Trust me, it will not be what you're expecting. Concentrate on developing your concept and come bereft of pre-suppositions.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:23 am

theCryptofishist wrote: dead white men. .

Racist.

Life-ist.

Gender-nazi.

What does it matter what thier life status is, their gender, or their color? What matter is the thought and writings they produced.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:26 am

Scuuzi, you twit. It matters to me because they don't speak to my experience. What use is philosophy if it's not useful?

I did say take with a lot of salt.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:52 pm

theCryptofishist wrote: It matters to me because they don't speak to my experience.

I thought philosophy was supposed to transcend expereince. A search for the eternal verities as it were. If everything were to be expereinced based, we would be so atomized, we couldn't even decide which country to bomb (for example.).

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:55 pm

And that's a descartetian phallacy, imho. The idea that eternal verities are separate from specific experiences.... and somehow men with leasure time get to be more eternal that the rest of us.

YMMV

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:16 pm

Yes but to discount the expereinces and the observations of a human being, merely based on the color of their skin, strikes me as the very sort of thing that you would be against, but only if "white" is replaced by [generic descriptor of a category of humans smaller than the human race].

In other words, it's a two way street.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:55 pm

theCryptofishist wrote: The idea that eternal verities are separate from specific experiences.... and somehow men with leasure time get to be more eternal that the rest of us.

"Eternal" is a word man developed to make us feel like maybe we aren`t just a transient life form strutting and fretting our fleeting moments away, born from, and returning to the terra firma in a swirling cosmos with no particular meaning....
IMMHO most "eternal verities" are only logical conclusions derived from specific experiences.
"Eternal" is a man made concept, to think that anything in this universe would continue changless forever is folly. "Philosophy" also is man made and therefore both fallible and relative to our specific experiences, and subject to change and interpretation with our individual experiences.
The truly exciting thing about Philosophy is and has been the fact that we as a species
are able to step away from ourselves and question our very existence and why we are what we are.
And, with the phenomenal growth of information technology, I think we will see truly amazing new "inner discoveries" in the very near future. Comparing notes has always been the key to more complete discoveries. Eternal Verities?...maybe not, but, as timely and relevant as any space program or scientific expedition you could dream up.
My thumbs are up to inner space travel at any speed.
Question:
If we don`t need someone to tell us who and why we are,
Why do so many of us allow the few to do just that?
Is human nature really that far removed from the other nature?

Now if I just had a little more leisure time, I could figure it all out.

I hope I see you in 2006

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:00 pm

Arrrrgggghhhh! Look, I've lived in the concensus reality as majorly defined by white men of a certain philosophical tradition for 41 years and most of that those philosophical traditions helped to alienate me from myself. I've done that and found out that it isn't for me. I'm not saying that everyone has to have my experience, but that if you don't include my experience than it simply isn't "true" for me and that I will not participate in this project. I wasn't telling the op not to include the persons who move him, but encouraging him to reach out further than that particular pile of moldy greeks.
Cry reverse discrimination all you like, the fact remains that there is no shortage of people who can "do" socrates for you.

And you are a passive agressive pendantic blatherer who's asking for a plonking...

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:47 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Arrrrgggghhhh! Look, I've lived in the concensus reality as majorly defined by white men of a certain philosophical tradition for 41 years and most of that those philosophical traditions helped to alienate me from myself. I've done that and found out that it isn't for me. I'm not saying that everyone has to have my experience, but that if you don't include my experience than it simply isn't "true" for me and that I will not participate in this project.

At the risk of further rattling your cage(tank),Fishy,

I agree with alot you say and I honor your views. You seem to be very intelligent.
And,
While it`s true that stuffy old white men and stale greeks seem to have dominated the field of philosophy for various cultural reasons-some of which may have been "sexist" in nature, I don`t think you can blame a field of study soley for your feelings of "alienation". . .and, I don`t think you can separate your "experience" so completely from the "human" experience.
I don`t think the OP was trying to exclude any particular "school of thought" from their discussion...
And I would surely shy away from some
trite awful review of old crap from some know it all lecturing bore.
But I think someone with disparate views like yourself and myself, might be instrumental in reshaping the "status quo" paradigms of modern male
dominated society. I for one would love to hear your views and exceptions, and think they should be heard.
It`s hard to get screwed, when you won`t sit still for it.
And thanks for NOT sitting still for it. True change is only possible if we speak our True minds.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:59 pm

EvilDustBooger wrote:
At the risk of further rattling your cage(tank),Fishy,

No problem.

EvilDustBooger wrote:I don`t think you can blame a field of study soley for your feelings of "alienation". . .and, I don`t think you can separate your "experience" so completely from the "human" experience.

Whoops, I wasn't trying to separate from the human experience. I was just trying to get at how furking old it gets to have to fight that same battle over and over. I certainly don't want to have to do the very carefull qualification of every single statement so that I have a long meandering post where it seems like I can't make a simple declarative statement because I'm afraid of stepping on someone's toes. And while I don't blame the greeks for my feelings of alienation, it is none the less true that we got certain cultural traits from them that haven't always done justice to the full expression of human experiences.
I am feeling particularly frustrated with the servile mountaineer because I thought I'd been pretty careful to say that this was my experience, not some down from senai declaration that was good for all time, and the multiple picking over minor points plus attributing stuff to me that wasn't what I was saying is just irritating. I mean, am I permitted to have my own experience and opinions or should I just run all posts by bs for his approval.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:04 pm

btw, edb, I didnt' even see your first post until I was replying to the 2nd. So none of my 2 up post was directed at you.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:11 pm

Thanks Fishy.
I`d love to hear you in a philosophical debate.
You express yourself very effectively.
And I understand why they "off"ed Socrates....though I still marvel at some of the things he said.

DiesIrae · Post by **DiesIrae** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:56 pm

People...please chill. I mentioned Socrates and other "dead white men" because they are well known and I really just wanted to give a brief idea of what I have pictured in my mind's eye. Now, another thing, while I may have a vocabulary that is more than adequate to write my collegiate papers and write NUMEROUS reports for my superior officers in the military, I do not find it helpful to use dollar words to decribe something or get my point across when a ten cent word will do... I once heard a great poet say that "brevity is the best way to paint a picture in one's heart". My point...while I'm sure you are more intelligent than I am, Sometimes you can seem like you are trying to show off when you talk like that, to some people it may even sound condescending. My camp will be based on pihlosophy as an art. It will include those old "dead white men" and soooo much more. Silvia Plath for example...my heroine you could say will deffinately be represented...BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CAMP ITSELF. I said I wanted busts of the "dead white men" not that you ahve to talk about their ideas or philosophies. I want to hear YOUR philosophy, YOUR ideas... that's the entire point of my camp.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:26 pm

If thou continuest to take delight in idle argumentation thou mayest be qualified to combat with the sophists, but will never know how to live with men.

Socrates

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:56 am

He who tells the truth will be chased from nine villages.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:58 am

DI--sorry that your thread got hijacked for such a pointless circular arguement, especially as it seems that you already had the advice I wanted to give. Come to teh burn, have a good time and do a project you're passionate about.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:13 am

Hey crypto,

I wasn't trying to get you annoyed. But when it comes to stamping out political correctness, the blyslv is on a low sodium diet. Plus having met you, more or less, in person, I figured that I could be a little more straightforward and direct. But basically I was just engaging in a little gentle poking, a time honored pursuit both ehre an many other places on the web. I do not mean to negate your experience or stifle your voice. But sometimes I will question or challenge what you say. If you perceive that as passive agressive behavior and want to plonk me, so be it. I prefer to call it discourse. When one makes strong statements, one should be able to explain them without rancor.

And I challenged you on the use of the term "dead white men" just as I would have if you had said "micks" "niggers" "kikes" or any other word of negation and marginalization. Those terms all represent hard habits of thought, habits that lead to dehumanization and the commission of atrocity. I think you used the term "dead white men" somewhat in jest and in a light hearted vein. Likewise I attempted to respond to you in similar fashion.

Anyway, that is all I have to say right now.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:50 am

And I would like to personally apologize for
my superfluous use of esoteric nomenclature.

I usually try to remain slightly abstruse at the risk of
appearing obscurantic or being accused of obliquity.

I know how irritating that gets.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:56 am

Just because I'm an obnoxious son of a gun doesn't mean I can't wonder about someone who wants to lead discussions, and then tells people to "chill out" and use different language. I mean it does make me wonder.

Conversation, discussion, talking: -- AYE!!! t'is a slippery road indeed, they can take you places you never would have thought of on you own.

What a glory!