Microsoft dollars for burning man?

TRF · Post by **TRF** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:42 pm

Too disturbing...

Has the LLC licensed the Burning Man name to Microsoft?
Seems implausible, but the following facts are seriously
troublesome. Information to the contrary would make me a happy
camper indeed.

XBOX ZERO HOUR, Early November
Microsofts new xbox was released to the world at

"burning man meets E3"

View this exact quote from the following people

John Porcaro, Group Manager, PR Communications of xbox
see it here
http://www.johnporcaro.com/2005/11/burning_man_mee.html

Peter Moore, Corporate Vice President, Worldwide Marketing and
Publishing
see it here
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/669/669110p1.html

Chris Di Cesare, director of Xbox marketing,
see it here
http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000697067435/

I include three of these links to demonstrate that it was clearly
a thought out and specific marketing decision to use the
burningman name in their xbox campaign.
Now, i seem to remember a little thing called Article 3

"Decommodification

In order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks
to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial
sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to
protect our culture from such exploitation. We resist the
substitution of consumption for participatory experience."

?????????????
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Furthermore, from the 2004 Afterburn Report, legal team section.

Intellectual Property

"....and almost every review session seems to reveal at least one
or two sellers attempting to capitalize on the Burning Man name
to sell goods unrelated to the Project.

....We were regularly alerted to variously styled attempts to
throw "Burning Man" or "Black Rock City" parties, which attempted
to use these marks without permission."

(In an attempt to find information about the permission process,
or maybe a list of approved users,I tried to follow up on this
particular passage...)

"....we are working on a web page outlining our policies for all
who seek such information, a task we intend to complete early in
2005. "

well, i couldnt find that website, for now, but would be very
interested to know if someone out there knows where it is.
Whats going on?
Has the Burning Man trademark been licensed to Microsoft for
their promotional campaigns?
Maybe the LLC just dont know about it?

Well, maybe THEY dont, but i doubt this would have slipped the
watchful eyes of Gross & Belsky LLP, who represent Black Rock
City LLC on trademark infringement, and which

"...advises its clients on trademarks and copyrights, registers
trademarks and copyrights for clients, and actively engages in
intellectual property licensing and litigation."

and

"...regularly protects its clients' copyrights and trademarks
from Internet misuse and other infringement."

(source: http://www.gbcounsel.com/practice.htm)

Nor are they asleep at the wheel when it comes to their job, as
evidenced by this excerpt from a letter dated July 30, 2005

Re: Use of trademark “Burning Man” website “www.houseofrave.com”

"Burning Man regularly protects its trademarks from any
unauthorized commercial use. This is very important to all
participants of Burning Man, as one of the event’s principle
rules is against commercialization. Burning Man therefore rarely
allows its trademarks to be utilized in anymanner in connection
with commercial sales. Your use of the Marks violates the Federal
Trademark Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1051 et seq. It isimpermissible to
utilize another’s trademarks in metatags so as to bring traffic
to your website,and similarly it is impermissible to use
another’s trademarks in the manner in which you do. Your actions
also constitute unfair competition and false advertising, in
violation of California’sUnfair Competition Law, Cal. Business &
Professions Code § 17200, and the False AdvertisingLaw, Cal.
Business & Professions Code § 17500."

(source:http://www.nevblog.com/2005/08/burning-man-vs-nev.html)

Furthermore, its not buried so deep in the internet that its
slipped through the net, try googling "burning man" and "desert"
and there it is on page one.

Can we assume that Black Rock City LLC is in bed with microsoft?
Oh dear god, let it not be so, but it certainly seems possible.

Does anyone out there know anything about this.

Again, i apologise for the length of this post, but i had to back
up my argument with examples. Rex Scates i am not...

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:34 pm

I would'nt be suprised at all really?

Apple and IBM do stuff for the org also.

What's wrong with companies like that kissing your butt?

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:37 pm

Oh jeebus christ.

I replied, I highly encourage others to do the same. This is just getting sick.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:41 pm

What's wrong with companies like that kissing your butt?

You still don't fucking get it.

regionalchaos · Post by **regionalchaos** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:43 pm

We took the mantra of Burning Man meets E3. Burning Man is a journey, you go and it's a lifestyle, and you're willing to travel to enjoy that lifestyle. E3 is of course about the incredible immersion you get in games. You bring the two together but you do it for a consumer.

That made me feel dirty inside.

regionalchaos · Post by **regionalchaos** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:01 pm

In the third article originally linked there is a table comparing Burning Man to the XBox 360 release party.

One of the entries contained "Barter economy, very little commerce allowed, random acts of gift-giving strongly encouraged, socialistic, anti-capitalistic bent to festivities" for burning man and "Best Buy will have an on-location kiosk selling Xbox 360s at 9pm PST on November 21; all attendees will be gifted with a limited-edition commemorative Xbox 360 faceplate".

It bothers me in so many ways that Microsoft used BM for commercialism....

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:41 pm

Isotopia wrote:
What's wrong with companies like that kissing your butt?
You still don't fucking get it.

no truer words have been spoken.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:18 pm

joel the ornery wrote:
Isotopia wrote:
What's wrong with companies like that kissing your butt?
You still don't fucking get it.
no truer words have been spoken.

I get it, but the fact of the matter is, these companies are always going to be comming to the org.

The org can take advantage of it and change things.

Ahhh forget it. I think many just dont get it.

regionalchaos · Post by **regionalchaos** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:35 am

DVD Burner wrote:
joel the ornery wrote:
Isotopia wrote: You still don't fucking get it.
no truer words have been spoken.
I get it, but the fact of the matter is, these companies are always going to be comming to the org.

The org can take advantage of it and change things.

Ahhh forget it. I think many just dont get it.

You don't "change things" at a large corporation like Microsoft. Instead, if they see something that interests them, they take your idea then acquire you, or put you out of business by selling what they stole from you at a loss..

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:47 am

regionalchaos wrote:
DVD Burner wrote:
joel the ornery wrote: no truer words have been spoken.
I think many just dont get it.

You don't "change things"

how many does it take to make a gene pool?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:14 pm

That last comment makes me glad I keep screen wipes close by. I had them when needed.

Otisserie · Post by **Otisserie** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:40 pm

I'm not seeing where the BMOrg licenced anything. The Microsoft blogs simply compare their event to Burning Man (incorrectly, I might add). They're not using "Burning Man" in the event title or in their marketing. Trademark law does not give the Org the right to prevent any mention of the words "Burning Man" in any context. Would you want any organization to be able to control the use of language that completely?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:22 am

Otisserie wrote: Would you want any organization to be able to control the use of language that completely?

Remember that french designer watsits montana that wanted to brand the name montana and make the state and any marketing residents use "montana state". Yup, that's "montana state bison jerky" not "montana bison jerky" made from some frenchman...

TRF · Post by **TRF** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:57 am

The Microsoft blogs simply compare their event to Burning Man (incorrectly, I might add). They're not using "Burning Man" in the event title or in their marketing. Trademark law does not give the Org the right to prevent any mention of the words "Burning Man" in any context

Ahh, but this is exactly the issue. I argue that they clearly ARE using it in their marketing. Its not the blogs, which i agree, are individual comparisons and only constitute someones opinion, but rather that "microsoft is calling it burning man meets e3", as seen in the following articles.

www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000697067435/

http://www.activewin.com/awin/comments. ... 14&Group=1

news.com.com/2061-10797_3-5938293.html

news.yahoo.com/s/zd/20051111/tc_zd/165185

www.geekextreme.com/content/view/9242/12/

www.gamespot.com/6136862

www.gaminggroove.com/newsitem.php?id=4022

xbox.gamespy.com/articles/662/662557p2.html

www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3145213&did=1

www.ferrago.com/story/6809

news.cnet.co.uk/gamesgear/0,39029682,39194000,00.htm

www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1885987,00.asp

...amongst many others. In each of these cases, microsoft is specifically mentioned as billing their event as "burning man meets e3". There are too many incidences of this phrase on the web to dismiss this as simply blog based interpretation. Its clearly part of the marketing.

Black Rock City is actively engaged(allegedly) in defending the events name against this exact sort of exploitation.

Hence the issue is so important. If they are NOT getting paid for licensing, shouldnt they be taking action?

Otisserie · Post by **Otisserie** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:54 pm

All of those articles you link to are just interviews in which MS marketing people claim their event is similar to Burning Man. As much as we don't like the comparison, that's not trademark infringement. Notice that they also compare their promotion to "E3" (the Electronic Entertainment Expo), another name they don't own. I could put on an event and compare it to Burning Man, or Mardi Gras, or a Rolling Stones concert, or whatever. When a Lexus ad claims their car is better than a Mercedes, they don't need Chrysler-Damler-Benz permission to use the name "Mercedes".

If the title of the event was "Burning Man Xbox Showdown", then that would be clear infringement. But simply comparing it to BM isn't. Do you think Microsoft would be that stupid?

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:39 pm

while you all debate this, i aldreay posted up a couple of my comments to them. will not mean much, but i just cant let it slide without getting my jab back.

if anyone has other M$ places to comment please tell me, i just feel like spreading that 'ol holliday spirit.

"So, did you hear that many pre-release 360 boxes have overheating problems?"

"I heard that M$ will automatically monitor your on-line gaming activity and sell it to marketing firms?!"

"So this 'advance graphics' thing only works with HDTV? You mean I have to buy an obnoxiously expensive set to see those 'advanced graphics' or it auto-detects and gives me something worse than Donkey-Kong on a first-generation Nintendo box?"

bdeywoo · Post by **bdeywoo** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:20 am

[quote="spectabillis"]while you all debate this, i aldreay posted up a couple of my comments to them. will not mean much, but i just cant let it slide without getting my jab back.

if anyone has other M$ places to comment please tell me, i just feel like spreading that 'ol holliday spirit.

"So, did you hear that many pre-release 360 boxes have overheating problems?"

"I heard that M$ will automatically monitor your on-line gaming activity and sell it to marketing firms?!"

"So this 'advance graphics' thing only works with HDTV? You mean I have to buy an obnoxiously expensive set to see those 'advanced graphics' or it auto-detects and gives me something worse than Donkey-Kong on a first-generation Nintendo box?"[/quote]

FYI
Its estimated 18% of the 360's have the overheating problem and they are currently being sued for it, however this is no different than the problems all the console makers have faced in their first production models (PS2 DRE and laser problems- Xbox hard drive problems)

No they wont be selling your time on-line to marketing firms, they will be selling ads for on-line to advertisers no different than the current X-box live. While waiting for games you will see ads, trailers for movies and such. They will release the demographics to those companies but all personal information handed out is on an opt-in basis, and your given the option when you sign up and in return you can get some extra perks like free d/l's for levels and other stuff.

HDTV is an upgrade, you will still see better graphics on a conventional TV but you wont get 1080p resolution you'll get 480i which is the equivelant of the current DVD's on a regular TV.

As for the problem at hand its a sticky situation but one you have to think Microsoft is well versed in. It's higly unlikely they did not go through the proper channels to do this. This supposed infringement on the burningman name does not look (with the evidence so far introduced) like anything illeagal but it definetly skates close to the edge. Really none of us can know for sure unless the organization speaks up on any corespondence they have had with microsoft and reveals any contracts they may have.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:56 am

If it's not 720p or 1080i (or 1080p) it's not HDTV and it's not worth shelling out megabucks for. 480p is a joke.

I thought about buying the 360...I bought a PlayStation II to hold me over and I'm looking forward to the PS3. My hunch is it's going to kick the 360 to the scrapheap and make a lot of people boo-hoo about how bad they got screwed.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:00 am

Santa.... i want a bicycle for Christmas.

elf's sword · Post by **elf's sword** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:28 am

Saint Nick, i want to associate with beautified souls

elf's ride · Post by **elf's ride** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:30 pm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... rtians.jpg

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:44 pm

oh fucking hell, talk about an overshooting orbit

From now on we only self-medicate ourselves in rhetoric, whine about things without actually stepping up to do ANYTHING? Jeebus christ, people slam on the event and the org and the people and the desert and the soundcamps and the commerce and...

paging dr. benway, dr. benway please...

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:40 pm

shew the rays of the benediction moon.

Dr BENWAYLADEN · Post by **Dr BENWAYLADEN** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:24 pm

Ok who needs the Switchboard

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:48 pm

(offtopic) Why does that avatar seem so appropriate? (/offtopic)

elf's ride · Post by **elf's ride** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:04 am

[quote="Kinetic IV"](offtopic) Why does that avatar seem so appropriate? (/offtopic)[/quote]

It derives from the Sanskrit word avatāra which means "descent" and usually implies a deliberate descent into mortal realms for special purposes.

Microsoft dollars for burning man?

Microsoft dollars for burning man?

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Am I missing something?

Re: Am I missing something?

"like" doesn't count

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