will Arnold let Tookie live?

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:36 am

Kinetic IV wrote: There are lessons sprinkled throughout history of the power that comes from inspiring the youth....and this man has the potential to do that.

Yes. He certainly has that potential...
But, inspire youth to do what?
Play fast and loose with the American justice system?

There is nothing particularly gratifying about cleaning up the mess that these animals leave for us to deal with, but it has to be done.
I hope Arnold does the right thing... move on to a better day with 1 less
monster to bargain with.

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:22 am

(Taking off my Interrogatrix gloves for a moment...)

The question of the minute is...

Why won't they actually test the shotgun - shit, test ALL the evidence they still have - to prove if Williams did the murder or not? There's a lot of evidentiary testing they can do to actually prove this case one way or the other. But they won't do it, and have refused to over and over.

Why? It sure wouldn't be that expensive. And it may just answer the nay-sayers questions. Hell, it might even prove they're either going to kack the wrong person for the murders (the admission would be a political nightmare)… or prove he's the right slimeball and deserves to die. And if it doesn't determine anything either way - leave him where he is.

Right now, there really *is* a "reasonable doubt". So clear up the doubt. Shit.

IF Williams did it - knowing it was a capital crime - to the gurney he should go, regardless of what he's done to "keep kids from gangs", and (because it's the law) regardless of my or anyone elses feelings on Capital Punishment.. Put it this way - were we one of the other "Capital Punishment" countries his head woulda been in a basket a long, long time ago. That he did all this good is wonderful - but it doesn't erase the crime being done or the punishment thereof if he's really guilty. The only real question (which should be solidl answered - since it looks like that may now be possible) is - Did he do it?

And if you don't like Capital Punishment - instead of hanging out at San Quentin and carrying a sign during a fait accompli to get your face on TV or whatever (It's not gonna get the law changed!), work with a lawmaker to (get this concept) GET THE LAW CHANGED. Anything less won't do it.

And my personal feelings on Capital Punishment either way don't make a bit of difference. Not one. It has nothing to do with opinion - and everything to do with THE LAW.

my 2¢...

(Putting the gloves back on...)

bb

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:26 am

EvilDustBooger wrote:additional litigation and the mandatory appeal processes

ya got to keep the lawyers, judges and clerks employed, don't you know.

Magikal · Post by **Magikal** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:52 am

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:Why won't they actually test the shotgun

Actually, it's my understanding (and I could be wrong, not being a professional ballistician) that you CANNOT do forensic tests on shotguns, given that they do not have a single projectile (like a handgun or rifle) that bears the markings of having been forced down the barrel at high pressure.

Bay Bridge Sue wrote: - shit, test ALL the evidence they still have - to prove if Williams did the murder or not? There's a lot of evidentiary testing they can do to actually prove this case one way or the other. But they won't do it, and have refused to over and over.

I confess, I haven't followed the case that closely. But capital crimes, especially high-profile ones like this, tend to be tested up the wazoo. I personally don't have a firm opinion on capital punishment; on one hand, what if they're wrong? On the other, the recidivism rate is very low. Such people have ordered/orchastrated additional murders from behind prison walls. An Israeli judge was killed under just such circumstances (Israel is one of those countries more "civilized" than us

which does not have the death penalty).

But on the third hand, even if he didn't pull the trigger on THAT particular murder, he enabled many others. Founder of the Crips, remember? Under his influence, many other people (including undeniable innocents caught in the cross-fire of one of their many little temper-tantrums with other gangs) HAVE died. The leader of a criminal syndicate (or a military unit, for that matter) is held responsible for any murders committed under his command, even if he, himself, was miles away from the actual doing. Once you start carelessly slinging bullets around crowded neighborhoods, someone is going to get killed. It ain't like in Hollyweird, where they fire off machine guns and no one is even hit, much less killed. Tookie lived the high life, spread boku misery and fear around his 'hood so no one would "dis" him, and now the bill has come due.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:01 am

It ain't like in Hollyweird, where they fire off machine guns and no one is even hit, much less killed.

Actually this reminded me of something I've heard from different LE sources over the years and that is in gunfights many times people do miss their targets.

Magikal · Post by **Magikal** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:24 am

Kinetic IV wrote:
It ain't like in Hollyweird, where they fire off machine guns and no one is even hit, much less killed.
Actually this reminded me of something I've heard from different LE sources over the years and that is in gunfights many times people do miss their targets.

Precisely my point. Even cops, who are trained with their guns, miss. And they are held accountable for every round they fire, whether it hits its intended target or not. If some little kid catches a bullet because these stupid gang subhumans are shooting up the neighborhood, they are responsible for that death. If you drive a car through a crowd, you are responsible for anyone you hit, even if it wasn't the one you were after. If you fire a gun into a crowd (or a crowded neighborhood), you are again responsible for anyone you hit.

MoisturePup · Post by **MoisturePup** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:43 am

DVD Burner wrote:I think this has nothing to do with Burningman......or does it?

Ok....so this took up a couple A kilobytes......

What do you think?

Tookie is just another charismatic leader. He created one of the biggest gangs in America. And now he's turned his charisma to getting people to rally behind him to save himself.

Has he bothered to help the police bring down what he started? No. (He refuses to inform on the crips.)

Is he truelly sorry for what he did? Does he regret the hundreds of lives lost due to his decision to start a gang those many years ago? His actions speak volumes.

It's rare that I feel the death penalty is justified. But in this case, I think it is.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:10 pm

VI. How Kings should Practice the Duties of Mercy.

Whenever a supplication is made to us on behalf of those who have been implicated in any crime against our majesty, we willingly give attention to such appeals, and exercise the prerogative of mercy when it is consistent with our power. We must, however, refuse to interfere when a crime of this kind has been committed against the nation and our country. Yet, if a prince should desire to be merciful to persons of such wicked character, he shall have the right to do so, with the approval of the ecclesiastics and the principal officers of the court.

From The Visigothic Code: (Forum judicum)

E. ViLe Dustburger · Post by **E. ViLe Dustburger** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:27 pm

Put his head on a pike
and give it a hike...

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:56 pm

joel the ornery wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:
helitack wrote:No. Not murder. It's a State sanctioned execution. For crimes committed. For which the penalty is death. And you don't have to worry about him being a repeat offender.
sorry Heli...it's murder, but in the macarbe way of the state death machine it is made to appear to be 'civilized'......
sorry CBA, i just think of the funds required to keep the convicted murderer alive... and then i think about how that money could be used for some kid on the street... that has a chance to be better than tookie or any other convicted murderer.

tookie's 15 minutes of fame are over.

stats show that it is less expensive to house this type of case than try the death penalty route..I think http://www.deathpenalty.org/ has stats on that

Mike Farrells's group.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:06 pm

Until the penalty is changed, this argument is pissing in the wind. some of us feel he should be executed, some don't. For now the penalty is death. Start the referendum to change what you don't like. The majority voted for this penalty, majority rules, most of the time.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:58 pm

Will deciding Tookie's fate give Arnold a heart attack?

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:50 pm

helitack wrote:Until the penalty is changed, this argument is pissing in the wind. some of us feel he should be executed, some don't. For now the penalty is death. Start the referendum to change what you don't like. The majority voted for this penalty, majority rules, most of the time.

right. I am workin on it. will be Monday night too, in the rainy cold of San Q....

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:54 pm

So will I, Monday night. When I take off the duty gear.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:57 pm

cool..PM me and I'll give you my top secret, super duper clandestine cell phone number.....

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:33 pm

helitack wrote:Until the penalty is changed, this argument is pissing in the wind. some of us feel he should be executed, some don't. For now the penalty is death. Start the referendum to change what you don't like. The majority voted for this penalty, majority rules, most of the time.

Exactly the point I was making, Heli... Thanks!

The punishment for the crimes coommitted is death - in this case, by lethal injection. It's not a wah wah thing, it's what the people have decided the crime's punishment should be.

Haven't heard yet if I'll be on duty that night or not (the Richmond Bridge, next to San Quentin, is one of ours). Personally, I think it's gonna be a zoo down there, and if I can be about 15 miles from there, I will. If not... maybe I'll see ya there. But, honestly, I hope not.

Inside info - you didn't hear it here... if you DO go, do NOT be coerced inito walking onto the parking lot at the end of the road... it's state property. There is a rumor they may try to get the "protesters" to go down to said lot, wherein being on state property, they will be subject to search (no warrant necessary, remember it's a prison), and subject to seizure of property and arrest.

You didn't hear it here first, tho. >>wink<<

bb

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:15 pm

pm me yoo sue if you want to meet up. I may try to do a live stream from there...got a lead on a broadband connection...if ya wanta help...that would be nice...you too Heli

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:28 am

so whats the latest odd's in vegas? anyone know an RSS feed to a site that posts them?

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:37 am

spectabillis wrote:so whats the latest odd's in vegas? anyone know an RSS feed to a site that posts them?

I dont know about an rss feed but Can't sit still posted this in the politics thread about a week ago. You may find this interesting:

http://www.strategypage.com/prediction_ ... efault.asp

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:48 am

according to today's SF Chron...73% of Californians favor a death penalty moratorium....73%........

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:50 am

cowboyangel wrote:according to today's SF Chron...73% of Californians favor a death penalty moratorium....73%........

yet of that 73%, how many vote?

apparently not enough to stop the death penalty.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:53 pm

The Death Penalty is just a barbaric emotional response that has no place within a highly advance civilization!!!!

Which is why it is supported by the majority of Americans!

AIIZ

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:11 pm

Unfortunately, even with 95% of Americans supporting a moratorium on the death penalty, it's still law until someone gets a law introduced to repeal the thing and there're enough votes to kill it.

Then conversations like this would be a dead issue.

bb

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:21 pm

Note: the poll that DVD cited was a 73% of people--including death penalty supporters (and we can bet some of them vote) who are feeling uncomfortable with how it is carried out with some of the revalations over the past few years of DNA exonoration, sleeping defence lawyers, low iq defendants, racial death penalty statistics and other incidents that make most thoughtful persons wonder if it is properly being carried out. So conscievibly (sp) after revision of practices it would be resumed in a (relatively) short period of time.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:55 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Note: the poll that DVD cited was a 73% of people

.......uuuummmmm.........

That poll was delivered to this thread by Cowboy, But I'll take the compliment.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:59 pm

it is an honor to hang out with some of the beautiful people that show up at the death penalty protest on execution night...if that happens, I will cover some of it on video.....I'd like to live stream it at my site too, but details still have to be worked out....I'll post links to that cam on my web site. San Quentin is about 7 miles from where I live...it's my neighborhood, and I don't like what they're doin in my neighborhood when "they" kill the condemned...

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:41 pm

cowboyangel wrote: I will cover some of it on video.....I'd like to live stream it at my site too, but details still have to be worked out.......

Dum da da daaaa! (my best virtual trumpet imitation.)

This sounds like a job for "Canopy"

(well 2 anyway. 1 cluster is 4.5 miles then you need a repeater.)

And I dont mean an awning. (sp)

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:41 pm

are you saying that a canopy is deployed somewhere near San Quentin Village? let me know

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:47 pm

Since Governor Gutless didn't want to risk offending his religious right wing fundie political base, Tookie is doomed. What good is clemency if an official is afraid to use it anyway? It's now a freakin joke.

The only remaining questions are will LA riot and who will strike first....the disenfranchised youth or the thugs with badges and billyclubs?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:56 pm

Jon Carroll's wisdom on the subject (pre denial of clemancy.)

will Arnold let Tookie live?

Re: will Arnold let Tookie live?

What Would A Real Barbarian Do?