will Arnold let Tookie live?

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:24 pm

Buh Bye Stanley, can't dance 'less yer willin to pay the fiddler.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:28 pm

Arnold has proven once again that he is about mediocrity and spinelessness.
I will be there tonight to stand with my tribe....the sane, the peaceful, the holy.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:32 pm

It IS more expensive to execute someone than keep them there for life.
Why?

24 fucking years of appeals paid for by the goddam state. This is absurd. After being found guilty by a jury of his peers, it should have went up the chain of the legal system until it was denied somewhere below the Supreme Court. We should implement a time-limited cap on appeals similiar to the statuate of limitations. It would then be far cheaper to remove the truely dangerous from our society. But then those against the death penalty couldn't have statistics to point to.

He has a chance to turn over his buddies in the Crips. He can help bring down some of the worst fucking scum on the planet. Ones that not only kill, rape, traffic drugs, and steal- they have made a tradition of getting others to do it also. He won't. If you let him back into general population, he'll be right back to giving orders for killing hundreds of rivals gang members and innocents in the crossfire. Hell yes he still has power over those outside, he's as grandfathered in as you get.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:29 pm

“I can’t understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death.”

“Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:33 pm

IF Arnold was a real leader, he would have enacted the moratorium on the death penalty until they got the bugs worked out. Then if Tookie had to die, it would have at least been with no doubt he did it.

Then again... if tookie's lawyers (and Tookie himself) wanted to live, he should have been fighting this thing a hell of a lot harder a hell of a lot earlier.

I'm f***ing not happy. OK, he was found guilty (I still don't like the BS evidence against him - seems like a set-up - no matter how bad he was or whether he did it or not...), and he's gotta pay the price. If he did did it, then he should accept what's going down.

But what if they find out he *didn't* do it after he's kacked? Too late t bring him back then...

Then again... he *did* found an org. that caused grevious injury and death on a lot of people. As CIC and founder he's the one who takes the fall - just lijke any other leader of an industry. I wonder if that's what the deciding factor on anti-clemency was? I kinda suspect it had a lot to do with it.

And altho he did a lot of good (and will be remembered fondly by a lot of people) he also did a lot of not good. People forget the "old" Tookie.

Frigging confusing.

Yeah. I'm sorry the guy (present) is being executed, but with him goes the guy (past) who 20 years ago would not have been such a great loss. What if the Bloods wasted him when he was still the capo? Where would those good works be?

Then again... 20 years ago... hmmm... yeah. 21 years ago, I was not necessarily a nice person, either, come to think about it. People *do* change in 20 years and can do some good, maybe even redeem themselves. After some of the shit a lot of us did, and we now do good, I wonder about Tookie and how can you kill him 20 years after rehabilitating...

Then again, were he not in prison and awaiting tonights (apparent) fate, would he have turned such a new leaf? Who knows...

Still... he was someone's little kid at one time, the apple of someone's eye... and to see that stricken, first by fate, then by being irate, and finally by the state, is kinda sad. Maybe required by law, maybe even necessary... but still sad.

My 2 cents. May those who Tookie (allegedly) killed, and Tookie, and all those affected by this whole farking tradgedy, rest in peace.

And to Arnie... I suspect you won't sleep well tonight. I know, were I in your shoes, and if I did what you did, I wouldn't. I was hoping you had the cajones to be a leader. Not to clemency Williams, but to fix a huge problem CA has with it's Capital Punishment Law. It was your chance, your spotlight.

You coulda done it. Why the hell didn't you?

bb

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:23 am

Kinetic IV wrote:Again I feel this man is worth more to the community alive than dead, nobody can change the past but they can certainly change the future. This man has the potential to do just that. He truly has the potential to exponentially save more lives than he took. I'm not condoning what he did...would I advocate putting him back on the street? Absolutely not. But behind bars and doing the outreach work that he can do....I'm all for it.

I used to see it your way. Then I learned that he's never apologized for his crimes. Then I read a long list of the bad things he's done while in prison. Regarding "he'd be worth more alive": no. The example would then be, "If you kill four people, you might get off by writing childrens' books." (Or otherwise "atoning" for your crimes.) Imagine you are the last victim in that convenience store. You've just seen three others killed in front of you and you're next. Someone says, "Should the guy who is just about to kill you be allowed to live if he 'atones for his crimes'?"

Perspective is an amazing thing.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:30 am

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:Still... he was someone's little kid at one time, the apple of someone's eye... and to see that stricken, first by fate, then by being irate, and finally by the state, is kinda sad. Maybe required by law, maybe even necessary... but still sad.

Fate? If he was fated to kill people then he's fated to die. I don't believe in fate, myself. I am a strong believer that people make their own decisions and that excuses for behavior are bullshit. If they are making the wrong decisions and other people die because if it, no matter the cause, they need to serve as an example to others as to why you need to make the right decisions.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:11 am

just got back from San Quentin. It's 2:00am. I'm beat, but happy to be in the company of so many good people. The crowd was huge. Many heartfelt, powerful speeches. Will post video on my website in the next day or two. Bonus. When I was driving back after a really long walk to get to the truck, I saw two guys who were waving me for a ride. One jumped in the back of the truck. One sat next to me and stuck out hand said thanks for stopping and said Hi, I'm Sean. It was Sean Penn. I thanked him for the good use he's putting his celebrity to and asked him where he thought all the death penalty thing was going. He said it was definitely getting more visibility and more discussion out there. He also said the opposition was pretty tough. The other guy was Norman Solomon. Good people. Good company.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:12 am

oh yeah...AB1121.....check it out

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:11 am

when you remember "tookie"

take a few extra moments and remember the victims of his crimes.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:04 am

joel the ornery wrote:when you remember "tookie"

take a few extra moments and remember the victims of his crimes.

Done. But I'll also remember that "clemency" is dead, killed off by the need to cater to the lowest common denominator religious fundamentalist political base. I'll also think of the young men of color who could have benefitted from his message, especially the next time our local media screams about gun violence. And I'll also think about how Governor Gutless is going to milk this for political gain. He wasn't tough on crime, he's proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is truly an actor...if he's not being fed a script he's not capable of thinking for himself and using the power of his office to effect change. Again...Governor Gutless. But then again what can you expect from someone who played The Terminator....kill, kill, kill. It's all he knows. Thankfully the US Constitution forbids fuckers like him from running for President....I'm glad California is the only state he can fuck up.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:10 am

god answers all prayers

sometimes the answer is No

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:58 am

Kinetic IV wrote: I'll also think of the young men of color who could have benefitted from his message, especially the next time our local media screams about gun violence.

His message was made clear.
Most people already knew about the message.
Let`s hope the one`s that hadn`t yet heard - benefitted from it:

"Don`t commit the act of murder, instead of solving your problems,
it will be only the beginning of your problems..."

How do you reason with the un-reasonable?
Use un-reasonable means.

If there were no murders,
there wouldn`t be a death penalty.

Let`s abolish the crime of murder.
How`s that for a noble cause....?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:32 am

His message was made clear.
Most people already knew about the message.

His message was still propagating around the world and into the deep parts of the communities where the people that need it the most typically ignore mainstream media. Don't assume that most people already knew.....

The whole death penalty debate has really left me in a quandary. How can I advocate it for Keith Nelson who is facing a federal death sentence for the interstate rape and murder of a child, yet I am for clemency for Tookie? The factors that shaped my opinion is the fact that Tookie has books out there that try to counter the bad things he did. I happen to believe in the power of the written word to influence people long after the authors are gone....as do many others. I also believe that while he didn't come right out and say I'm sorry, his subconsciousness was speaking through his actions. To say flat out he was sorry might have meant a loss of street cred and a diminished message. He was trying to walk a fine line as I see it....back to the Nelson case yeah, murder is murder. Bullet or strangulation the result is the same. But to torture a victim first and to rape them vs. Tookie's alleged quick execution style killing...it's a matter of degrees but the Nelson case warrants an even harsher response than what Tookie did.

It's hard to rationalize all of this and I expect to catch some flak over what I've wrote. But that flak is invaluable....so feel free to fire away. Everyone learns from different people's viewpoints and my eyes and ears are open.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:20 am

A lot of it boils down to cultural perspective. Just what is the value of human life? We often put a high arbitrary value on the life of others so that they will put a high arbitrary value on our life.
In the east, the value is far lower. So, who's correct?
The bloods and crips, like the hells angels have been exported to other countries. Regardless of his recent efforts, the body count continues to climb from the seeds that Tookie sowed. Gangs are a warped hand-me-down from the ancient times of hunting clans. Gangs and their attendant drug distribution have no place in an orderly society. If one organizes a gang, one makes an investment in blood.

The Old Testament calls for blood, the New Testament calls for forgiveness. Make your personal choice. I believe that cold-blooded execution puts one into the "class" of people who fall under the strictures of the old testament.
If one is barbarous enough to execute people for gain,,,then one should gain a barbarous penalty.
Dan

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:45 am

When does one know whether or not he follows a false religion:

Just look for revisions and rewrites!

AIIZ

Magikal · Post by **Magikal** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:19 am

Kinetic IV wrote:I also believe that while he didn't come right out and say I'm sorry, his subconsciousness was speaking through his actions. To say flat out he was sorry might have meant a loss of street cred and a diminished message. He was trying to walk a fine line as I see it.

"Street cred"? Sorry, there are certain, universal HUMAN standards that apply, whether you are in a gang or not. Tough upbringing? Sure. Lousy neighborhood? Undoubtedly. Should we look the other way? Not a chance. At some point, you made your choices, you pay the price, whether you have a "prison redemption" and write a couple of children's books or not.

So now he's dead. Am I happy? Not really. Just another wasted life. As I was driving home (I work 2nd shift), I heard the news on the radio he was gone. I felt no joy in that. But it was a messy, unpleasant job that had to be done. I have taken down animals before, taken life. It's not a nice thing.

Is the death penalty perfect, the court system flawless? Hardly. But this seems, after centuries of evolving human society, the best we can do. If just one young man out there, contemplating if he will "cap" some one, thinks about being strapped to a gurney like his hero Tookie & getting chemicals pumped into his veins , it will have been worth it. Rest in peace, Tookie. Whatever the case, it's between you and your maker now.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:43 am

This isn't about Tookie. Tookie's dead and hard cases make bad law.

But how many of us have never made a mistake? How many of us can point to a human institution and say "that is infallible"?

Posit an error rate of 1%. For every one thousand people executed, that means 10 of them were innocent. Is that a price you are willing to pay? Killing a scumbag can make us feel good. Violence attracts us, whether to protest or to get a thrill. But violence will continue to beget violence and everynow and then some poor innocent sucker is going to be put to death by the State (All Hail!).

Advocate for the repeal of the death penalty in you state, it's the only humane approach.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:08 pm

actually, this thread was about tookie.

yet i agree, the only way to stop executions is to change the law.

good luck.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:16 pm

blyslv wrote: Posit an error rate of 1%. For every one thousand people executed, that means 10 of them were innocent. Is that a price you are willing to pay?

Consider that for every one thousand people executed, there were an average of say three thousand victims. 10 innocent victims to offset 3000. Generally killed in a far more humane way than the murderers' victims, and with the advantage of some form of defense for themselves.

I'm OK with that. And I believe that complacency to violence begets violence far faster.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:42 pm

Of those 10, how many were first time offenders? I would bet close to "0."

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:50 pm

Joel, I meant my post, not the entire thread. Of course now that he's dead, it's moot, so lets talk about the death penalty in general, instead of how it's applied.

Hey Rob, I guess I know where you come down on the "collateral damage" issue. And when they arrest you based on a witness' description of a "tall hairy man with a jewish nose" for muder one (as happened to a freind of mine in college. They held him 3 days, but maybe if it was Texas they woulda killed him) you can take solace in the fact that at least some guilty people were also aressted.

Cabana, does the prospect of "guilt by association" worry you? It should.

"Oh I know he didn't have anything illeagal on him now, but he's a burner so he must have been guilty of something." That's where you're logic take us. Hello Police State, I've missed you cold embrace.

The Consitution protects the innocent as well as the accussed (and it certain cases the guiltyas well).

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:43 pm

Before I run with this, the answer to the question is...

apparently not.

OK then...

Cops hear gunshots, arrive to find well dressed couple lying dead in the street. On asking te neighbors, they come to a description of someone who looks like you. Of course it wasn't you, you were home in front of the tube watching the news.

But you live 5 minutes from the crime scene. You have a minor record for some stupid stuff - dsorderly conduct, drunk in public, and that fight your ex and you got into where the cops showed up... owever, the charges were dropped...

Your name comes up as a local. They go to visit, and sure enough you're the right height, weight, sex, hair & color, etc. Where were you? Home watchig TV. Any witnesses or coberation? Not really... you were home alone. So they tell you "don't leave town".

24 hours later they drag you in for a line up Someone says they saw the whole thing come down, this guy that looks like you blasts the people, laughs, and leaves. SO they drag this guy in (who happens to be beholden to the real killer for a dope deal, and who has seen you around te 'hood) to pick out the bad guy in a line up. Here's the guy who did it, a pro criminal scumball, a cop, the guy from the deli, and you all standing there. Witness points at you, says "he did it, it was him..."

Trial comes and goes. Because there was not much evidence but circumstantal, and that witness... and based on the prosecuters good attorneying, they hang you. Your kids and ex show up, try to say you're a good person, etc... but then the victim's family get up there and talk about how the victm was a good and decent perso, and how they can't wait to see you rot in hell, you piece of shit murdering sonofabitch... and the judge slams down his gavel, and sends you to wait your turn in the cold green cell.

You fight it. "I'm innocent, I was watching TV"... Yeah right. No evidence to say you didn't do it. You're a convicted killer. Who the f**k's gonna believe you. Not the cops who put you away.. Not the Judge who sent your miserable carcass bye bye. Not the Governor who, in an election warm-up, can't dare to piss off the people *or* his political base, no matter how innocent he may think you are.

Warden over the PA. "You have any last words?" Tears streaming down your face, you scream "Why doesn't anyone believe me, I didn't do it??!!??"... The victims family say "Man, I'm glad they're frying that scumball tonite. Can't wait to see him D-E-A-D dead." And as the reporters take their notes, and the silence grows in your sealed cell, the warden nods, and the first plunger is depressed...

2 months later, they find, in the real killer's house, the gun that was used in the crime. New evidence technques link him implicitly to the crime. NO QUESTION he did it. Where does that put you? Oh yeah... they killed you for that one 2 months ago.

****

Ya know what? IF... that's the penalty, and there's solid and hard evidence that the convicted person did it, fry the bastage. But if the "damnable proof", not circumstantial, not based on someone who's a known criminal associate testifying to save their own ass, isn't there... can the state reverse the penalty if they find out later they were wrong?

You tell me. It's not if the penalty is right or wrong... it's what if the conviction is wrong? Then what do you do? Bring the dead guy back to life? Don't think the state has *quite* that much power...

I'm not saying Williams didn't do it. I'm not saying he wasn't responsible for others doing murder. He may well could have been. But with all the questionable crap surrounding his conviction, I'm not convinced he should have been put to death. Not until we *knew*.

Guess I'll go now. Helluva day...
bb

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:31 pm

AB1121 is on our legislative agenda for January. The Tuetonic nutcase of a governor we have could have waited till then. AB1121 calls for a temporary moratorium. My state assembly rep, Joe Nation, supports it. To those calling on this thread for legislative action, AB1121 is a first step. I also congratulated Sean for appearing in Dead Man Walking and mentioned that Hollywood does a better job at telling real stories than the corporate news. He agreed. We talked a little about Clooney's Serriano as a case in point. There was so much press there it just blew me away, perhaps, 30-40 sat dishes. Funny thing about the plastic reporters...they almost all had their backs to the stage and were doing their little "news" pieces while some pretty awesome speeches were happening on the stage they chose to use as backdrop. A young hip hop performer encouraged them to listen to what was being said on the stage, instaed of looking for violence or scuffles.... glad I brought my smudge stick...many folks thanked me for that.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:10 pm

Let's try this, when someone you care for more than anything else is shot in the back with a shotgun for no reason other than a $120, what would you have the State do?

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:31 am

Well that depends. Was the guy holding the shotgun male or female? White, black or brown? Can he hire an expensive attorney? What does the governor's constituency think should be done? Patheticly, these have proven to be compelling factors in death penalty cases.

People lawfully accused of murder should be tried and, if found guilty, punished. It's one of the primary functions of the state and perhaps the only principle everyone agrees on. But a punishment of death requires rock solid proof that not only did the accused commit the crime, the crime must have been premeditated.

In my religion, rock solid proof means that not only must both the illegal planning and the murder have been witnessed by at least two people, the witnesses must have intervened in the effort to dissuade the perpetrator and been rebuffed. If all of this is proven in a trial, the death penalty can be levied.

It's never simple. Take famous "eye for an eye" bit from Exodus. If read carefully in context, it means someone who damages an eye must pay the value of that eye, regardless of the societal status of the victim or the perpetrator. It was a radical philosophy in its day because it meant that rich folks shouldn't get off easier than poor folks. Reduction of the teaching to "the state must murder murderers" is an ignorant attempt at shutting up an issue that must be discussed thoroughly on a case-by-case basis by everyone: criminals, victims, witnesses and non witnesses alike.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:50 am

Bullshit. If it was your wife/daughter/son/husband most if not all would want to throw the switch or push the plunger. He was found guilty which, means in a criminal trial, beyond a reasonable doubt. And he paid for what he did.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:13 am

IMHO... i hope mothers and fathers are explaining to their kids... "he was found guilty of four counts of murder... murder is bad, four murders is four times as bad.... bad murderers get executed in some states, DON'T BE A MURDERER"

anything less isn't parenting, IMHO.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:43 am

helitack wrote:Bullshit. If it was your wife/daughter/son/husband most if not all would want to throw the switch or push the plunger. He was found guilty which, means in a criminal trial, beyond a reasonable doubt. And he paid for what he did.

I sat here thinking about this and I put my Mother or Tiff into these roles and you're right....at first. Once I cooled down and rational thought prevailed....I would tend to disagree with you. I happen to like the idea of life imprisonment, make the sucker sit there and rot away and die an almost forgotten man. Death is too easy of an escape. He should have his medical care restricted to the basics and made to live the most basic existance possible. Preferably a Supermax type imprisonment with one hour of sunlight per day and the bare minimum human contact possible. That...would be the start of a suitable punishment. In the case I am close to with Keith Nelson who brutally murdered Pamela Butler...I am split on the death penalty or advocating the Supermax approach I described. In either scenario as long as he never walks out of that place and has to be carried out...be it by Uncle Sam's hand or by natural causes....that's all I care about. Keep the predator off the street, period.

murder is bad, four murders is four times as bad

Murder is murder. It doesn't matter if it's Keith Nelson, Timothy McVeigh, or Osama it's all equally weighted. There is no such thing as 4 times as bad, it's all bad. There is no point to dogpiling on with sentences....give the person a "hard" life sentence as in no chance in parole and be done with it. As for telling someone what to teach their kids, everyone has opinions but at the same time let the parents be parents and decide what is best. Just because they don't teach what you believe doesn't make them any less of a parent.

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:48 am

helitack wrote:Bullshit. If it was your wife/daughter/son/husband most if not all would want to throw the switch or push the plunger. He was found guilty which, means in a criminal trial, beyond a reasonable doubt.

The death penalty only applies in first degree murder cases, aka cases where murder was premeditated. You might not agree with the methodology I described, but proof of intent is required by our system. And proving intent is nearly impossible, therefore getting beyond reasonable doubt is nearly impossible.

will Arnold let Tookie live?

Yup.