will Arnold let Tookie live?

[Lassen Forge]

Let's try this, when someone you care for more than anything else is shot in the back with a shotgun for no reason other than $120, what would you have the State do?

Lessee... assuming he (or she or it or whatever) was able to escape my wrath and got caught by the law instead I'd push the plunger. And I'd push it ever so slowly. Probably be so upset, I might even screw up the order in which they got pushed.

Then again... if the state was too slow, someone might find a bunch of bones somewhere northeast of my granddad's mine, the arms and legs tied to dessicated and shrivelled leather thongs staked to a desert floor near a fire ant nest. They prolly wouldn't find the traces of honey, tho...

See... this may shock some people, but my qualm is *not* with capital punishment where it's deserved. It's about applying it without knowing for sure the person being kacked was the guilty party. Period.

bb

[blyslv]

Let's try this, when someone you care for more than anything else is shot in the back with a shotgun for no reason other than a $120, what would you have the State do?

Lock him up in prison for the rest of his life, especially if he's got a purty mouth.

[Lassen Forge]

Lock him up in prison for the rest of his life, especially if he's got a purty mouth.

What if "he" was a she? Anyone ever think of that angle? The first degree murderers out there aren't just men...

Oh, that's right.. We're all so innocent and nice and gentle, we would *never* perpetrate a crime... Especially murder. Ask Dorothea Puente of Sacramento. Grandmothery. In fact, one of her hobbies at her boarding house was Gardening... until they "dug up" something on her... >wince<

bb

[Kinetic IV]

I wonder if Blyslv was referring to the old Soap on a Rope and Bubba cell stories that circulate from time to time when he wrote that...

[Simply Joel]

Let's try this, when someone you care for more than anything else is shot in the back with a shotgun for no reason other than a $120, what would you have the State do?

Lock him up in prison for the rest of his life, especially if he's got a purty mouth.

unfortunately, allowing someone life in prison doesn't dissuade said person from continuing their criminal activity from within the prison.

in the case of Tookie, the Crips no longer have said "leader"

[Kinetic IV]

Supermax sure cuts down that leadership potential without putting the State into the business of murder.

For anyone not familiar with Supermax run a Google search on how the feds are holding Ted Kacynzski (sp). It's harsh.

[Magikal]

Preferably a Supermax type imprisonment with one hour of sunlight per day and the bare minimum human contact possible. That...would be the start of a suitable punishment.
<snip>
In either scenario as long as he never walks out of that place and has to be carried out...be it by Uncle Sam's hand or by natural causes....that's all I care about. Keep the predator off the street, period.

Well, for the first, sounds good to me. And the whole idea some one else put up, of having them wither away and die almost forgotten, that sounds good, too. However, there are two problems with that.

First, what if they escape? Apparently, they discovered a plot Tookie had to do just that (before hand, obviously), and one in which guards would be killed (P.S. Tookie apparently devoted his "children's books" to cop killers ).

Two, what about when people such as this continue their evil from inside? As I stated before, there is a guy in Israel (where they only have life, no death sentance) who ordered the murder of a judge. Sure kept him harmless, eh?

[Kinetic IV]

In a Supermax at least at the Federal level the prisoner is restricted to one hour outside of their cell per day. That's it. Everything else, all contact is strictly controlled...ie no visitors, screened mail, strict movement protocols. (We're not talking about giving prisoners opportunities like the infamous Atlanta courthouse shooting and escape for meth debacle in Atlanta earlier this year. )

Or in other words it's kinda hard to run a syndicate under those conditions. Gotti did it at Marion but that wasn't true Supermax conditions like what I was referring to.

And we all know that no jail is "escape proof' (when a pre-teen can swim from Alcatraz to SF it illustrates the point a bit) but that's a risk I'd be willing to take. Each escape, each engineering failure teaches us how to make things better. And with a high profile prisoner escape the resources devoted to recapture would be formidible and steps would be taken to protect the families....yeah there are loopholes but nothing's perfect. I'll still take the supermax approach.

And as for the Israeli approach....was it a true hardcore Supermax or even a Super-supermax? No.

[blyslv]

What if "he" was a she? Anyone ever think of that angle? The first degree murderers out there aren't just men...

I was asked a similar question by a professor.

"How do you know the judge is a he?"

I told her I was using "he" in the gender neurtal sense. I did withhold my comments on what I imagined judges wear under those long black flowing robes, however. And in general terms, while there are womem on death row and there are convicted female murders, the percentage is much less then 50%.

There is along list of articles bemoaning the absence of a gender nuetral pronoun in English. But that's not for this thread.

[blyslv]

First, what if they escape?

Laws based on anomilies are pretty poor and likely to be observed mainly in the breach.

[Simply Joel]

Supermax sure cuts down that leadership potential without putting the State into the business of murder.

For anyone not familiar with Supermax run a Google search on how the feds are holding Ted Kacynzski (sp). It's harsh.

so is a shotgun blast to the back....

Ted should be dead too.

[E. ViLe Dustburger]

There was a cartoon bird that I remember fondly.
I even blurt out his infamous song occasionally
when I`m in a whackey mood.

The bird`s song was: " AH! AH! EE! EE! TookieTookie! "



That has been forever changed for me now....

[HughMungus]

when you remember "tookie"

take a few extra moments and remember the victims of his crimes.

Done. But I'll also remember that "clemency" is dead, killed off by the need to cater to the lowest common denominator religious fundamentalist political base.

How so? I'm somewhat liberal, a burner, and a humanist and I believe the death penalty serves a purpose and that that clemency is still available...just not in this case. Clemency wouldn't have been appropriate in this case (really, learn more about Tookie and his behavior) and would have sent the wrong message.

It would really benefit the anti-death people to pick their battles more wisely. Tookie was the wrong battle and makes you look like you have a blind all-or-nothing approach to rival that of the religious fundamentalists.

[Kinetic IV]

It would really benefit the anti-death people to pick their battles more wisely. Tookie was the wrong battle and makes you look like you have a blind all-or-nothing approach to rival that of the religious fundamentalists.

OUCH. Now that was a major slap...religious fundies? OUCH!! Still I feel that I made the right call in asking Governor Gutless for clemency. The man made the effort to rehabilitate himself which is more than most people in similar circumstances can claim. If his case couldn't reach the bar then I have doubts any more will.

[HughMungus]

In a Supermax at least at the Federal level the prisoner is restricted to one hour outside of their cell per day. That's it. Everything else, all contact is strictly controlled...ie no visitors, screened mail, strict movement protocols. (We're not talking about giving prisoners opportunities like the infamous Atlanta courthouse shooting and escape for meth debacle in Atlanta earlier this year. )

Or in other words it's kinda hard to run a syndicate under those conditions. Gotti did it at Marion but that wasn't true Supermax conditions like what I was referring to.

And we all know that no jail is "escape proof' (when a pre-teen can swim from Alcatraz to SF it illustrates the point a bit) but that's a risk I'd be willing to take. Each escape, each engineering failure teaches us how to make things better. And with a high profile prisoner escape the resources devoted to recapture would be formidible and steps would be taken to protect the families....yeah there are loopholes but nothing's perfect. I'll still take the supermax approach.

And as for the Israeli approach....was it a true hardcore Supermax or even a Super-supermax? No.

Sorry, but, if someone murders someone I know violently and sadistically I don't want to live the rest of my life thinking about how they might get out of prison someday, don't want to hear about how they're enjoying this or that activity in prison, don't want to hear about how they've "reformed" and are nominated for a Nobel, or think about how they might be able to get a message out and send someone after me for testifying, etc. etc. etc. One thing that the death penalty provides is closure.

[HughMungus]

Let's try this, when someone you care for more than anything else is shot in the back with a shotgun for no reason other than a $120, what would you have the State do?

Lock him up in prison for the rest of his life, especially if he's got a purty mouth.

Let me get this straight...

You're AGAINST the death penalty but FOR prison rape?

[Kinetic IV]

Not to be rude but you seriously need to read up on the concept of Supermaxes. If you're thinking it's Club Fed you are 180 degrees from the truth.

And does the death penalty really provide closure? If it was so effective a deterrent than why are the crime rates skyrocketing again? I'm looking back at the Keith Nelson federal case...his death won't really bring closure to the family involved. It offers a temporary emotional spike but that's about it.

[HughMungus]

It would really benefit the anti-death people to pick their battles more wisely. Tookie was the wrong battle and makes you look like you have a blind all-or-nothing approach to rival that of the religious fundamentalists.

OUCH. Now that was a major slap...religious fundies? OUCH!! Still I feel that I made the right call in asking Governor Gutless for clemency. The man made the effort to rehabilitate himself which is more than most people in similar circumstances can claim. If his case couldn't reach the bar then I have doubts any more will.

Of course he made an effort. He was on death row!!! What would you do?

Have you ever read about some of the OTHER things he's done while in prison?

I'm pretty sure that the death penalty for most people is similar to their stand on abortion. We don't want people to have to get abortions but we want them to be able to get them if they need it.

[Kinetic IV]

How many people have books out there, or had the ability to reach as many people as he did? Not many.

You do raise some valid points though.

[HughMungus]

Not to be rude but you seriously need to read up on the concept of Supermaxes. If you're thinking it's Club Fed you are 180 degrees from the truth.

And does the death penalty really provide closure? If it was so effective a deterrent than why are the crime rates skyrocketing again? I'm looking back at the Keith Nelson federal case...his death won't really bring closure to the family involved. It offers a temporary emotional spike but that's about it.

I know what you're saying. What I'm saying is: I do not want to spend ONE SPLIT SECOND thinking about this person who is still alive who might someday affect my life negatively (even if only in my thoughts). If they're DEAD, I get to spend a lot less time thinking about them and living my own life.

I didn't say anything about crime rates. I said it provides closure for victims and their friends and families.

[HughMungus]

How many people have books out there, or had the ability to reach as many people as he did? Not many.

Agreed. It's just too easy to repent when you're on your way to hell.

You do raise some valid points though.

Yeah. This will never be settled.

[Kinetic IV]

Considering the pure hell they put their victims through it's only appropriate IMHO that I give up a sense of closure to ensure they get the proper punishment they're due. Death is the easy way out. Suffering 40, 60, 80 years is much worse....maybe I'm being sadistic but if it was my family member as the victim I'd want justice to be slow, methodical, and ruthless.

[Rob the Wop]

Hey Rob, I guess I know where you come down on the "collateral damage" issue. And when they arrest you based on a witness' description of a "tall hairy man with a jewish nose" for muder one (as happened to a freind of mine in college. They held him 3 days, but maybe if it was Texas they woulda killed him) you can take solace in the fact that at least some guilty people were also aressted.

No, but I would take a hell of a lot more solace in the fact that the death penalty can prevent more murders.

Since you like using loose analogies that are on a personal level:

You are a juror that finds a multiple murderer guilty. He doesn't get put to death. He has his gang buddies kill you, your family, the other jurors, and their famalies in retaliation for a guilty verdict. Would you take solace in giving this guy HBO, a warm cell, and access to good drugs for the rest of his life while he laughs at the fact that you're all dead?

Prison doesn't stop gang leaders, organized crime lords, or the like from jack shit. Money that could be used for better purposes is tied up taking care of these folks. The money to house a dangerous murderer could feed starving famalies here.

[Kinetic IV]

Tookie's book proceeds, providing CA has a Son of Sam law could have been used to pay for his incarceration....while continuing to get the message out.

Unlike other prisoners the potential was there for him to "pay his own way" so pardon me if I excuse that argument in his case.

[HughMungus]

Considering the pure hell they put their victims through it's only appropriate IMHO that I give up a sense of closure to ensure they get the proper punishment they're due. Death is the easy way out. Suffering 40, 60, 80 years is much worse....maybe I'm being sadistic but if it was my family member as the victim I'd want justice to be slow, methodical, and ruthless.

I used to think that way. But like I think I said earlier: some people fear only death and the possibility in their minds, however slight, that there might not be an afterlife or that they are going straight to hell. Another fear that the death penalty provides to possible criminals is the fear of losing control over your own fate. Not only are you going to die, you are going to die when we say and how we say. And you're not going to die in some glorious way -- we're going to put you down like an animal. Takes any glory there might be out of being a gangsta.

[blyslv]

You're AGAINST the death penalty but FOR prison rape?

Well duh!

Actually it was a crude attempt at humor and irreverance. But the "death penalty" is a state imposed sanction. As citizens we all have a stake and some ability to determine if and how it is applied. Prison rape on the other hand is a "private" crime committed amonst individuals. There is a significant difference.

And if forced to, I would unequivically state that I am AGAISNT prison rape, except in cases involving consenting adults.

[blyslv]

No, but I would take a hell of a lot more solace in the fact that the death penalty can prevent more murders.

Since you like using loose analogies that are on a personal level:

You are a juror that finds a multiple murderer guilty. He doesn't get put to death. He has his gang buddies kill you, your family, the other jurors, and their famalies in retaliation for a guilty verdict. Would you take solace in giving this guy HBO, a warm cell, and access to good drugs for the rest of his life while he laughs at the fact that you're all dead?

Prison doesn't stop gang leaders, organized crime lords, or the like from jack shit. Money that could be used for better purposes is tied up taking care of these folks. The money to house a dangerous murderer could feed starving famalies here.[/quote]

1. If my analogy on the personal level offended you, I apologize, that was not my intent.

2. You scenario is implausible in the extreme. See my above post about hard cases and bad law. I know that criminals retaliate agaisnt jurors, but not on the scale you suggest. I can't predict how I would react in that situation. It is quite possible that in the "heat of the moment" I would, if I had a weapon, use it. It's one reason I don't have a weapon. I don't trust myself. But that is besides the point. If the death penalty did not exist, it wouldn't be an issue.

3. HBO, warm cell and good drugs ... again, another red herring. The variation within prison systems is so wide, that no one can state that is how every 1rst Degree murderer is treated. To the extent that they are, I would advocate that they do not have HBO.

4. You contradict yourself. First you say that the death penalty prevents more murders. Then you say that prison doesn't stop jack shit (which I think is mostly true). It is my understanding of the research that that proposition is incorrect and that in fact states with the death penalty have a higher rate of murder. One possible reason for this is that people see how little life is valued in that jursidiciton and so feel freer to murder. I don't know.

If you are suggesting that executing the murderer will lead to less deaths, that is also a dubious proposition, especially if they spend the rest of their life in prison.

[joel the ornery]

Bring out your dead!

[Rob the Wop]

I used an implausible and emotional scenario to counter yours, that is all.

Hey Rob, I guess I know where you come down on the "collateral damage" issue. And when they arrest you based on a witness' description of a "tall hairy man with a jewish nose" for muder one (as happened to a freind of mine in college. They held him 3 days, but maybe if it was Texas they woulda killed him) you can take solace in the fact that at least some guilty people were also aressted.

A) Using the term 'collateral damage' in such a manner implies I hold a specific stance on civilian deaths in a military situation. That term is not common usage for legal situations and you know this. Apple and orange, ad hominum argument.

B) You imply your friend might have been killed in Texas after three days of being a suspect. Pretty extreme, don't ya think? Obviously sarcasm, but an attempt to trivialize just the same.

C) By saying that 'some' guilty people would also be arrested- you are trying to draw a similiarity of the '1 in a thousand' innocent/guilty ratio in execution cases and make it seem instead as if in the majority of execution cases- the killer is really innocent.

I fully recognize the flaws in the scenario I put forth. It was a blatant and illogical appeal to emotion, based upon unresearched facts. Touche'.

The reality of it is that I see execution as a just punishment for first degree murder. While our legal system is not perfect, most systems are not perfect either. You can't outlaw cars if one kills someone from mechanical failure, or remove the police because some are corrupt. The defendant can only be convicted if it is beyond a reasonable doubt that they performed the deed, and this is decided upon upon by a jury of their peers. Unlike civil cases where they simply have to believe you did it.

Jailbreaks, murder in prison, retaliation- I would suspect the deaths caused by these factors are far greater than the number of innocents killed on death row. Therefore, I believe the benefits of capital punishment far outweighs the detriments.

Capital punishment as a deterant factor is greatly reduced when people can spend 25 some odd years on death row. If you can die of old age waiting to be executed, it's really not that threatening.

Tying the murder rates in states with a death penalty is a really tough stretch. There are far too many variables to tie them toghether. Gang activity, drug usage, poverty levels, domestic violence stats, population, etc. A more accurate statistic would have to be a per capita measurement including the many above factors. Then you could get a better place to point a finger.

As to the contradiction, look again. If the death penalty were implemented with a time based limitation on appeals, they would no longer be around to cause other deaths. Keeping them alive in prison was what I meant wouldn't stop jack shit.

[Bin Noddin]

Rabbi Hillel:

אף הוא ראה גולגולת אחת צפה על פני המים; אמר לה, על דאטיפת אטיפוך, וסוף מטיפייך יטופון

Moreover he saw a skull floating on the face of the water, and he said to it, "Because thou drownedst others, they drowned thee, and in the end they that drowned thee shall themselves be drowned".