will Arnold let Tookie live?

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:26 pm

blyslv wrote:
HughMungus wrote:You're AGAINST the death penalty but FOR prison rape?
Well duh!

Actually it was a crude attempt at humor and irreverance. But the "death penalty" is a state imposed sanction. As citizens we all have a stake and some ability to determine if and how it is applied. Prison rape on the other hand is a "private" crime committed amonst individuals. There is a significant difference.

And if forced to, I would unequivically state that I am AGAISNT prison rape, except in cases involving consenting adults.

Then don't joke about it. Having to fear that going to prison = being violently beaten into submission and raped is perhaps the most disgusting aspect of the American prison system.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:02 am

Tookie Williams San Quentin protest video here:
http://www.brightpathvideo.com
if links have probs goto
http://www.indybay.org

this represents about 70-75% of presenters. That night saw the biggest crowd I have ever seen. Will try to live stream the next one...a real deathfest in northern cal so sick, my apologies to the peaceful and the angelic

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:29 am

Humor does have it's place in dealing with touchy subjects and should not be quickly dismissed as being inappropriate.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:51 am

If it was your wife/daughter/son/husband most if not all would want to throw the switch or push the plunger.

Yeah, but I don't know if the state should be in the business of providing revenge for some small selection of people. and I really don't want us all to become Njal's Saga. Being a viking was all very well and good for Vikings, but it's not a sociaty I'd chose to live in.

He was found guilty which, means in a criminal trial, beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's the social meaning we ascribe to a trial. The one in a 1000 rate posited above is off by two orders of magnitude. And one in ten is actually a little low, more like one in 7. I don't know what really goes on in a trial, but I'm coming to see it as a ceremony not an inquiry.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:56 am

I didn't say anything about crime rates. I said it provides closure for victims and their friends and families.

Does it? I've never seen anything that way and what little I've seen the other seems to indicate that those who find closure seek it in themselves and their friends and thier family--not in some odd socio-gov-ment ritual.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:46 am

Kinetic IV wrote:Humor does have it's place in dealing with touchy subjects and should not be quickly dismissed as being inappropriate.

On this subject, it's never appropriate. If someone doesn't realize that then it's pointless to try to argue it.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:51 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
I didn't say anything about crime rates. I said it provides closure for victims and their friends and families.
Does it? I've never seen anything that way and what little I've seen the other seems to indicate that those who find closure seek it in themselves and their friends and thier family--not in some odd socio-gov-ment ritual.

Of course it does. Think about it: someone murders the person you love. Your options are:

(a) Go testify at their parole hearing every few years

or

(b) They are put to death and you never have to think about it again unless *YOU* want to.

In (a) you don't get to choose how it affects your life. In (b) you do. Which one provides more closure to the victims' families and friends?

Like I said, no one LIKES the death penalty. No one WANTS people to be put to death. But just like so many other things, it's a necessary evil to help combat evil deeds by evil people.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:55 am

So now it's a matter of convenience? Put them to death so we don't have to mess with it? Are we taking the consumeristic society approach a bit too far? I'm just ranting but that post hit a wrong chord with me.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:01 am

Kinetic IV wrote:So now it's a matter of convenience? Put them to death so we don't have to mess with it? Are we taking the consumeristic society approach a bit too far? I'm just ranting but that post hit a wrong chord with me.

Do you want some homicidal maniac to have control over the rest of your life? I don't. That's the power they have if they are allowed to live (either directly or indirectly). In our society, evil people should not be allowed to affect the good people negatively. Otherwise, why bother working so hard to be good at all?

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:02 am

Humorless sanctimony is not very convincing, in fact it is boring and dreary. If you want to play thread cop, start your own BBS.

Magikal · Post by **Magikal** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:07 am

HughMungus wrote:
Kinetic IV wrote:Considering the pure hell they put their victims through it's only appropriate IMHO that I give up a sense of closure to ensure they get the proper punishment they're due. Death is the easy way out. Suffering 40, 60, 80 years is much worse....maybe I'm being sadistic but if it was my family member as the victim I'd want justice to be slow, methodical, and ruthless.
I used to think that way. But like I think I said earlier: some people fear only death and the possibility in their minds, however slight, that there might not be an afterlife or that they are going straight to hell. Another fear that the death penalty provides to possible criminals is the fear of losing control over your own fate. Not only are you going to die, you are going to die when we say and how we say. And you're not going to die in some glorious way -- we're going to put you down like an animal. Takes any glory there might be out of being a gangsta.

Bingo. The biggest message Tookie's death sent to any gang banger wannabe was, "You will not go down in a glorious hail of bullets, remembered by your friends as a brave, fearless warrior. You will be strapped down to a bed, with the families of the people you murdered watching in contempt, while you are put down like a rabid dog." That is the message that is sent.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:16 am

Bingo.

What he said. ^^^^^^^

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:19 am

blyslv wrote:Humorless sanctimony is not very convincing, in fact it is boring and dreary. If you want to play thread cop, start your own BBS.

Rape is not funny. If you think it is, you have problems. Not playing "thread cop", just offering my opinion on yours. Ignore me at will.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:22 am

I'm wondering at what point in this thread does the realization dawn on the readers that this is one of a few universal issues that'll see no resolution.

Wrestlin pigs I think best describes it. It isn't likely that any of points put forth here will convince those standing on the other side of the fence.

BTW, I'm inclined to agree with the 'humorless sanctimony' comment.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:32 am

HughMungus wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
I didn't say anything about crime rates. I said it provides closure for victims and their friends and families.
Does it? I've never seen anything that way and what little I've seen the other seems to indicate that those who find closure seek it in themselves and their friends and thier family--not in some odd socio-gov-ment ritual.

Of course it does. Think about it: someone murders the person you love. Your options are:

(a) Go testify at their parole hearing every few years

or

(b) They are put to death and you never have to think about it again unless *YOU* want to.

In (a) you don't get to choose how it affects your life. In (b) you do. Which one provides more closure to the victims' families and friends?

B*llSh*t!
My sister died by vehicular manslaughter. I didn't wait for closure from some f*cking court nor did I let the fact that that Mr. F*ckhead never paid the restitution interfere with "closure." I live my life without her. I don't dwell on her death. Admittedly it's not "murder" but people find closure because they seek it. If they let some external event(s) or non-event(s) rule their lives, they've chosen to. That's their problem.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:37 am

As far as I know, there is no cure for the common cold. However, that does not stop us from discussing our own home remedies. We won't cure it by talking about it but we may, in the process, help one another feel better.

Not a crime: Homosexuality
Crime: Pretending you are gay just so you can act like a faggot.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:51 am

It isn't likely that any of points put forth here will convince those standing on the other side of the fence.

I strongly disagree with that statement and not because of my bias against the author. I feel this has been a very good discussion, a very worthwhile one.

I'm wondering at what point in this thread does the realization dawn on the readers that this is one of a few universal issues that'll see no resolution.

So are we supposed to stick our heads in the sand and pray that it will go away and someone else will resolve it for us? It takes discussions like this all over the country to start the process of change. And for such a heated topic this has been a remarkably civil discussion which is quite impressive.

(Edited to correct spelling only)

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:21 pm

Isotopia wrote:I'm wondering at what point in this thread does the realization dawn on the readers that this is one of a few universal issues that'll see no resolution.

Wrestlin pigs I think best describes it. It isn't likely that any of points put forth here will convince those standing on the other side of the fence.

It'll never be resolved but it might knock a few people off the fence.

BTW, I'm inclined to agree with the 'humorless sanctimony' comment.

Oh, sorry. I didn't know violent sexual assault was so damn funny.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:26 pm

B*llSh*t!
My sister died by vehicular manslaughter. I didn't wait for closure from some f*cking court nor did I let the fact that that Mr. F*ckhead never paid the restitution interfere with "closure." I live my life without her. I don't dwell on her death. Admittedly it's not "murder" but people find closure because they seek it. If they let some external event(s) or non-event(s) rule their lives, they've chosen to. That's their problem.[/quote]

I said: which one provides MORE closure not which one provides closure and which one doesn't.

Bin Noddin · Post by **Bin Noddin** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:31 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
I don't know what really goes on in a trial, but I'm coming to see it as a ceremony not an inquiry.

That's the weak spot in the system. One of the toughest days for me in court was not as a lawyer but when I was called as a witness to a dispute in which I had thorough knowledge of both sides. I was not free to tell the story - I could only answer the narrow questions posed by the lawyers, questions designed to further their clients' purposes, not to inform the judge of the full picture. They danced around the truth, biting off the little bits that suited them and carefully avoiding the rest. Its not about the truth at all. I believe that a murderer forfeits his own life and the death penalty is a legitimate option for society to impose. The headache is that too many convictions turn out to be wrong, and whether one in a thousand or ten in a thousand, any number of wrongly executed people is too many.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:45 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
............B*llSh*t!........... f*cking.............. F*ckhead............

I know I would feel better about it...
...and I`m sure you really want to...
So
Will you please just come on out and say it???

Quit being so cute and add another letter...
...Scream it at the world.....we won`t mind...

......FUCK!!! FUCK! FUCK!

There. That`s much better isn`t it?

sorry I suppose that should have gone in the complaining thread...

...ah fuck it.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:07 pm

Bin Noddin wrote:[ I believe that a murderer forfeits his own life and the death penalty is a legitimate option for society to impose. .

Legitimate? Yes, in the narrow sense that it accord to estabished procedure and that the sovereign creates and adminsters it.

The best way to deal with First Degree Murderers? Not by a long shot.

HM: Have you ever heard of black humor? It's long been a well accepted strategy for dealing with terrible things. Hang around people who work in ERs, newsrooms or any number of grim places and you'll hear plenty of it. Lecturing people on a fact that is perfectly obvious (rape is bad) and attempting to stifle their conversations is just very poor form. I suggest you take your own advice about ignoring people and apply it me when you feel my humor has gone beyond the pale.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:25 pm

EDB--I'm posting from work. And you know, a couple hours later, I don't really have to. It's wrong, but I've been dealt so many wrongs that now I'm living my life in the best way I can find to make me happy. Life is always too short. Getting hung up on one set of details only diminishes the amount of joy you do get. Don't cheat yourself. Especially if someone else cheated you already.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:35 pm

blyslv wrote:HM: Have you ever heard of black humor? It's long been a well accepted strategy for dealing with terrible things. Hang around people who work in ERs, newsrooms or any number of grim places and you'll hear plenty of it.

Yes, in those places, among themselves. Is this one of those places? No.

Lecturing people on a fact that is perfectly obvious (rape is bad) and attempting to stifle their conversations is just very poor form.

I wasn't addressing the fact, "rape is bad". I was addresing your opinion that it's a joking matter.

I suggest you take your own advice about ignoring people and apply it me when you feel my humor has gone beyond the pale.

Ignoring you gives you tacit approval. I wouldn't give even that kind of approval to a comment like yours.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:04 pm

sorry Crypto I was trying to be a little humorous
with a pertinent point...not trying to interfere with any healing processes...
sorry about your loss. I know very well how it feels to lose someone......and the feeling that the world is against you can be hard to shake sometimes,...especially when a review of all the available evidence confirms that it is stacked up against you...it can be quite a struggle. That`s when I am so thankful for the few really close friends I have and a lover who can make the noise and pain disappear with an understanding look and a much cherished smile...
...and the Eplaya to occasionally rant on...
...I know we are on different sides of the death penalty fence, and we probably will remain that way, ..unless YOU change your mind(snicker)
..but I do read and appreciate your views and posts.
I`ll try not to pick on you, but
I find that indulging these foolish little compulsive convulsions of mine
lessens the frequency of the more severe uncontrollable ones.

sorry if I offended....

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:15 pm

Isotopia wrote:I'm wondering at what point in this thread does the realization dawn on the readers that this is one of a few universal issues that'll see no resolution.

perhaps. I look at the responses to this issue as a barometer for personal evolution. You can therefore only be expected to comment based on your current understanding. I was in favor of the Robert Alton Harris execution at that time. I had young boys in my family then . Young boys were Harris' victims. Living so close to the house of death has probably had some impact on my personal change around this issue and also reading about one of the monks persecuted by brutal Chinese invaders during the Tibet occupation, who said that his chief worry was that, through the suffering, he might loose his sense of compassion. Wow. Sure, who's going to say that the crimes against the innocent aren't horrible. What surfaces for me, is the sheer humanity and identification with the other that capital punishment brings up. I believe in lifelong incarceration for the worse of offenses, but the state has no business killing the criminal or the condemned in my name. Sorry. The mechanics, the act, the institutionalization of the death penalty , is profoundly repugnant.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:00 pm

cowboyangel wrote:You can therefore only be expected to comment based on your current understanding.

Subtle!

the state has no business killing the criminal or the condemned in my name.

One powerful argument for the death penalty is that it helps maintain a lawful society. If the state, even in its slow-moving way, doesn't put people to death, people will put other people to death without the benefit of trial by jury. Is that better?

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:48 am

cowboyangel wrote:I look at the responses to this issue as a barometer for personal evolution. You can therefore only be expected to comment based on your current understanding.

how is the view from the pedestal you have placed yourself and your opinions upon?

Magikal · Post by **Magikal** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:35 am

Kinetic IV wrote:It takes discussions like this all over the country to start the process of change. And for such a heated topic this has been a remarkably civil discussion which is quite impressive.

It has, hasn't it? Civil group, by & large, I'm impressed too. I've always believed in discussing all topics, without flinching, which puts me at odds with a lot of people.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:14 pm

joel the ornery wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:I look at the responses to this issue as a barometer for personal evolution. You can therefore only be expected to comment based on your current understanding.
how is the view from the pedestal you have placed yourself and your opinions upon?

oh come on Joel. I believe my statement is truthful regardless of my personal evolution, which is still a piece of work...