Landmark Forums i.e. EST is targeting Burners

[cowgirl]

and using the image of Burning Man.

this is a self help cult. i saw my good friend robbed of all her college tuition by these freaks. they wouldn't leave her alone until all her money was gone and her life ruined. then they dumped her. i lived with her at the time and they'd call at all hours of the night and day. when her mother found out who they really were she freaked, but by then it was too late.

they were EST in the 70s and have renamed themselves.

burners beware.

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[cowgirl]

http://tribes.tribe.net/landmarkforburners

[cowgirl]

heck just google est and landmark forums:

http://www.metroactive.com/landmark/landmark1-9827.html

[Lassen Forge]

I "got it" a long time ago... the "It" is self-empowerment. You don't ask, you tell them, and do.

Those who can be self-determinant on their own don't need "it", in fact, that's what scares the hell out of the people who make their money off est and it's subsequent incarnations, that if people realize they already have "it" inside them they don't need to spend their thousands doing the training, being a "graduate", etc...

How do I know? >>heh heh<< I went out with a person who was in an estie family. I even signed up for one of their "trainings", and realized just how stupid the concept was, since I already had "it". Because of the circumstance, it was (maybe still is) considered "high pressure contractural sales tactic" I was able to invoke the 72 hour clause to terminate.

They didn't like it. They fought like hell. Told me I couuldn't do it. (wrong-o.) Then that I was a failure (like I gave a shit), I'd never get this mysterious "It" (I already had "it", and didn't need to give them my cash to prove it) , that they wouldn't like me any more and would be shunned (like, whoop-de-doo, by then I waas tired of their manipulative BS) , etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum

I told them I already had "it", that I *was* terminating the contract as provided by law, that they *were* giving my money back, and if not I *was* contacting my attorney. Not asking them if I could, but telling them what I was going to do. Just like telling them "I'm going to go pee". NOt ask, but tell them what you're gonna do, and go do it. They'll affirm that. But do you need their affirmation??

I got my money back, BTW. >>grins<<

bb

[theCryptofishist]

Anyone could attack a group they disagree with by unfairly labeling it a destructive cult. How would you know whether it really were such a cult or not? Isn't there an objective method to evaluate groups for cultic tendencies? Yes. The following early warning signs can help you reasonably determine whether or not a group is likely to be a destructive cult, and if you should be concerned about a friend, coworker, or loved one being involved with it.

The main reason that the following destructive cult tactics are so damaging to both the individual and society is because they debilitate rationality and reduce empathy. Rationality and empathy are indispensable in making good personal and social decisions. History is littered with personal and social catastrophes where a lack of rationality and lack of empathy were its core causes.

Ask yourself if the following criteria apply to the group you are concerned about.
A destructive cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of its members' behavior. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail not only what members believe, but also what members wear and eat, when and where members work, sleep, and bathe, and how members think, speak, and conduct familial, marital, or sexual relationships.

A destructive cult tends to have an ethical double standard. Members are urged to be obedient to the cult, to carefully follow cult rules. They are also encouraged to be revealing and open in the group, confessing all to the leaders. On the other hand, outside the group they are encouraged to act unethically, manipulating outsiders or nonmembers, and either deceiving them or simply revealing very little about themselves or the group. In contrast to destructive cults, honorable groups teach members to abide by one set of ethics and act ethically and truthfully to all people in all situations.

A destructive cult has only two basic purposes: recruiting new members and fund-raising. Altruistic movements, established religions, and other honorable groups also recruit and raise funds. However, these actions are incidental to an honorable group's main purpose of improving the lives of its members and of humankind in general. Destructive cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality such claims are superficial and only serve as gestures or fronts for recruiting and fund-raising. A cult's real goal is to increase the prestige and often the wealth of the leader.

A destructive cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the ONLY viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. But these claims are empty and only used to recruit members who are then surreptitiously subjected to mind control to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.

A destructive cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes. There is no appeal outside his or her system to a greater system of justice. For example, if a schoolteacher feels unjustly treated by a principal, an appeal can be made to the superintendent. In a destructive cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.

A destructive cult's leader is a self-appointed messianic person claiming to have a special mission in life. For example, leaders of flying saucer cults claim that beings from outer space have commissioned them to lead people away from Earth, so that only the leaders can save them from impending doom.

A destructive cult's leader centers the veneration of members upon himself or herself. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and other leaders of genuinely altruistic movements focus the veneration of adherents on God or a set of ethical principles. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.

A destructive cult's leader tends to be determined, domineering, and charismatic. Such a leader effectively persuades followers to abandon or alter their families, friends, and careers to follow the cult. The leader then takes control over followers' possessions, money, time, and lives.

http://www.factnet.org/headlines/destru ... ml?FACTNet
Googled "cult warning signs" for that. It's always good to have some specific criteria to go with that "punched in the gut" feeling that's telling you something's wrong.

[cowgirl]

good for you!

my roommate was 19 years old and her hot boyfriend hooked her into it.

i used to call them 'interzone' when they'd phone her.

if i had to hear the word 'breakthrough' one more time i was going to rip them apart!

once i asked to speak with a mental health care professional in their organization and the women on the phone got very uptight with me and said they didn't have any.

[theCryptofishist]

Good for you, Sue. Growing up in Berkeley in the 70s, my cult radar is pretty good and I give them a wide berth, but it's good to hear experience from someone who's slipped the noose.


I hate cults.

and yes, I do some "bm is a cult" grumbling from time to time. But that's only a metaphor when I do. it aint perfect and I have quarrells with various persons at various times, but if you're spending a week in the desert not eating enough protien, that's because you didn't pack right, not because someone's trying to take over your life.

[cowgirl]

my college roommate was from redwood city.

what happens to her the moment she leaves california for the first time in her life?

gets hooked on EST in providence, rhode island!

[Kinetic IV]

I had never heard of this stuff until today. And from what I've read I want no part of it. A look at the Wikipedia entry on est really solidified it. Steer clear.

[cowgirl]

they are using the image of the man on the tribe posting.

can anyone in the org sue them or write a cease and desist letter????

[the fire elf]

i did the landmark forum 'cult' thing for a bit...

yes, they were prone to use compulsion to maintain a steady influx of virgins...

yet i do consider what i learned there to be invaluable...just set a firm intention to bail at the end of the advanced course...

~who i am the possibility of inspiring and enlightening the world
(according to landmark)

[cowgirl]

how much money did that cost you?

[the fire elf]

though i did have to hop through a couple other cults after that before i learned enough to deprogram myself

[the fire elf]

i've always just manifested what i need...through others

didn't count $

[elf's sword]

(i prefer to do my own self-programming)

[theCryptofishist]

they are using the image of the man on the tribe posting.

can anyone in the org sue them or write a cease and desist letter????

Yes, the lawyers and the LLC take that very seriously. actiongrl is a member of this board and works in the bm office. She may be on leave right now, but pm her anyway. PM Emily Sparkle. the phone number for the office is 415 TOF-LAME. (415 863-5263) Call and leave a message--the office staff should hear and let the appropriate people know. Unfortunately, I'm not an insider, so I don't have the "bat phone" number, but if you start letting people know they should do something. Also if you post a message in the eplaya feedback with a really alarmist title the admin are likely to see it.

[elf's ride]

[quote="theCryptofishist"][quote="cowgirl"]"bat phone" number, but if you start letting people know they should do something.[/quote]

i hope they do the forum...

'fraid they might like it...

[cowgirl]

chicken john just wrote this to me:

People in Burning Man LLC have gone to landmark forum. And reccomend it.

if this is true then i'm concerned.

[Kinetic IV]

Even if the senior staff likes the stuff I'm thinking back to Pepsi's use of the man in the London Underground ads and their response to that....I hope that enforcement of the rules is equal for all.

[elf's sword]

[quote="cowgirl"]i'm concerned.[/quote]


then why don't you mount a counter-crusade?

doing nothing won't get you anywhere...

[Lassen Forge]

Never know, they may well have licensed them to use a variation.

>>shrug<< Maybe it's part of their corporate culture. I don't know the internals of it well enough to know.

bb

[theCryptofishist]

Oh poof.
My impression from watching the llc over the past few years is that they are protective of the image ect. of bm. Very protective. I wouldn't mess with them on these issues.

[Lassen Forge]

The key is to watch. IF they have, then they won't do anything, and you'll have your answer. If they haven't, they'lll write the letter, or come toa "marketing arrangement", and you'll have your answer, or not.

The inner sanctum is deep and mysterious and it is not to me to tell them what to or not to do. IF they wnt to do that, fine. After all, aside from my fun working with them, it's just a camping trip. And a bonfire at the end!

bb

[cowgirl]

beyond the black rock city there are lots of people out there who are connected to this event. some of those people are maleable. it just worries me a lot. and offends the shit outta me.

[theCryptofishist]

Never know, they may well have licensed them to use a variation.

my gut sez no. But my gut tells me that daily eating of icecream is a good idea.

>>shrug<< Maybe it's part of their corporate culture. I don't know the internals of it well enough to know.

Some of those cults (and I think est, like synanon) have sort of two levels one that "works" but the seminars serve as a recruiting ground for the level of suck your brains out of your head. THe other week someone in this office called Franklin Covey a cult and I have to say that that's half right. Although I've never heard anything that points to their having an underbelly like est, the top level would sort of match.

[Lassen Forge]

Never know, they may well have licensed them to use a variation.

my gut sez no. But my gut tells me that daily eating of icecream is a good idea.

It IS a good idea... Eat... Eaaattt... IIIIIce Creeeeam.. Eeeeeeeat it! >giggles<

>>shrug<< Maybe it's part of their corporate culture. I don't know the internals of it well enough to know.

Some of those cults have sort of two levels - one that "works" but the seminars serve as a recruiting ground for the level of suck your brains out of your head.

Some say Apokiliptika is a cult. Some say the org is a cult. Some say Blue oyter is a Cult. >grins<

Unlike most cults, however, Apokiliptika doesn't deny being one. And we won't suck your brain out, we'll just... hmmm... wash it. >grins<

The org in a way is like a cult, tho... thousands of "unwashed, dirty masses" >giggles< who pay tons of money to go, some even to go *and* work there. Those who are somewhat in charge acting as buffer, keeping the lowly intheir place. And the top, who may want to know the pulse of the city but can't, either de their own fame or the actions of those below them to feed them what they want to hear, not what really is...

It's not unlike other events. It's just sad to see it here, knowing some of those in the org is so awesome, and those below them can be so... I dunno... catty?

bb

(Edited to delete a stray line. Sorry.)

[the fire elf]

no sorry's please...

just >giggles<

[Jungfraueigerbane]

[quote="cowgirl"]offends the shit outta me.[/quote]

yeah... that can happen sometimes...

[Isotopia]

People in Burning Man LLC have gone to landmark forum. And reccomend it.

if this is true then i'm concerned.

Keep in mind the source. It's Chicken fer fucks sake. The same Chicken John who'll be heading off to Tibet pretty soon. Hard to believe. Still, I can't imagine a better person to stir things up over there.

[Jungfraueigerbane]

i can