will Arnold let Tookie live?

[Simply Joel]

Apparently, this execution wasn't sufficiently noteworthy enough for protests.

[Jungfraueigerbane]

If the state, even in its slow-moving way, doesn't put people to death, people will put other people to death without the benefit of trial by jury. Is that better?

ever consider putting people to life?

[Jungfraueigerbane]

If they let some external event(s) or non-event(s) rule their lives, they've chosen to. That's their problem.

it becomes your problem when their actions contravene yours

[Jungfraueigerbane]

Ignoring you gives you tacit approval.

bullshit...

it may simply be a conservation of energy until an effective opportunity presents itself...

letting someone sit in blissful ignorance until you destroy their sense of self has a certain savory tinge to it...

[cowboyangel]

Tavis Smiley had an interesting show yesterday (Fri Dec. 16)
http://www.tavistalks.com/TTcom/TSradio ... 21605.html
debating the death penalty and the Tookie Williams case. I think I heard guest Brian Stevenson from the Equal Justice Initiative, say that 1 in 9 condemned are innocent. He drew the parallel that if those were the odds for airline flight, who would fly? ...so why should we execute with those odds?...check this out, I believe I heard it right.

also, here's the facts page from Mike Farrell's website, Death Penalty Focus

Facts
There are many reasons the death penalty should be abolished. It is a complex issue and it is difficult to point to any single fact or argument as the most important. Below are a number of extremely valid reasons that the state of California should stop the practice of capital punishment.

Capital punishment does not deter crime.
Scientific studies have consistently failed to demonstrate that executions deter people from committing crime. The respected Thorsten Sellin studies of the United States in 1962, 1967 and 1980 concluded that the death penalty was not a deterrent.


The USA is unable to prevent accidental execution of innocent people.
The wrongful execution of an innocent person is an injustice that can never be rectified. Since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 119 men and women have been released from Death Row....some only minutes away from execution.


Race plays a role in determining who lives and who dies.
Race is an important factor in determining who is sentenced to die. In 1990 a report from the General Accounting Office concluded that "in 82 percent of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e. those who murdered whites were more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."


The death penalty is applied at random.
Politics, quality of legal counsel and the jurisdiction where a crime is committed are more often the determining factors in a death penalty case than the facts of the crime itself. The death penalty is a lethal lottery: of the 22,000 homicides committed every year aproximately 150 people are sentenced to death.


Capital punishment goes against almost every religion.
Although isolated passages of the Bible have been quoted in support of the death penalty, almost all religious groups in the United States regard executions as immoral.


The USA is keeping company with notorious human rights abusers.
The vast majority of countries in Western Europe, North America and South America — more than 117 nations worldwide — have abandoned capital punishment in law or in practice. The United States remains in the same company as Iraq, Iran and China as one of the major advocates and users of capital punishment.


Executions are carried out at staggering cost to taxpayers.
It costs more to execute a person than to keep him or her in prison for life. A 1993 California study argues that each death penalty case costs at least $1.25 million more than a regular murder case and a sentence of life without possibility of parole.


Millions could be diverted to helping the families of murder victims.
Families of murder victims undergo severe trauma and loss which no one should minimize. However, executions do not help these people heal their wounds nor do they end their pain; the extended process prior to executions prolongs the agony of the family. Families of murder victims would benefit far more if the funds now being used for the costly process of executions were diverted to the provision of counseling and other assistance.


Incompetent Counsel is a Persistent Problem
A study at Columbia University found that in 68% of all capital cases reviewed between 1973 and 1995 the state and federal courts found errors sufficiently serious to require retrial or resentencing.


There is a better alternative.
California judges have the option of sentencing convicted capital murderers to life in prison without the possibility of parole. There are currently over 2,700 people in California who have received this alternative sentence which includes a limited appeals process. According to the Governor's Office, only three people sentenced to life without parole has been released since the state provided for this option in 1977, and this occurred because they were able to prove their innocence.


This page was updated on April 25, 2005.

[Simply Joel]

"If we are to abolish the death penalty, I should like to see the first step taken by my friends the murderers."
-- Alphonse Karr (1808-1890)


PRO DEATH PENALTY WEBPAGE

National Center for Policy Analysis

Pro Death Penalty.com loads very slowly

CBA... I'll see your two links and raise you two. seriously though, it appears you need to spend more time convincing your legislators. I don't require convincing. If the law allows the death penalty, so be it... until the legislature, courts and/or governor changes it.

Governor George Ryan imposed a moratorium on the death penalty 5 years ago in Illinois... but it didn't change the law for those convicted and sentenced after he left office.

of course, some believe his moratorium was a cheap political manuever...

How corruption, fraud, and cronyism taught him to hate the death penalty.

bottom line... the death penalty in California will be overturned in Sacramento, not at the front gates of a prison.

[Kinetic IV]

bottom line... the death penalty in California will be overturned in Sacramento, not at the front gates of a prison.

The motivation for any legislators in Sacramento or almost any state capital to get off their derrieres and do anything begins with either grassroots activism or a damn good lobbying effort, ie: $$$$$$$ ...like what happened at the prison gates. You have to start somewhere....

[Simply Joel]

i think at your local legislator's office is a better place to start.

in front of the prison is grandstanding... and not very effective IMHO.

protesting in front of the prison certainly didn't change my position on tookie and/or any other scheduled execution.

[Kinetic IV]

i think at your local legislator's office is a better place to start.

in front of the prison is grandstanding... and not very effective IMHO.

protesting in front of the prison certainly didn't change my position on tookie and/or any other scheduled execution.

I agree. However coming in with increased awareness through the media usually doesn't hurt either.

And those protests may not have changed your opinion but...there's a bunch of very impressionable people out there that very well could have been swayed making it worth the time and effort expended.

[Simply Joel]

and yet, a convicted murderer was executed under California law.

[Kinetic IV]

Yes Tookie, a convicted murderer was murdered by the state. The cause lost one battle (that was not insignificant...but none of these cases are). The war is far from over though.

[cowboyangel]

bottom line... the death penalty in California will be overturned in Sacramento, not at the front gates of a prison.

it all helps brother...it all helps.....

[Simply Joel]

K4, tookie was executed by the state, not murdered as you proclaim.

[Kinetic 5.75]

To Whom It May Concern

Websters's Definitions

Execution

Ex`e`cu´tion
n. 1. The act of executing; a carrying into effect or to completion; performance; achievement; consummation; as, the execution of a plan, a work, etc.
2. A putting to death as a legal penalty; death lawfully inflicted; as, the execution of a murderer; to grant a stay of execution.
3. The act of the mode of performing a work of art, of performing on an instrument, of engraving, etc.; as, the execution of a statue, painting, or piece of music.
4. The mode of performing any activity; as, the game plan was excellent, but its execution was filled with mistakes.
5. (Law) The carrying into effect the judgment given in a court of law.
6. That which is executed or accomplished; effect; effective work; - usually with do.
7. The act of sacking a town.

Murder

Mur´der Pronunciation: mûr´dẽrd
n. 1. The offense of killing a human being with malice prepense or aforethought, express or implied; intentional and unlawful homicide.
v. t. 1. To kill with premediated malice; to kill (a human being) willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully. See Murder, n.
[imp. & p. p. Murdered (mûr"dẽrd); p. pr. & vb. n. Murdering.]
2. To destroy; to put an end to.
3. To mutilate, spoil, or deform, as if with malice or cruelty; to mangle; as, to murder the king's English.

As you should plainly see, there is a distinct difference between murder and execution as defined. To further argue over a defined word or process is pointless.

[Kinetic IV]

The definitions of murder fit the circumstances just as well as the ones for execution do. It's all in the intrepretation.

[Kinetic 5.75]

Merriam-Webster's Law Dictionary

execution
['ek-si-'kyü-shen]


1: the act or process of executing
Example: witnessed the execution of the will

2: a putting to death as fulfillment of a judicial death sentence

3: the process of enforcing a judgment (as against a debtor)

also
: a judicial writ (as fieri facias) by which an officer is empowered to carry a judgment into effect


murder
: to kill (a human being) unlawfully and under circumstances constituting murder: to commit murder

murder
['mer-der]

partly from Old English morthor; partly from Old French murdre, of Germanic origin

: the crime of unlawfully and unjustifiably killing another under circumstances defined by statute (as with premeditation)

esp
: such a crime committed purposely, knowingly, and recklessly with extreme indifference to human life or during the course of a serious felony (as robbery or rape)
(compare cold blood cooling time homicide manslaughter)
Note: Self-defense, necessity, and lack of capacity for criminal responsibility (as because of insanity) are defenses to a charge of murder. Most state statutes and the U.S. Code divide murder into two degrees. Florida, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania currently have three degrees of murder. Some states do not assign degrees of murder


As you SHOULD NOW plainly see, THE LAW has defined a difference between exectution and murder. As such, arguments of the nature of the previous post ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY LAW.

[Simply Joel]

It's all in the intrepretation.

excuse the fuck out of me... but i believe what you are actually doing is "mis-interpretation."

[Kinetic IV]

Emotional arguments with a slight religious slant will not always mesh well with legal definitions.

You do have a great point however, I acknowledge it and I'll stop replying to this particular tangent so it doesn't derail what's been an interesting thread so far. It's more interesting to get a wider viewpoint on this than to trumpet my own beliefs.

[Kinetic 5.75]

What should be the judgement against a person who willfully caused the death of a motorist who was blinded by the headlights of a vehicle behind aforementioned vehicle who crashed because of the willfull aggressive driving of the offending vehicle?

[Kinetic IV]

Depends on the circumstances.... Many of which are being omitted in the prior post and would be in violation of a CCL to appear over here. I don't intend to address outside issues here that are irrelevant to this particular discussion and also deal with hypothetical situations.

In any event why are you attacking me by bringing up outside stuff instead of attacking the ideas presented?

[Kinetic 5.75]

I merely presented the LEGAL definitions of murder and execution. This fully counters, in a LEGAL manner, your argument that state sanctioned execution is murder. Which it is not by legal definition. If you wish to challenge law, you must do so by having said law changed, because in the opionion of the law is the opinion which stands.
The other is a situation which I was asking an opinion on, a violation of a CCL it is not, the material in which this question was asked was not quoted nor copied. So your objection is nullified.

[madmatt]

I'm totally opposed to the death penalty, no matter who it is.

BUT...I'm so fuckin frustrated and pissed and disappointed that the anti-death penalty movement picks such repulsive, non-repentant, non-sympathetic fucks like Tookie, that they are undermining their own cause.

By making Tookie a posterboy for defeating the death penalty, they probably helped perpetuate the death penalty for years to come.

[HughMungus]

Ignoring you gives you tacit approval.

bullshit...

it may simply be a conservation of energy until an effective opportunity presents itself...

letting someone sit in blissful ignorance until you destroy their sense of self has a certain savory tinge to it...

Once upon a time my mother had a contractor come in to give us a bid on re-tiling our kitchen floor. At one point he said, "You can save money by doing all the nigger work like pulling up the old tiles yourself." My mother said, "Get out of my house right now."

Now, what do you think her five children would have thought about the acceptability of a comment like that if she had said nothing?

When my friends say something that I think is wrong, I say something to them. I'm certainly going to do the same here in our community.

Some of you might think that since society at large has this bizarre sense of humor about prison rape that it is somehow acceptable. It's not. If you do think it's OK, maybe you should think hard about what it is your are actually saying.

[cowboyangel]

I'm totally opposed to the death penalty, no matter who it is.

BUT...I'm so fuckin frustrated and pissed and disappointed that the anti-death penalty movement picks such repulsive, non-repentant, non-sympathetic fucks like Tookie, that they are undermining their own cause.

By making Tookie a posterboy for defeating the death penalty, they probably helped perpetuate the death penalty for years to come.

Are you so sure that he wasn't telling the truth? As far as I know, a jailhouse snitch was instrumental in putting Tookie away...a guy whose testimony was refuted by a cellmate. Refering to Tookie as a "poster boy" is language borrowed from right-wing radio and media. Try looking at the videos I posted on my site to see what people who knew the guy had to say about him
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/tookie1.mov
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/tookie2.mov

[Magikal]

Are you so sure that he wasn't telling the truth? As far as I know, a jailhouse snitch was instrumental in putting Tookie away...a guy whose testimony was refuted by a cellmate.

Sorry, can't say I regret seeing him go...

http://realclearpolitics.com/Commentary ... 05_JL.html

Williams died for executing four unarmed people during two 1979 robberies, shooting a woman in the face, and laughing uncontrollably at the gurgling sounds a male victim made as he died in agony.

Hayden said Williams was "railroaded," another fantasy. In the Owens killing, two accomplices said he did the shooting. In the motel case, Williams was picked up 10 minutes after the shooting of the three members of the Yang family. Shotgun shells at the motel were traced to a shotgun William purchased in 1974. Williams was living with a couple who testified that he told them details of the three murders that only the killer would know. They gave police the shotgun and said Williams kept it under his bed.

One man said Williams had bragged about killing three people who lived on Vermont Street, the location of the motel. The witness later said his testimony was coerced, but a three-judge panel on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals rejected that claim.

A fellow inmate at Los Angeles County Jail testified that Williams drew up an elaborate escape plan, which involved blowing up a van carrying prisoners from jail to court and killing guards and inmates. Handwritten notes by Williams, which featured his habit of using stars to dot his I's, corroborated the story of the plan. The fellow inmate also testified that Williams had admitted the motel murders.


December 18, 2005
Unrepentant Killers Are Nobel Candidates in Eyes of the Left
By John Leo

"Tookie" Williams, put to death by lethal injection last week in California, was a "legend" who underwent "a meaningful martyrdom that sent a lasting message to the world," according to old-time leftist Tom Hayden, formerly Mr. Jane Fonda.
"Meaningful martyrdom"? What can Hayden be talking about? Martyrs die for a cause. Williams died for executing four unarmed people during two 1979 robberies, shooting a woman in the face, and laughing uncontrollably at the gurgling sounds a male victim made as he died in agony.

Opposing the death penalty, of course, means speaking out even for people like Williams. Still, the campaign for him has been wretched excess. His book editor and friend Barbara Becnel compared him to Rosa Parks. She plans a massive funeral as well as a memorial to him in South Africa. Several people nominated him for a Nobel Peace Prize (anybody can nominate anybody, by the way.)

Because California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger denied clemency, Austrians took his name off the Arnold Schwarzenegger stadium near Graz, his hometown. A Christian political group suggested the stadium be named for Williams. In the United States, all the usual suspects have been whipping up support and sympathy for Williams, including Jesse Jackson, Joan Baez, Susan Sarandon and Snoop Dogg.

So much attention to the murderer, almost none for those he killed. So let's remember them here: Albert Owens, a veteran and father of two young girls, shot at a 7-Eleven; and three members of an Asian-American family who ran the Brookhaven Motel: Yen-I Yang, Tsai-Shai Yang and Yee-Chen Lin. In a rare bit of commentary, William John Hagan of Canada Free Press wrote: "The mainstream media has ignored the realities of the Williams case in order to promote an anti-death-penalty agenda. To present this mass murderer as a martyr is an insult to victims everywhere."

Hayden said Williams was "railroaded," another fantasy. In the Owens killing, two accomplices said he did the shooting. In the motel case, Williams was picked up 10 minutes after the shooting of the three members of the Yang family. Shotgun shells at the motel were traced to a shotgun William purchased in 1974. Williams was living with a couple who testified that he told them details of the three murders that only the killer would know. They gave police the shotgun and said Williams kept it under his bed.

One man said Williams had bragged about killing three people who lived on Vermont Street, the location of the motel. The witness later said his testimony was coerced, but a three-judge panel on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals rejected that claim.

A fellow inmate at Los Angeles County Jail testified that Williams drew up an elaborate escape plan, which involved blowing up a van carrying prisoners from jail to court and killing guards and inmates. Handwritten notes by Williams, which featured his habit of using stars to dot his I's, corroborated the story of the plan. The fellow inmate also testified that Williams had admitted the motel murders.

Williams has been riding the death-row celebrity train for some time. Jamie Foxx made a TV movie about him, "Redemption," referring to his decision to write children's books warning against the gang life. But the death row killer who writes high-minded books to promote clemency is not a new phenomenon. In his column, Hagan discusses Williams' checkered career in prison, including two instances of throwing chemicals in the eyes of guards.

In denying clemency, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger pointed out that Williams had never apologized for the murders, or even admitted committing them. A farewell message from Williams contained the lyrics of "Strange Fruit," an anti-lynching song. So the unapologetic killer apparently had no clue about how he reached death row.

The media keep converting killers into celebrities deserving of our sympathy. Gary Gilmore, a Utah murderer, was the subject of an enormous book by Norman Mailer, and the ACLU furiously pursued his cause even after Gilmore said he wanted to die. Mailer turned the killer Jack Henry Abbott into a radical-chic celeb and a sought-after Manhattan dinner guest once Mailer and other prominent folk helped get him paroled. He grew suddenly less popular when he killed again, knifing a waiter to death.

Mumia Abu-Jamal, the convicted cop-killer, is a big name on the left, enlisted to speak on National Public Radio (at least until the protests got too loud) and invited to give major talks, including commencement addresses at two colleges. Now add Williams to the list: the Rosa Parks and Nobel candidate of unrepentant killers.

[redd_18235]

I'm glad to see justice done. After all the polical posturing and agenda pushing, it comes down to this. Tookie killed 4 people in cold blood and was one of several founders of the worst gang this country has ever seen. So what if he wrote several anti-gang books. Has he ever apologized for his crimes? Has he had a change of heart? Sadly the answer is no and for this he got what he deserved. But for all the loonies who wanted to set him free though. Really, what do you think he'd do if he had his freedom? A cold hearted cereal killer set loose on the streets? That's nuts. Not many know this but there are actually very few people in the world who are truly evil. I believe Tookie falls into this category.

[EvilDustBooger]

A cold hearted cereal killer set loose on the streets? That's nuts.

I know exactly how you feel.
My son killed all the raisin bran the other morning
and most of the milk. I was furious. But I let him off with a warning.
If he only knew how close he got to receiving the ultimate penalty...
...but Love conquers all...

durned cereal killlers

[Kinetic IV]

My son killed all the raisin bran the other morning
and most of the milk.

Your son killed the raisins?



I'm shocked! How could he? I'm crushed! Oh the humanity!

[can't sit still]

Which do you consider more reprehensible? Killing a few people in cold blood or forming a gang that kills several hundred people,,,and is still killing.
Tookie probably killed more people than Josef Stalin. Stalin's organization obviously killed more people than Tookie's organization. Which is the greater crime. Does it involve personal execution or body count?
Manson didn't kill too many, his org did. How does Manson's crime compare to Tookie's?
The question at the bottom of all this is not really being addressed.
Does capital punishment deter criminals from execution[not crimes of passion] or no?
I don't think that many people here are qualified to personally answer this.
Look at countries that have severe punishments. Is there less crime?
I believe that too many people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Irresponsible actions cause a lot of misery in this world. DUI is a good example. Ask MADD. If people are made to pay for their irresponsible actions they are more likely to avoid similar actions. You can bet that Michael Fay won't be back in Singapore vandalizing cars.

I was in India. You can get 30 years for grass. You can bet your bong that very few stoners would touch the stuff over there [except in Goa]. Everyone in our group went on the wagon.

Is punishment a deterrent? I personally believe that it is. Is the death penalty a deterrent for people desiring to kill someone? I believe that it is in many cases.
If you read about 80,000 killed in India and Pakistan, it sounds bad and then eventually you go on to other news. It doesn't personally involve you. Life really isn't worth very much. Mother nature can wipe out millions and she doesn't care at all. We only see value to human life as an intraspecies viewpoint. It's only a viewpoint,,,nothing more.

Tookie's life wasn't worth a pinch of salt. Neither is mine or yours. In the grand scheme of the cosmos, we all come and go,,,just like ants. We're all mortal,,,so early or late, we're all going to go.

Our personal viewpoint is that the life of a homo sapiens is worth a lot,,,,but why? That cow that you just ate had a life. If we truly have a soul,,,it goes on with or without life. If we only have a spirit that is no more than a manifestation of bodily electrical fields,,,,does that make us valuable intrinsiclly?or in some other fashion?
What makes us worth more than an orangutan?I think that it eventually gets down to nothing more than a species viewpoint.

I would be more than happy to listen to any opinion that is the endpoint of a chain of logic. I've already heard all the opinions based on differing beliefs.
Dan

[EvilDustBooger]

What bothers me about this discussion is how so many are puzzling
about whether Tookie was "truly" sorry for his crimes or if he had a "real" change of heart.
How hard is it to be repentant and full of remorse...
...AFTER you`ve been caught???
There is nothing useful about having a change of heart after you have committed the horrible crime of murder...
...who do you think it will help; ..for you to suddenly have a change of heart after you do such a thing.....you perhaps...and maybe your mamma?
Certainly the damage has already been done, and
the way you "feel" about it after the fact shouldn`t even enter the picture when it comes to the punishment phase. It all boils down to Responsibility like CSS said and the perverted way some view the "ethics" of Justice .

It`s easy to blame it all on society and circumstance.

We need protection from murderers..
...not excuses for them.

Like Jesse James said to his brother...."You`ve got to pay Frank."